House of Commons Journal Volume 9
19 March 1678

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 9: 19 March 1678', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 9: 1667-1687 (1802), pp. 456-458. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=27601 Date accessed: 02 September 2014.


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Martis, 19 die Martii, 1677.

Prayers.

Privilege.

A COMPLAINT being made, That the Profits of the Office of Sir Edward Bish, a Member of this honourable House, are sequestered by one Sandford, during the Sitting and Privilege of Parliament;

Ordered, That it be referred to the Consideration of the Committee of Privileges and Elections, to examine the Matter of the said Complaint; and report the same, with their Opinions therein, to the House.

Samine's, &c. Estate.

An ingrossed Bill, sent from the Lords, intituled, An Act to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of John Samine, and of Sir Roger Cooper, and Cecill Cooper Esquire, deceased, with the Amendments thereto made, was read the Third time.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill, with the Amendments agreed to, do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of John Samine.

And Sir John Trevor is to carry up the Bill to the Lords.

Pawn-brokers.

A Bill for erecting a Register for Pawnbrokers was read the Second time.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill be committed, upon the Debates of the House, to Sir Phil. Warwick, Mr. Love, Sir Lan. Lake, Sir Tho. Stringer, Sir John Rolles, Sir Rob. Markham, Mr. Westphaling, Colonel Birch, Sir Ric. Graham, Mr. Papillon, Sir Cyrill Wych, Sir John Elwes, Sir Gilbert Gerrard, Sir John Trevor, Sir John Pettus, Mr. Progers, Mr. Spry, Mr. Walker, Sir Court. Poole, Mr. Swinfen, Sir Gilbert Talbot, Mr. Trelawney, Sir Ch. Harbord, Sir Hen. Ford, Sir John Knight, Sir Edm. Jenings, Mr. Greenvile, Mr. Newport, Sir Theo. Biddolph, Mr. Crouch, Sir Hen. Capell, Mr. Hopkins, Sir Anth. Irby, Sir Ric. Wiseman, Mr. Jones, Sir John Trelawney, Sir Fr. Rolles, Mr. Dalmahoy, Mr. Stawell, Mr. Prideaux, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Serjeant Seis, Sir John Hanmer, Sir Wm. Heywood, Sir Ric. Everard, Sir John Heath, Sir John Barnaby, Sir Tho. Allen, Sir John Talbot, Colonel Kirkby, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir John Birkenhead, Sir John Mallet, Mr. Hamden, and all the Members that serve for the County of Middlesex, Cities of London and Westminster, and Borough of Southwarke: And they are to meet Tomorrow, at Two of the Clock in the Afternoon, in the Inner Court of Wards.

Thorold's Estate.

An ingrossed Bill to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of Sir Wm. Thorold Knight, deceased, was read the Third time.

Resolved, &c. That the Bill do pass: And that the Title be, An Act to enable Trustees to sell Lands for Payment of the Debts of Sir Wm. Thorold, late of Hough in the County of Lincolne Knight, deceased.

And Sir John Trevor is to carry up the Bill to the Lords for their Concurrence.

Reasons to be offered at Conference.

Mr. Powle reports from the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons, to be offered at a Conference to be had with the Lords, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference, the Reasons agreed by the Committee: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were twice read; and, upon the Question, agreed; and are as followeth, viz.

That the Commons conceive, That, according to the ancient Course and Method of Transaction betwixt the Two Houses, when a Bill with Amendments is sent to either House from the other, by Messengers of their own, the House that sends them, gives no Reason of their Amendments: But the House to whom it is sent, if they find Cause to disagree, do use to give Reasons for their Dissent to every particular Amendment; every one of which is supposed to carry with it the Weight of its own Reason, until it be objected against.

That the House of Commons have commanded us to acquaint your Lordships, That the Amendments which have been made in this Bill, though very great, passed, upon mature Deliberation: And that they hope, your Lordships, upon further Consideration of them, will find Cause to concur with the Commons therein: But if your Lordships shall not remain satisfied, they desire they may understand from your Lordships, at a Conference, the particular Reasons which have induced your Lordships to disagree: And when the Commons have heard your Lordships Objections, they will be ready, either to concur with your Lordships, or to offer such further Reasons, as may give your Lordships Satisfaction.

Conference desired.

Ordered, That Sir John Trevor do desire a Conference with the Lords, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference.

Tax on new Buildings.

Ordered, That the Bill for laying a Charge upon new Foundations be read a Second time, on Thursday Morning next, at Ten of the Clock.

Exporting Wool, &c.

Mr. Powle reports from the Committee to whom the Bill to prevent the Exportation of Wool was committed, as also . . consider of the Encouragement of the Woolen Manufactures, and the Abuses of the Aulnage and of the Alum Patent; That the Committee had taken the Matter concerning the Alum Patent into Consideration; and had ordered him to make this Report:

That Sir Hugh Cholmely, Sir Nich. Crispe, and Mr. Tho. Crispe, appeared for the Farmers of the King's Alum Works: That they said, there is a Clause in their Patent, That none but the Patentees shall make any Alum here in England, or import any Alum, or Materials to make Alum; dated 27 Aprilis 1667.

That accordingly there hath a Proclamation issued, to prohibit any Persons to import any Alum, or Materials to make it, upon Pain of Forfeiture of the same.

That since their Patent, several Works have been set up; but they have compounded with the Undertakers; and that the King allows them the Composition for them out of his Rent.

That their Rent to the King is Ten thousand Pound a Year; but there is not at present above Two thousand Four hundred Pounds a Year paid into the Exchequer; the rest being paid to other Persons, in Compensation for their Works.

That there is a new Work now setting up upon Sir Edw. Challoner's Lands near Gisborough in Yorkshire, which if it be compounded for, will eat up most of the remaining Part of the King's Rent: But the Undertakers at present refuse to compound.

That they raise their Rent of Ten thousand Pounds a Year to the King chiefly upon their Home Sale; since their Foreign Rent yields them but little Profit.

That, before the King's Restoration, Alum was sold in England for about Ten or Twelve Pounds a Ton.

That they are obliged by their Patent, not to exceed the Price of Twenty-six Pounds a Ton, for what they sell at Home; and thereabouts they sell at this time.

That what they send abroad, they sell at this time at about Sixteen or Seventeen Pounds a Ton.

That there is a Proviso in the Statute of the One-andtwentieth of King James against Monopolies; which exempts the Alum Patent from the Penalties of that Act.

And that the Committee had agreed to this following Vote;

Resolved, &c. That the Alum Patent, and the Proclamation thereupon, as they are now executed, are very prejudicial and burthensome to the Woolen Manufactures of this Kingdom.

And as to the Legality of the Patent, they refer it to the Judgment and Consideration of this House.

Resolved, &c. That this House doth agree with the Committee, That the Alum Patent, and the Proclamation thereupon, as they are now executed, are very prejudicial and Burthensome to the Woolen Manufactures of this Kingdom.

Resolved, &c. That the Contents of the Alum Patent be re-committed to the former Committee; to consider of the Inconveniences arising by the Patent and Proclamation; and to inquire what present Advantage comes to the Crown thereby; and what Profit may arise by the Custom of exporting it; and report the same with their Opinions therein, to the House: And they are to hear the King's Counsel touching the same: And they are to meet this Afternoon in the Place formerly appointed.

Message from the King.

Mr. Secretary Coventry acquaints the House, That he had given his Majesty Notice, That there was a Bill of Aid passed both Houses, and ready for his Royal Assent: And that his Majesty was pleased to return an Answer thereto: Which, being in Writing, he delivered to Mr. Speaker: And the same was by him read to the House; and is as followeth; viz.

Charles R

HIS Majesty hath received the Notice sent him by this House, that the Poll Bill was now ready for the Royal Assent: Which his Majesty was well pleased to hear; and resolveth to pass it To-morrow. His Majesty desireth this House to dispatch the rest of the Supply promised Him, with all Expedition: The Sea and Land Preparations run great Danger of being disappointed, if those Supplies be retarded: And it would be a Satisfaction to His Majesty, that no more Time should be lost in a Work so necessary for the Safety and Reputation of the Nation, as the Finishing those Supplies.

Lords Amendments to Address- War with France.

A Message from the Lords, by Lord Chief Justice Rainsford, and the Lord Chief Justice North;

Mr. Speaker, The Lords have agreed to the Address, sent up from this House to be presented to his Majesty, with some Amendments: To which they desire the Concurrence of this House.

The Amendments to the said Address were once read.

The First Amendment being read a Second time, was, upon the Question, agreed to.-

Lords agree to Conference.

Sir John Trevor reports, That the Lords had agreed to a present Conference in the Painted Chamber, upon the Subject Matter of the last Conference: And the Members that managed the former Conference, did attend and manage the said Conference.-

Lords Amendments to Address.

The House then proceeded in the Consideration of the Amendments made by the Lords to the Address.

The Second Amendment being read a Second time;

The Question being put, To agree to the said Amendment;

The House divide.

The Yeas go forth.

Tellers, Sir Rob. Sawyer, for the Noes, 155.
Mr. Harbord,
Tellers, Sir John Hanmer, for the Yeas, 112.
Sir Edm. Jenings,

The rest of the Amendments being read a Second time;

And the Question being severally put, To agree thereto;

It passed in the Negative.

Ordered, That the Persons who were appointed to draw up the Address, do draw up Reasons for not agreeing to the said Amendments.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Eight of the Clock.