Thursday, August 23d, 1660.
A BILL for confirming to Charles Doe the Manor of
Hitcham, &c. purchased of John Clarke, was read
the First time.
Ordered, That the said Bill be read the Second time,
on Saturday next.
Mr. Jones reports Amendments to the Bill for enabling
John Newton to sell Lands for Payment of his Debts:
Which he read, with the Connection, in his Place; and
were afterwards read, by the Clerk, the First and Second
time; and, on the Question, agreed unto.
Ordered, That the said Bill be ingrossed.
Mr. Charlton reports Amendments to the Bill for Mr.
Wm. Adams' Hospital, in Newport: Which he first
read in his Place; and were afterwards read by the
Clerk, the First and Second time; and, on the Question,
Resolved, That this Bill be ingrossed.
College Leases, &c.
Mr. Pryn reports further Amendments to the Bill for
Leases from Colleges, Hospitals, &c.: Which were
read the First and Second time; and, on the Question,
Resolved, That the said Bill, with these and the former Amendments, be ingrossed.
The humble Petition of the Wardens and Commonalty of the Art or Mystery of Dyers, of the City of
London, was read.
Ordered, That the said Petition be referred to the
Committee for regulating of Woolen Manufactures, and
Encouragement of Trade and Navigation; to take the
same into their Consideration, and report their Opinion
therein to this House.
Resolved, That no private Business be entertained in
this House, on any Day, after Half an Hour after Nine
of the Clock, till further Order.
A Proviso, tendered to the Bill for Confirmation of
Leases made by Masters of Colleges, Governors of Hospitals, &c. was read, to the Effect following; viz.
"Provided always, That no Person or Persons shall
be confirmed in any Mastership, Headship, or Fellowship, in any College in either of the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, or in the Colleges of Eaton and Winchester, that is not an ordained Minister, by Bishops, or
Presbyters, where, by the Local Statutes of the said respective Colleges, Ordination is required."
Ordered, That it be referred to the Committee that
brought in the Bill, to consider of the said Bill and Proviso; and to prepare it, so as it may be ready to be
offered in Parchment, when the ingrossed Bill shall be
Marq. of Winchester.
Ordered, That the Marquis of Winchester's Bill be
read the Second time To-morrow Morning.
Settling Ministers in Livings.
Sir Edward Turner, in pursuance of the Order of Yesterday, reports Two several Provisoes, and an enacting
Clause, to be added to the Bill for settling Ministers in
their Livings: Which were read the First and Second
time: The one Proviso, concerning the Restoring of the
Rectory of Eweline in the County of Oxon, to Dr. Robert
Saunderson, Regius Professor of the University of Oxford;
to be enjoyed by him and his Successors, according to a
former Grant: The other Proviso, concerning the Restoreing and Confirming of the Rectory of Somersham, in the
County of Huntington, to Doctor Anthony Tuckney, the
present Regius Professor of Divinity in the University of
Cambridge; to be enjoyed by him and his Successors, according to a former Grant: And the said enacting Clause,
concerning the Payment of Fifths to Ministers sequestered and ejected, and not restored by this Act, during their
Lives, by Four equal Portions yearly: Which, with some
Amendments made at the Table, were, upon the Question, agreed unto.
Resolved, That the Word "Successors," voted Yesterday to be inserted in the First Part of the additional
Clause reported from the Committee, and then read,
concerning the Arrears of Fifths to sequestered Ministers,
Resolved, That the Second Part of the said Clause,
concerning Payment of the Fifths to sequestered Ministers for the future, during their Lives, be omitted.
Marq. of Newcastle, &c.
A Message from the Lords, by Doctor Hobart and
Mr. Glascock, Masters of Chancery;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords desire the Concurrence of
the Commons to these Three Bills, which concern the
Marquis of Newcastle, the Earl of Bristoll, and the Earl
And therewith the Three Bills were delivered in.
Another Message from the Lords, by Mr. Justice
Tyrrell and Mr. Baron Turner;
Mr. Speaker, The Lords have sent us to you with
this Message; to let you know, that the Marquis of Worcester hath acknowledged that the Patent of the Dukedom of Somerset was made to him, upon Conditions on
his Part to be performed, which he hath not performed;
and that therefore he hath not assumed the Place or
Title: And is willing to submit to be surrendered, or
otherwise disposed, as the King shall appoint; but that
it is in the Hands of his Son, the Lord Herbert, who is
a Member of the House of Commons: And therefore
to desire, that the Lord Herbert may deliver it up to the
Marquis of Worcester.
The Messengers being again called in, Mr. Speaker
gave them this Answer;
The House has considered of your Message; and will
return an Answer by Messengers of their own.
Ordered, That the Committee to whom the Bill concerning the Marquis of Hertford is referred, be revived;
and do sit To-morrow in the Afternoon.
Resolved, That the Message from the Lords, concerning the Patent of the Dukedom of Sommerset, be referred
to the same Committee.
Conference with Lords.
Sir Henage Finch reports that the Committee to whom
it was referred, had attended the Lords at a Conference
Yesterday; and that the Substance of the said Conference
was as followeth:
"The Conference was managed by the Lord Chancellor; who applied his Reasons to these Heads:"
"1. To the Persons involved in the Exception for
Life and Estate, as Murderers of his late Majesty:
"2. To the Four that are excepted for Life and
Estate; viz. Sir Henry Vane, Sir Arthur Hesilrigg,
Colonel Lambert, and Colonel Axtell:"
"3. To those who sat in High Courts of Justice upon
"He told us, the Lords had weighed the Reasons offered from this House, with a great Desire of Concurrence,
and Willingness to retract from their own Reason, if
they had found Cause. His Lordship observed, the Reasons urged were taken partly from his Majesty's Declaration, and partly from the Proclamation issued by Advice
of both Houses. He took notice, that his Majesty had frequently interposed, and been solicitous for the Dispatch
of this Bill; yea so far, that (as he expressed himself) no
guilty Person in the Kingdom did more desire the passing
of it, than himself: And, for the Declaration at Breda, he
said, it was not to be doubted but his Majesty would most
religiously observe it. But whereas it had been offered,
that his Majesty tendered an absolute Pardon to all Persons; and that the Exception mentioned was in the Nature of a Defeazance thereunto; and that, if a Bill had
been tendered, without an Exception, his Majesty had been
obliged to pass it: To that, his Lordship answered, True,
it was so; and had a Bill been tendered to the King,
without any Exception at all, he had been much absolved,
by concurring with the Houses, though much against
his Judgment: But his Majesty was confident, when he
sent that Message, that we would be as forward to do
him and the Nation Justice, as He to desire it: And
withal, he desired us to take notice, That Declaration
came inclosed in a Letter, which reposed an intire Confidence in the Houses of Parliament; and in which, there
is this Clause; "If there be a crying Sin for which the
Nation may be involved in the Infamy that attended it,
We cannot doubt, but that you will be as solicitous to
redeem and vindicate the Nation from that Guilt and
Infamy, as We can be:" And his Lordship said, His Majesty could never doubt, but the Parliament would have
as great Resentment of that Parricide, as the Honour
and Justice of the Nation is greatly concerned in it.
He told us, His Majesty (who was duly sensible of the
great Wound he received in that fatal Day, when the
News of it came to the Hague) bore but one Part of the
Tragedy; for the whole World was sensible of it: And
particularly instanced, that a Woman, at the Hague, hearing of it, fell down dead with Astonishment. His Lordship told us, by the way, He had the Honour to be then
employed as the Minister of his publick Affairs into the
Court of Spaine; and that the King's Majesty, that now
is, gave him in special Command, and as Part of his
Instructions in that Negotiation, that, when he treated
with the King of Spaine, he should avow and declare, that
the Murder of his Father was not looked upon, by him,
as the Act of the Parliament or People of England;
but of a very wretched, and very little, Company of
Miscreants in this Kingdom: And that his Majesty hath
the same Opinion still; not doubting but, if no Letter
had been sent with the said Declaration, to intimate, by
way of Restriction, what Use should be made of his
Declaration, yet the Parliament of England would be as
forward to except his Father's Murderers from Pardon,
as the Thing merits. And he desired us to consider, if
God had wrought this Miracle of Restitution within a
Month, or Year, or another short Time after the Fact
committed, how full of Zeal, how full of Vengeance,
had the Spirit of the Nation likely to have been. His
Lordship took notice, that his Majesty's Proclamation
was pressed, by us, out of a Tenderness we had to the
Honour of the Nation, the King, and both Houses of
Parliament, which are involved in it; and out of a Desire, that publick Invitations might not prove Snares:
To which his Lordship said, That the Lords themselves
being involved in the same Honour with us, (Aye, and the
King too) hope, the Reasons, which did satisfy their Lordships, and had satisfied his Majesty, would satisfy this
House. He did profess, that the Peers never had any
other Sense of this Proclamation, than, as a Process, or
Summons, under Pain of being excepted from any Pardon
of Life or Estate, if they came not in. He said, it was
the Sense of the King too: And it was not credible any
Man could imagine, that the King would ever have joined
with the Houses in such a Proclamation, unless he had
been confident the Houses would have meant so likewise.
His Lordship pressed further, that, let the World judge
of this Proclamation, they cannot but believe it was the
Sense of this House too; for it could not be imagined,
that, if Lisle, Say, Barkstead, Scott, who were all inserted into the Proclamation, had come in, they should have
had the Benefit of their Lives. It is true, (his Lordship
observed) the Exception of these Men, by our Votes,
was before the publishing of the Proclamation: But he
desires Pardon, if That seems not, to the Peers, of any
great Weight; for, whatsoever our Votes were, the Snare
was the same upon such of the Persons concerned, who
took notice of our Votes, not of the Proclamation; as
Scott pleads, he heard of the Proclamation, not of the
Votes. He pressed us duly to consider the Honour and
Justice of the Nation; and, what a Reproach it would
be, if such Offenders should escape Justice, after such a
Crime. He put us in mind of some Circumstances of
Aggravation: First, A Libel is lately spread abroad, that
justifies the Murder of the King, with a bare Face; yea,
justifies it, as necessary; and That on such wicked Grounds
and Arguments, as, in the Logick of it, extends to the
Person of our Sacred King that now is, should he fall
into their Hands. He told us, one of the Persons we
contend for, lurks still; and that a Serjeant at Arms being sent to apprehend him, he rescued himself; yea, the
Sheriff of that County being required to give Assistance
therein, he refused. For the Expedient offered; the Lords
look upon it as That which tends to the making of these
Mens Conditions better than now it is; an Expedient, to
put off the Discourse, and to make the Reasons their
Lordships had given, of less Weight hereafter than now.
To the other Part, wherein they do adhere, as to the
excepting for Life, Vane, Lambert, Hasilrigg, and Axtell,
his Lordship said, he did not believe that we of this
House looked on these Persons as innocent Men; or, as
Men so happy as not to have any Crime laid to their
Charge. He thinks, that had we that good Opinion of
them, we should not ourselves have excepted them for
future Pains and Penalties. He took notice to us, that
the King's Speech to the House of Lords, when they had
passed this Act of Indemnity, as far as they could, and
included all these Men, his Father's Murderers, in that
fatal Exception; gave them Thanks for their Justice on
the immediate Murderers of his Father; and that, in that
Speech, there was a subsequent Clause, which, if any
Persons be dangerous to the State, recommended it to
the Lords to have a Care of them also. Now, for one of
them, that is Axtell, the Ground of excepting him was
this; they had received Information from Ireland, (where
he is best known) which was first presented to the Council, and by them to their Lordships, that in the Year
1748, while the Murther was acting, and carrying on,
he pressed the Soldiers, with Violence, to cry and clamour
for Justice; and when the Violence had gone so far,
that the bloody Sentence was pronounced, he urged them
to cry out "Execution." "Execution." For Lambert;
his Lordship intimated, that we could not but take notice, how near he was to give a Turn to all the present Settlement we enjoy. For Hesilrigg, and Vane; his Lordship
observed, that they were Persons, whom the secluded Members, after their Restitution, and when they were preparing the Way for the great and good Work, which is now
effected, looked upon as fit to be secured and confined:
That, after the King was come in, these Gentlemen, notwithstanding the Censure on them by the secluded
Members, and the blessed End of the long Parliament,
returned to Town; never applying themselves to the
King, but lurked up and down, without giving any
Account of themselves: And his Lordship added, that
they look on them as Persons of a mischievous Activity: And therefore, their Lordships desire to leave them
to the Mercy of the King; with this further Intimation,
that they would be ready to join with this House in a
Petition to the King, that Mercy might be shewed them;
and that his Severity might not extend to their Lives;
And he did not doubt, but the Intercession of the Houses
would be effectual for That. For the last Four, who sat
in the High Courts of Justice; his Lordship observed,
that we, of the House of Commons, had departed very
much from our own Passion and Provocation, in urging
it as a Reason why we could not agree, because we
could not mingle the Expiation of the Blood of Peers
with the Expiation of the Blood of the King: But That,
he said, was not the Motive, but Justice itself upon so
high a Breach of the Law: And offered to Consideration, whether it would not amount to justify those Courts,
if some Severity were not used: But that was not much
pressed, nor long insisted on."
"When his Lordship had made an End, some worthy
Gentlemen, that attended the Conference, offered something of Reply; and I may do them some Wrong in repeating it: But they are here, and can do Right to themselves. It was observed, that this Proclamation was but
in the Nature of a Process: To which it was said; then
at least they should have been heard, before they were
excepted; which they were not."
"Secondly, In the summoning Part of the Proclamation, there is not one Word relating to a Trial; but the
Parliament were busy in proceeding upon the Act of
Oblivion; and issued the Proclamation, that they might
know in what Rank to place these Men: And, admitting
that this Proclamation, as to the holding forth of Benefit
to those that came in, amounts at highest to an Implication; yet, being an Implication, on which Men have put
their Lives, it was dishonourable (as a worthy Member enforced it) to retract the Benefit held forth by the
Proclamation. It was likewise observed, by the same
worthy Member, that to except them as to a Trial, signifies nothing; for they that do not come in are however excepted as to a Trial. To which his Lordship answered, It is true, that in the Consequence of it, and as
Things now stand, it is so: Those that come not in will
have the Benefit of a Trial, if they be taken, as well as
those that do come in: But, at the time of the Proclamation, it might have been expected to be otherwise;
and that those who did not render themselves, should
have been ipso facto attainted, and executed whensoever
"His Lordship instanced the Example of Scott, who
professed, for himself, that he rendered, on the Account of
the Proclamation, though his Render will not serve his
Turn: For that Render, which will save his Life, must
be a Render to the Speaker or Sheriff; to which he cannot pretend. But, his Lordship added, that if That be the
Meaning of the Proclamation; to extend Benefit of Life
to all that rendered themselves; the Equity is the same, as
to him: For, if a Man hear of the Proclamation, and
that he should have the Benefit of it, if he rendered himself to the Speaker or Sheriff; and hastens to do it;
but, being not able to do it within the Time, renders
himself to a publick Minister; it would be hard to make
him incapable of the Benefit intended by the Proclamation. Therefore his Lordship observed, those that rendered themselves must not necessarily have the Benefit of
their Lives.-It was then urged, that their Lordships had
excepted Persons that are dead; Constable, Maliverer,
Danvers, and others; and that the excepting of them
out of the Act of Oblivion signifies nothing: But the
Place where the Commons had put them, was, that their
Estates should be subject to future Penalties: A bare
Exception subjects not their Estates to future Penalties;
but, when the Act passes, the Heir and Executor is
discharged, though the Ancestor be excepted. To which
his Lordship replied, they knew the Exception of itself
operated nothing; but, they supposed and believed, the
Persons excepted by this Act would (as well as Bradshaw
and Cromwell) be attainted; for their Guilt was equal,
and they might deserve alike.-For the Four Persons;
it was observed, that to except Vane, and the rest, so as
to involve them in the Danger of Life and Estate, and
in the mean time to petition for their Pardon, was repugnant in itself. To which his Lordship made no Reply,
other than that still they were at the King's Mercy,
which way soever the Proceedings passed.
The House taking notice by the Expressions of the
Lord Chancellor, at a Conference with the Lords Yesterday, that when his Lordship was employed as a publick Minister from the King's Majesty that now is, to
the Court of Spaine, he did receive from his Majesty a
special Command, (as Part of his Instructions) upon his
Treaty with the King of Spaine, in that Negotiation, to
avow and declare, that the horrid Murder of his Royal
Father was not the Act of the Parliament or People of
England, but the Act of a very wretched, and very little,
Company of Miscreants in this Kingdom;
Ordered, That the Members of this House, who are
of his Majesty's Privy Council, as also Mr. Pierrepont,
Sir Edward Turner, and Sir Henage Finch, do present
to his Majesty the humble and thankful Sense this
House hath of his Majesty's Justice and Favour, in
making this just Defence for the Parliament and People
Resolved, That another free Conference be desired
with the Lords, upon the Matter of the last free Conference.
Ordered, That the Committee of this House, who managed the former Conference, do, upon the present Debate, consider of Heads for this free Conference; and
report them to this House To-morrow Morning.
Ordered, That Sir George Booth, Mr. Trevor, Mr.
Gott, be added to that Committee.
Ordered, That the Committee to whom the Bill for
Naturalization is referred be revived; and do meet this
Afternoon, at Three of the Clock, in the Speaker's
Chamber; and so de die in diem.