House of Commons Journal Volume 10
2 May 1689

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 10: 2 May 1689', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 10: 1688-1693 (1802), pp. 117-120. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=28816 Date accessed: 21 October 2014.


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Jovis, 2 die Maii.

Prayers.

Duties on Coffee, &c.

A PETITION of divers Coffee Sellers in London, on the Behalf of themselves, and others, was read; setting forth, That, by an Act of 15 Car. II. certain Duties are laid on Coffee, Chocolate, Sherbet, and Tea, to be paid by, and levied upon, the Retails of the said several Liquors; but that they are so high, that the Petitioners cannot subsist, and pay the same: And that many of the Traders therein have been ruined by the heavy Exactions of the Officers of the Excise: And praying to be relieved against the same.

Ordered, That the Petition do lie upon the Table, to be considered when the Revenue of Excise shall come under the Consideration of the House.

Astley's, &c. Nat.

A Bill for naturalizing Ann Astley, and others, was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

Measures.

A Bill for settling of Measures was read the First time.

Commissioners of Great Seal to execute Lord Chancellorship.

Ordered, That the Committee, to whom the ingrossed Bill, sent down from the Lords, intituled, An Act for enabling Lords Commissioners for the Great Seal to execute the Office of Lord Chancellor, or Lord Keeper, was referred, upon the Re-commitment thereof, be revived: And that Sir Ralph Dutton, Mr. Christy, Sir Tho. Dyke, Mr. Kendall, Mr. Arnold, Lord Digby, Mr. Hobby, Mr. Parker, Mr. Newporte, Sir Wm. Honeywood, be added to the Committee.

Leave of Absence.

Ordered, That Mr. Pawlett have Leave to go into the Country, for Three Weeks.

Simoniacal Promotions.

The House then took into Consideration the Amendments proposed by the Lords to be made to the Bill, That the Simoniacal Promotion of one Person may not prejudice another: Which were Thrice read; and agreed unto by the House; and are as follow; viz.

Insert Clause [A]. Which Clause was, "That Leases, made by Persons, although Simoniacally promoted, to Lessees not knowing of the Simony, should not be impeached."

Ordered, That Sir Jos. Tredenham do carry up the Bill to the Lords; and acquaint them with the Concurrence of this House to the said Amendments.

Recovery of Tythes.

A Bill for the more easy Recovery of small Tythes, was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

Supply Bill; Poll Tax.

A Bill for an additional Poll, was read the First time. Resolved, That the Bill be read a Second time.

New Windsor Election.

Colonel Birch reports from the Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom the Matter, touching the Election of Burgesses, to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of New Windsor in the County of Berks, was referred, the State of the Case, as it appeared to the Committee: Which he produced in Writing; and delivered in at the Clerk's Table; and was there read; and is as followeth:

Upon the Petition of Wm. Adderly, Esquire, against the Right honourable Henry Powle, Esquire, touching the Election for New Windsor, was read: As also,

A Petition of Sir Algernoon May, Knight, against Sir Christopher Wren, touching the Election for the same Borough, was read.

But, upon the Request of the said Sir Algernoon May, That the Committee would not proceed upon his said Petition, till the Right of Election was settled, the Committee did not then proceed to hear the Matter of the Petition of the said Sir Algernoon.

That the Question, between the said Mr. Powle and Mr. Adderley, appeared to be, Whether the Right of Election was in the Mayor, Bailiffs, and select Number of Burgesses; or, in the Inhabitants of the said Borough, paying Scot and Lot.

And it was agreed, That, if the Right of Election was in the former, then the said Mr. Powle was duly elected: If in the latter, That Mr. Adderly was.

That, for the Petitioner, the Counsel insisted, That New Windsor was a Borough by Prescription: And produced Returns of Burgesses, 30 E. I. 7 E. II. 15 E. II. 4 E. III. And Indentures of Return of 29 H. VI. Major & Communitas Burgensium eligerunt, sub Sigillo communi omnium & singulorum Burgensium & Communitatis.

39 H. VI. Major, Ballivi, & tota Communitas, elegerunt.-Dat. sub Sigillo Officii Majoratus.

7 Edw. IV. Major, Ballivi, & Comburgenses, elegerunt sub Sigillo communi.

Mariæ. Major, Burgenses, & Communitas, elegerunt sub Sigillo communi, in Guilda Aula.

2 & 3tio Philippi & Mariæ. Major cum Burgensibus, & Communitate elegerunt sub Sigillo communi Burgi predicti.

Eliz. Major, Ballivi, Burgenses, & Communitas, elegerunt sub Sigillo communi Burgi prædicti.

17 Car. I. Mayor, Bailiff, and Inhabitants, chose under common Seal, and Seal of the Inhabitants:

And produced a Charter of Incorporation, of 5 Edw. I. Quod Villa prædicta de cætero sit liber Burgus: And,

6 E. IV. Whereby the Mayor, Bailiffs, and Inhabitants were incorporated, by the Name of Mayor, Bailiff, and Burgesses: And,

Jacobi I. Constituting a Mayor, Bailiff, Aldermen, and Common Council, not exceeding the Number of Thirty; eligend. sicut ex antiquo, et Temporibus retroactis: And,

A Copy of the Journal of 40 whereby it appeared, there had been a Resolution of this House, That the Right of Election was in the Inhabitants in general: And,

Extracts of the Journals of 1679, and 1680; where were Resolutions to the same Effect.

That then they called Mr. Tayler, a Witness: Who said, That he remembered the Election of Hewett, 1°, or 3°Car, when all the Inhabitants came up to the Cross, and chose him; but said, He was then a Boy, and knows not who made the Return; but said, None were set by, but who received Alms.

Mr. Herring said, He was an Inhabitant: And that Mr. Powle declared, He would be chosen by the Popularity.

That an Exception . . . taken to him, he being an Inhabitant.

That for Mr. Powle the Counsel denied, that New Windsor was a Borough by Prescription; and insisted, That all the Records, produced by the Petitioner, were Evidence for Mr. Powle, they being under the common Seal; and several dated in the Guildhall, the Place for corporate Acts; and that the former Resolutions of this House, on Behalf of the Populacy, were upon a mistaken Ground: And insisted, that New Windsor was made a Borough by 5 Edw. I.

That in that Charter were direct Words of Creation of a Borough, and making them a Corporation; as also a Grant of sending Burgesses to Parliament, by relative Words, granting them all the Rights and Liberties of the Burgesses of other Boroughs.

That the Indenture of Return, of 27 H. VI. was Major et Communitas Burgensium elegerunt, sub Sigillo communi omnium et singulorum Burgensium, et Communitatis: Which could be only meant of the Corporation; as all the rest of the Returns, produced by the Petitioner, were: And produced Indentures of Returns, besides those produced by the Petitioner; . . . were

1 Car. I. 2 Car. I. 3 Car I. Election by Mayor, Bailiffs, and Burgesses, under the common Seal:

And the Journal of the House 6 July, 13 Car. II. wherein the Resolution of the House was, That the Right of Election was in the Corporation.

And that upon the whole Matter the Committee came to several Resolutions: Which he read in his Place; and after delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read, and are as followeth; viz.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the Right of Election of Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of New Windsor in the County of Berks, is in the Mayor, Bailiff, and select Number of Burgesses, only.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That Henry Powle, Esquire, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of New Windsor in the County of Berks.

The First of the said Resolves being read a Second time:

Resolved, Nemine contradicente, That this House doth agree with the Committee, That the Right of Election of Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of New Windsor in the County of Berks, is in the Mayor, Bailiff, and select Number of Burgesses, only.

The Second of the said Resolves being read a Second time:

Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee, That Henry Powle, Esquire, is duly elected a Burgess to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of New Windsor in the County of Berks.

Southwark Election.

Colonel Birch reports from the Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom the Matter touching the Election of Burgesses to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Southwarke was referred, the State of the Case, as it appeared to the Committee: Which he produced in Writing; and delivered in at the Clerk's Table; and was there read; and is as followeth; viz.

Upon the Petition of the Inhabitants of Southwarke, touching the Election of Burgesses for the Borough of Southwarke in the County of Surrey;

The Question was, Whether any that did not pay Scot and Lot, had a Right to vote.

For the Petitioners, the Counsel insisted, That none had a Right to elect, but the Inhabitants paying Scot and Lot: Of which Number they alledged Mr. Smith and Mr. Bowyer had the Plurality.

That, according to the Poll taken by the Bailiff;

Sir Peter Rich had 1677
Mr. Arnold 2130
Mr. Smith, And 1526
Mr. Bowyer 1360
But suggested, that, of those who paid Scot and Lot,
Mr. Smith had 664
Mr. Arnold 626
Mr. Bowyer And 538
Sir Peter Rich had 464

And it was put upon the Sitting Members to prove, that Housekeepers, not paying Scot and Lot, had a Right to elect: Who called

Mr. James Reading: Who said, He lived in the next Parish to the Borough, but hath no Vote: That he never heard it disputed, but by Losing Members, but that all Persons, being Inhabitants, who did not receive Alms, had a Right to vote: That he remembers one ancient Election of Mr. Brewer and Colonel Thompson; and all were admitted then: That he has often wished the Custom had been for Scot and Lot Men; but the other has been the Custom. Said, he was at the Election, being desired by the Bailiff, as a Person no way concerned.

Sir Peter Daniell said, He remembered a great many Elections for Southwarke; but, the last Election before this, had the Honour to be a Member of this House. He said then they disputed about the Scot and Lot Men, and could hardly agree what it was; but, at last, they agreed, that all Housekeepers should have Votes: That he remembers the Election when Sir Thomas Bludworth was chosen; and it was by the Majority of Housekeepers: Would be very glad it might be settled, that none but who pay for the Poor might elect; but, as it has been managed for Forty Years, it is in the Inhabitants in General: That all that live in the Mint, and have Houses, (to the best of his Knowledge) have been admitted to vote; and that, at his Election, there was a Dispute of some Prisoners that had been let out, but he could find none.

Mr. Smith said, he was born in Southwarke, and that any Person that lives in the Mint, in an House of Forty Shillings a Year, had as much Right to poll as he had: He see no Prisoners Poll, but those who had Houses who had a Right: That he remembers for about Threescore Years, and hath seen many Elections; and this was as fair a Poll as any he ever see in his Life: The Mint pays Scot and Lot to St. George's Church.

Mr. Edward Lane, born in Southwarke, next October Fifty-five Years of Age, had been at several Elections; but never knew any Objection against any Inhabitant of Southwarke, if he paid Forty Shillings a Year for his House, and did not receive Alms: That the Mint was always reckoned Part of the Borough, and pay all Taxes: That he was at the Election, and heard no Complaint, till it appeared, that Mr. Smith and Mr. Bowyer had lost it.

Mr. Fins said, He lived in the Mint, and has lived there Threescore-and-four Years; and has given his Vote for Fifty Years: He remembers the Election of Mr. Holbourne and Mr. Tuckney, and afterwards of Mr. Hiland; and it was said, that any that paid any Collection to the Parish, it was lawful for him to poll; but, if they received Alms, they were not allowed to vote.

Sir Robert Mayos said, he was at the Election, and voted; and has voted for several; and never knew but the Candidates polled every one that was a Housekeeper, though he had but Two Rooms, if he went in at one Door: He heard no body dispute it, because it was always a Custom to poll, whether they paid Scot and Lot or no, and the Petitioners have done the same. He thinks it was a very fair Poll.

Then the Agreement of the Candidates was read; by which it was agreed, That all Housekeepers, not receiving Alms, were good Pollers.

For the Petitioners, the Counsel delivered in a Paper, in the Nature of a Protestation against the said Agreement, signed by the Inhabitants of the Borough:

And called Joseph Shebbeer: Who said, He see several sign it: That, when they saw all Persons admitted, they drew up that Paper; and it was tendered the Bailiff; but he threw it back again, and would not receive it.

Wm. Thomas, who lives in St. Mary Overy's Park, came Apprentice in the Borough 1633, and has continued in the Borough for the most Part of the Time since: He remembers several Elections; and, to the best of his Remembrance, the ancient Elections was by the Inhabitants paying to the Poor, though it was but a Half-peny a Week; and so it continued, till the Election of Mr. Thompson.

* Martingly: The first Election he remembers was Mr. Holbourn's, and then they were not suffered to poll unless they paid to the Poor, though it was never so little: The next being Mr. Brewer and Mr. Thomson's, he could not tell how that was carried on.

Robert Steele: That, the first Parliament, before the Long Parliament, Mr. White and Mr. Bagshawe were chosen in St. George's Fields; and, when they came to poll, they desired all that did not pay Scot and Lot to stand off: The next being Mr. Holbourne's, they did the like; but there was no Poll: That at Mr. Thomson's Election there was a Poll; and he was polled, the Poll held Five Days; and he was questioned where he lived, and whether he was a Housekeeper, and paid to the Poor: That he was polled the first day; but afterwards, those, that did not pay Scot and Lot, came in, he thinks.

Ri. Boswell lives in Tuly-street; was at the Election, and voted: That there was a Complaint at the Oxon Parliament, as now; but, the Parliament being dissolved, there was no Hearing.

That, upon the whole Matter, the Committee came to several Resolutions: Which he read in his Place; and afterwards, delivered the same in at the Clerk's Table: Where the same were read; and are as followeth;

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That the Right of Election of Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Southwarke in the County of Surrey is in all the Inhabitants of the said Borough, being Housekeepers, and not receiving Alms.

Resolved, That it is the Opinion of this Committee, That Sir Peter Rich, Knight, and John Arnold, Esquire, are duly elected Burgesses to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Southwarke aforesaid.

The First of the said Resolves being read a Second time;

Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee, That the Right of Election of Burgesses to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Southwarke in the County Surrey is in all the Inhabitants of the said Borough, being Housekeepers, and not receiving Alms.

The Second of the said Resolves being read a Second time;

Resolved, That this House doth agree with the Committee, That Sir Peter Rich, Knight, and John Arnold, Esquire, are duly elected Burgesses to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Southwarke aforesaid.

Removing Papists.

A Bill for rectifying a Mistake in the Bill for amoving Papists from the Cities of London and Westminster, was read the First time.

Resolved, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The Bill was read a Second time.

Ordered, That the Bill be ingrossed.

A Bill for restoring Corporations was read the Second time.

Resolved, That the Bill be committed to Mr. Sacheverell, Lord Digby, Mr. Papillion, Sir Rob. Nappier, Mr. Paul Foley, Sir John Guise, Mr. Christy, Sir Rich. Hart, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Bickerstaffe, Mr. Garway, Sir Tho. Pope Blunt, Mr. Thompson, Sir John Banks, Mr. Honeywood, Sir John Cutler, Mr Wogan, Mr. Rebow, Major Wildman, Mr. Reignolds, Colonel Birch, Sir Hen. Goffe, Mr. Somers, Sir Tho. Dyke, Sir H. Ashurst, Mr. Austen, Mr. Chetwin, Sir Tho. Littleton, Mr. Colt, Sir John Fowell, Sir Cha. Raleigh, Sir John Barker, Sir John Knight, Mr. Hamden, Mr. Thomson, Sir Trevor Williams, Mr. Tho. Foley, Lord Falkland, Mr. Gwyn, Mr. Hervey, Sir Walter Young, Sir Ralph Dutton, Mr. Arnold, Mr. England, Mr. Trenchard, Mr. Burrard: And all that come are to have Voices: And they are to meet in the Speaker's Chamber on Saturday next, at Four of the Clock in the Afternoon.

Restoring Corporations.

A Petition of the Mayor and Commonalty of the City of Canterbury, shewing, That they had enjoyed divers ancient Privileges, by Virtue of a Statute of 7 Ed. VI. and 15 Car. II. appointing Four Wine Sellers; but that of late that Privilege was invaded, by an Information brought against one Powell; and praying the Consideration of the House, and Relief therein; was read.

Resolved, That it be referred to the same Committee, to examine the Matter of the said Petition; and to report the same, with their Opinions therein, to the House.

Leave for Member to attend Lords.

Ordered, That Sir Wm. Williams have Leave to attend at the Bar of the House of Lords, as Counsel in a Cause between the Earl of Macclesfeild and Fitton.

Bailing and Escape of Brent.

The House then took into Consideration the Report, made upon Monday last, touching Sir James Smith: And the same being read; and a Debate arising thereupon;

Resolved, That Mr. Attorney General, and Mr. Solicitor General, be desired, by this House, to prefer an Indictment against Sir James Smith for Bailing Mr. Brent.

Disarming Papists.

The House then took into Consideration the Amendments proposed by the Lords, to be made to the Bill for the more speedy and effectual Convicting and Disarming of Papists: Which were Twice read throughout; and are as followeth:

In the Title, instead of "more speedy and effectual Convicting and," read, "better securing the Government by;" and, after "Papists," add, "reputed Papists."

1 Pr. 1 L. instead of "more speedy Conviction of," read "better securing of the Government against;" and after "Papists," add, "and reputed Papists."

40 L. after "declared," leave out to "to," in the 42 L.

44 L. after, "Disabilities," leave out to "and," in the 48th L.; and read, "hereafter in this Act mentioned."

2 Pr. 17 L. for "Popish Recusant convict," read "Papists, or reputed Papists, so refusing, or making Default, as aforesaid."

38 L. for "Popish Recusant convict," read "Papist, or reputed Papist."

50 L. for "Conviction," read, "such Refusal, or making Default, as aforesaid."

3 Pr. 29 L. instead of "Popish Recusant convict," read, "Persons so refusing, or making Default, as aforesaid."

4 Pr. 9 L. leave out from "shall" to "shall" in the 11th L.; and read, "have refused, or made Default, as aforesaid."

15 L. from "Conviction," read, "his refusal or making Default, as aforesaid."

29 L. instead of "being a Popish Recusant convict," read, "Refusal or Default, as aforesaid."

5 Pr. 1 L. for "Popish Recusant convict," read, "Papist or reputed Papist, so refusing or making Default, as aforesaid."

2 L. for "First," read, "Fifteenth."

6 L. after "sold," add, "except such as shall be allowed by the Justices of the Peace at the General or Quarter Sessions."

19 L. for "Popish Recusant," read, "Papist, or reputed Papist, so refusing . . . . . . . Default, as aforesaid;" and, for "First," read "Fifteenth."

23 L. after "to," read "be."

The Two First of the said Amendments, being severally read the Third time, upon the Question severally put thereupon, were postponed.

The Twelve next Amendments, being severally read the Third time, were upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

The Fifteenth Amendment being read the Third time.

And the Question being put, That the House do agree with the Lords in the said Amendment;

It was resolved in the Negative.

The Two last of the said Amendments, being severally read the Third time, were, upon the Question severally put thereupon, agreed unto by the House.

Resolved, That a Committee be appointed to prepare Reasons for a Conference with the Lords, why this House doth not agree with the Lords in the said Fifteenth Amendment, by the Lords proposed to be made to the Bill, sent up to them by this House, intituled, An Act for the more speedy Conviction and Disarming of Papists.

And it is referred unto Mr. Hamden, sen. Mr. Foley, Mr. Brewer, Mr. Sacheverell, Sir Jos. Tredenham, Mr. Hamden, jun. Colonel Birch, Mr. Leveson Gower, Mr. Colt; or any Three of them: And they are to meet this Afternoon, at Four of the Clock, in the Speaker's Cham ber; and to make their Report to the House, with all convenient Speed.

And then the House adjourned till To-morrow Morning, Nine of the Clock.