House of Lords Journal Volume 3
10 May 1624

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 10 May 1624', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 3: 1620-1628 (1767-1830), pp. 363-370. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=30416 Date accessed: 01 August 2014.


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DIE Lunæ, videlicet, 10 die Maii,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

p. Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburg.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
p. Epus. Norwicen.
p. Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Glocestren.
Epus. Carlien.
p. Epus. Co. et Lich.
p. Epus. Bath. et W.
p. Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Elien.
Epus. Cicestren.
p. Epus. Oxon.
p. Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Landaven.
p. Epus. Sarum.
p. Epus. Exon.
p. Epus. Meneven.
p. Epus. Bristol.
p. Epus. Asaphen.
p. Epus. Lincoln, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
Comes Midd. Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
p. Vicecomes Maundevill, Præs. Concilii Domini Regis.
p. Comes Wigorn, Ds. Custos Privati Sigilli.
Dux Buck. Magnus Admirallus Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
p. Comes Oxon. Magnus Camerar. Angliæ.
p. Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Maresc. Angliæ.
p. Comes Pembroc, Senescallus Hospitii.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Salop.
p. Comes Kancii.
Comes (fn. *) Derbiæ.
p. Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
p. Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Essex.
p. Comes Lincoln.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorsett.
p. Comes Sarum.
p. Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
p. Comes Bridgwater.
p. Comes Leicestriæ.
p. Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
Comes Devon.
Comes Cantabr.
Comes Holdernesse.
Comes Carlile.
p. Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
p. Comes Angles.
Vicecomes Mountague.
p. Vicecomes Wallingford.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
p. Vicecomes Maunsfeild.
Vicecomes Colchester.
p. Vicecomes Rochford.
p. Vicecomes Andever.
p. Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Zouch.
p. Ds. Willughby de E.
p. Ds. Delawarr.
p. Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et M.
Ds. Dacres de H.
p. Ds. Stafford.
p. Ds. Scroope.
p. Ds. Duddeley.
p. Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Herbert de Sh.
Ds. Darcy et Men.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
p. Ds. Wentworth.
Ds. Mordant.
p. Ds. St. John de Bas.
p. Ds. Cromwell.
Ds. Evre.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
p. Ds. St. John de Bl.
p. Ds. Howard de W.
Ds. Wootton.
p. Ds. Russell.
p. Ds. Grey de Grooby.
p. Ds. Petre.
p. Ds. Danvers.
p. Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Say et Seale.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope de H.
p. Ds. Carew.
Ds. Arundell de W.
p. Ds. Haughton.
Ds. Teynham.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
p. Ds. Noel.
Ds. Brooke.
p. Ds. Mountague.
p. Ds. Cary de Lep.
Ds. Kensington.
p. Ds. Grey de Werke.

Confirmation of Hospitals.

THE Lord Archbishop of Cant. reported the Bill for Confirmation and Continuance of Hospitals and FreeSchools, fit to pass, without any Amendments. Ordered to be ingrossed.

Lord Treasurer at the Bar.

The Lord Keeper did put the House in Mind of the Business concerning the Lord Treasurer, which was appointed to be proceeded in this Morning.

Charge touching Sugars opened against him.

The Lord Treasurer being thereupon brought to the Bar by the Gentleman Usher, Mr. Serjeant Crewe did open the Charge against him, concerning the Lease of Sugars, in this Manner: videlicet,

"Quarto Decembris, Anno 18° Jacobi, the King leaseth to George Heriott the Impost on Sugars, to hold from Christmas following, for Three Years, at the Rent of Five Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence per Annum, payable at Midsummer and Christmas.

"Duodecimo Januarii, Anno 19°; Jacobi, the Lord Treasurer procures George Heriott to surrender that Lease; and the next Day takes a Lease thereof from the King unto Nicholas Herman and Thomas Catchmay (Two of his Lordship's Servants), unto his own Use, at Two Thousand Pounds Rent per Annum, and lets the same unto the Farmers at Six Thousand Pounds per Annum; and, to effect this Surrender, gives Order (in a Time of Scarcity of Money) for the Payment of Fourteen Thousand Eight Hundred Sixty-five Pounds, due unto the said Heriott for Jewels, which was presently paid, between the 15th of December 1621 and the 10th of January following; which was paid in this Manner, videlicet, Seven Thousand Pounds odd Money out of the Arrear of the said George Heriott's Rent, and Seven Thousand Pounds odd Money out of the Tobacco Farm, by Way of Anticipation.

"The Crime objected against the Lord Treasurer herein is this. Had Heriott's Lease continued, Heriott's Debt had been paid out of his Rent. And the Lord Treasurer hath not only caused that Lease to be surrendered, and procured a new Lease thereof unto his Servants (to his own Use), at a far less Rent, but hath laid Seven Thousand Pounds of that Debt upon the Farm of Tobacco; and this he hath done in a Time of Scarcity of Money; even then when he caused the Imposition to be laid on the Wines, for a Supply for the Palatinate. And further, he hath paid this smaller Rent of Two Thousand Pounds per Annum very slowly unto the King; an Arrear of Three Thousand Pounds thereof being paid since the One and Thirtieth of December last, after the Summons of this Parliament.

"And whereas, for the Advancement of Trade, the Merchants, upon the Exportation of their Merchandizes, are re-paid the Customs which they formerly paid for the Importation, this is denied upon the Exportation of Sugars, to the Damage of the Merchants, and for the Lord Treasurer's private Gain."

Proofs in Support of it.

Then the Clerk read the Proofs: videlicet,

"The Certificate of Sir Robert Pye and Sir Edward Wardour. Mr. Heriott's Debt due to him for Jewels, and in what Manner he was paid the same between December 1621 and January following: videlicet,

£. s. d.
"15 Dec. 1621. "There was allowed, by Order from the Lord Treasurer, the 15th of Dec. 1621, unto Mr. Herriott, for Jewels sold to the late Queen Anne, in Part of Payment of 3584£. 16s. 10d. the Sum of 792 13 6
"17 Dec. 1621. "More allowed unto him, by like Order from the Lord Treasurer, the 17th of the said December, in full Payment of the said Sum of 3584£. 16s. 10d. 2792 3 4
"Summa Totalis, 3584 16 10
"10 Januarii, 1621. "More allowed unto Mr. Herriott, by several Orders from the Lord Treasurer, for Jewels, etc. by him at sundry Times delivered, and now paid for, between the said 15th of December 1621, and the 10th of January following, over and besides the Sums abovementioned, 11280 3 2
"Sum Total of all the Moneys allowed by the Lord Treasurer unto Mr. Heriott, is 14865 0 0

"Now the Manner how these Moneys were allowed and paid unto Mr. Herriott was as followeth:

"15 Dec. 1621. "There was a Tally stricken at the Receipt of the Exchequer, upon the Farm of the Impost of Sugars, the 15th of December 1621, being the Remain in Mr. Herriott's Hands, upon his Accompt for 2133 10 6
"There was likewise another Tally stricken upon the Sugars, for a whole Year's Rent, due at Christmas 1621, then next following, by Mr. Herriott, for 5666 13 4
"10 Jan. 1621. "And there were likewise Two other Tallies more, stricken the 10th of January 1621, upon William Burton and Peter Sanderson, upon the Tobacco Farm, newly let to them by Letters Patents, dated 21st of Dec. 1621, by Way of Anticipation, for the Sum of 7289 16 2

"Ro. Pye.

"Ed. Wardour.

"And so this being cleared, the new Grant of the Sugars began the 13th of January 1621, as followeth:

"The new Grant of Sugars, and the Payments made thereupon: videlicet,

£. s. d.
"23 Januar. 1621. "The Lease of Sugars was granted unto Nicholas Harman and Thomas Catchmay, by Indenture dated the 13th of January 1621, Anno 19°; Jacobi Regis; but they paid not their first Half Year's Rent until the 24th of January 1622; which was then paid for the Half Year ended at Midsummer 1622, 1000 0 0
"Paid by them, for the Half Year's Rent due at Christmas 1622, 1000 0 0
"More paid by them, the same Day for the Half Year's Rent due at Midsummer 1623, 1000 0 0
"Also paid by them, for the Half Year's Rent due at Christmas last, 1623, 1000 0 0

"Ex. per Ro. Pye.

"Ex. per Ed. Wardour."

G. Cant.
H. Maundevill.
H. South'ton.
Tho. Coven. et Lich.
Arth. Bath. et W.
H. Danvers.

"The Examination of Sir John Wolstenholme, Knight, Abraham Jacob, and Henry Garway, taken the 27th of April 1624.

Wolstenham, Jacob, and Garraway's Examinations.

"The said Examinates say, That they, and Mr. Morrice Abbott, and Mr. Dawes, are Farmers to the Lord Treasurer, of the Farm of Sugars, at the Rent of Six Thousand Pounds per Annum; and say, there is not any Allowance made to the Merchant upon the Exportation of Sugars, of the Impost which the Merchant pays upon the Importation of the same, according as is in Case of other Merchandize; and they say, that, paying so great a Rent, they may not allow the said Impost to the Merchant, unless they have their Rent abated, or that His Majesty will bear the Burthen and Charge of that Allowance; and say, that they have moved the Lord Treasurer, that Allowance thereof may be made to the Merchant, for the Advancement of Trade; and his Lordship took the same into Consideration, but hath not given any Direction therein; and further say, that such as farmed the Sugars before these Examinates did not give that Allowance; and therefore these Examinates, following the same Courses, did not yield any Allowance in that Behalf, more than had been before their Time.

"Jo. Worstenholme.

"Abraham Jacob.

"Henry Garwaie."

G. Cant.
H. Maundevill.
Tho. Co. et Lich.
Arth. Bath et W.
Tho. Wentworth.
Theo. Howard.
H. Danvers.
Ro. Spencer.

Strowd, Kendal, and Dawes's Examination.

The Examinations of George Strowd, George Kendall, and Abraham Dawes, prove the same touching the Impost not paid.

The Lord Treasurer's Answer:

Lord Treasurer's Answer.

"His Lordship confessed the Lease to Herriott, at the Rent of Five Thousand Six Hundred Sixty-six Pounds, Thirteen Shillings, and Four Pence; and the Lease to his own Use (upon the Surrender) at Two Thousand Pounds Rent; and that he hath let the same at Six Thousand Pounds per Annum; and affirmed, that His Majesty was first acquainted with it, and well allowed thereof."

Hereupon the Lord Keeper signified to the House, That the King had commanded him to tell their Lordships, "That His Majesty understood that the Lord Treasurer should gain by this Lease Four Thousand Pounds per Annum;" so there was no further Proceeding in that Point of the Charge.

The Lord Treasurer also confessed, "That he had paid Herriott Fourteen Thousand Pounds odd Money; but affirmed, that it was a just Debt; and that Herriott had Power to pay himself (by a Privy Seal) out of his Rent."

"His Lordship denied, "That he paid Seven Thousand Pounds of that Debt out of the Tobacco Farm, by Way of Anticipation; and said, that he only transferred it from the Sugars to Tobacco; and justified the same, for that the King's Meaning was, that he should have Four Thousand Pounds per Annum out of the Impost for Sugars, presently upon his Surrender of the Wardrobe; and that the King lost not by it; for he (the Lord Treasurer) had, for the Disbursements of the Wardrobe, Twenty Thousand Pounds per Annum, which he hath now settled at Sixteen Thousand Pounds per Annum; and yet the King's State therein maintained, and a noble Gentleman rewarded.

"Touching the slow Payment of his Rent, he denied it not; but said, he had disbursed as much or more before-hand for the King, in other Matters.

"As touching the Impost not returned upon the Exportation of Sugars, his Lordship denied that it was ever demanded of him; and affirmed that, if it be due, then the Farmers are tied by his Lease to them to repay it; but, if they be not so tied, that then he will repay it all, both for the Time past and to come."

And thus ended the Charge for the Sugars.

Then Mr. Serjeant Crewe did open the Charge against the Lord Treasurer, touching his Lordship's Warrants to levy Compositions for Purveyance of Grocery in the Out-Ports, after this Manner: videlicet,

Lord Treasurer's Charge touching Grocery.

"That the City of London did compound with the King for Grocery. The Out-Ports refused (especially Bristoll), and yielded unto Purveyance in Kind; and that Bristoll had an Order for this in the Exchequer, in the Time of Robert Earl of Salisbury, late Lord Treasurer; yet, notwithstanding, the Lord Treasurer directed his Warrants to levy this Composition; and notwithstanding it was not due to the King, nor any such Composition entered in the Compting-House, his Lordship commanded their Goods (then in the Ports) to be stayed, and not entered, till it were paid, or Bonds given for it; and thereby constrained some Ports to pay it; and the Merchants of Bristoll (who denied it) to attend his Lordship Ten Weeks together, to be discharged; and yet Bonds were exacted from the Merchants of Bristoll for the Payment thereof, after the Lord Treasurer was acquainted with the said Order in the Exchequer, even till the Summons of Parliament; for which Mr. Serjeant charged the Lord Treasurer with Oppression and Extortion, contrary to his Lordship's Oath, to do Right to the Poor and Rich in such Things as concern his Office."

Proofs of it.

The Clerk read the Proofs: videlicet,

"The Examination of John Guy and John Barker, taken 21st April 1624.

Guy and Barker's Examination.

"The said Examinates say, That, in the Time of the Lord Treasurer Salisbury, a Reference was made by his Lordship to the Lord Chief Baron and Baron Snigg, touching a Composition then demanded of the Merchants of Bristoll, for Purveyance of Wines and Grocery; and, upon deliberate Hearing, the Officers of the Houshold being present, it was then Resolved, That they should not be pressed to those Compositions, but should submit to Purveyance, when His Majesty or the Queen came within Twenty Miles of that City; and accordingly, at Queen Ann's being at Bathe, they did submit to Purveyance, to their Charge of Eight Hundred Pounds; yet, in November was Twelve-month, upon a Warrant from the Lord Treasurer, they were pressed to pay Composition for Grocery, after the Rate as was paid in London; and were forced to enter Bonds for Payment, or discharging by a Day; whereupon this Examinate John Guye attended the Lord Treasurer, to be freed, and shewed him the Proceedings aforementioned; but could get no other Relief but a Letter, of which he now delivered a Copy to the Lords Committees; which Copy this Examinate received from his Lordship's Secretary; ever since which Time the Officers have pressed the Merchants to enter Bonds till about the Beginning of the Parliament, and, since that Time, the Officers have accepted the Merchants Words; and saith, that the Copy of the Lord Treasurer's Warrant, or Letter, dated 20th November 1622, is a true Copy of the Letter which came to the Port of Bristoll, and is now in the Hands of the Lords Committees; and say, that they attended Ten Weeks at one Time, and have had Agents for the City of Bristoll Three Times, and have spent above a Hundred Pounds in Charges, to be eased of this Burthen; and further say, They never paid any Composition for Wines or Grocery until this Lord Treasurer's Warrant.

John Guy.

John Barker.

H. Maundevill.
H. South'ton.
Theop. Howard.
Tho. Wentworth.
Fra. Russell.
Rob. Spencer.
William Say et Seale.

"The Information of John Chappell, taken upon Oath, 22d April, 1624.

Chappell's Information upon Oath.

"That, in the Custom-House of the Port of Exeter, there hath been collected, for the Composition Money of Grocery, of and from every Merchant which hath made any Entry in the said Custom-House, since the Four and Twentieth Day of November 1622, by Warrant under the Hand and Seal of the Right Honourable the Lord High Treasurer of England, of these Goods following, these several Rates:

"Pepper,
Cloves,
Maces,
Nutmegs,
Cinamon,
the Cwt. xvii d.
Ginger, the Cwt. xii d.
Raisins of the Sun, Cwt. iii d.
Raisins Malaga, the Piece, 1 d. ob.
"Pruens, the Tun, 16 d.
"Almonds, the Cwt. vi d.
"Sugar in Loaves, the Cwt. vi d.
"Currants, the Tun, ii s.
"Oil, the Pipe, iii s.
"Coarse Sugar and Cwt. iii d.
"Figgs, the Barrel, 1 d.
"Figgs, the Piece, iii q.
"Figgs, the Tapnet, ob.
"Sugars Powder, Whites and Muscavadoes, Opt. xx d.
"Dates, the Cwt. viii d.
"Rice, the Cwt. iiii d. ob.
"Olives, the Tun, iiii s.
"Castell, Venes, and all other Kind of Cake Soap, the Cwt. vi d.
"Anniseeds, the Cwt. ii d.
"Sugar Refined, the Cwt. viii d.
"Liquorice, the Cwt. ii d.

"The Merchants Entries in the Custom-House for any of these Goods could not be allowed before they had compounded, with the Assigns of Mr. Abraham Jacob, to pay the said Composition-money specified in these several Rates.

"Jo. Chappell."

H. Maundevill. H. South'ton. Rob. Spencer.

"The Lord Treasurer's general Warrant to Abraham Jacob, to levy the said Composition, and not to suffer any Goods to be landed, etc. in London and the OutPorts, until the said Composition be first duly satisfied and paid, as hath been accustomed.

"The Copy of the Lord Treasurer's Letter to the Customers of Bristall, reciting a Composition for Grocery; and that heretofore divers Letters and Warrants have been sent to Bristall, and all other Ports, for the Collection thereof, by the late Lord Treasurer Dorsett; and commands that no Goods be permitted to be landed, etc. until the said Composition be paid, and to be aiding for the due Collection thereof, according to the said Letter, dated 20th November 1622.

"The Copy of the Lord Treasurer's Letter unto the Customers of Bristall, dated 24th February 1622, wherein his Lordship takes Notice of an Agreement made between the late Lord Treasurer Salisbury and them of Bristoll, concerning the Composition for Spices; and requires the Officers to accept of the Merchants Bonds, with Sureties for the Payment thereof, until he had fully considered of the said Agreement.

"And the Relation of Thomas Giar upon Oath, That this Composition is demanded and paid in Waymouth, and their Goods not suffered to be landed until it be paid.

"And the Lord Treasurer's Warrant to Poole, for the Collection of the said Composition, dated the 24th of April 1622."

"The Lord Treasurer's Answer:

Lord Treasurer's Answer.

"That herein he did but his Duty; and that, if he had neglected it, he had not done his Duty: That he required nothing to be done by his Warrants, but what was accustomed in Queen Elizabeth's Time, and in all the King's Time: That his Warrants were according to the usual Form, and general to all the Ports, not knowing that Bristol was exempted by the Order in the Lord Treasurer Salisbury's Time until afterwards; that when he knew of it, he yielded to their Request, and Guy went away well satisfied with his Answer; and that none had Benefit by this Composition but the King only."

The Clerk read the Examinations taken on his Lordship's Behalf: videlicet,

"The Examination of Sir Simon Harvey.

Harvey's Examination.

"That Composition for Grocery was usually collected in all the Out-Ports (save Exeter and Bristowe), in the Lord of Dorsett's Time; and that himself received the same for Four or Five Years; and that they were but for Petty Things for the most Part, brought in by way of Reprizal, in the Time of Queen Elizabeth: That Mr. Jacob was appointed to levy the same for the King: That the Citizens of Bristowe did acquaint the Lord Treasurer with the Order to exempt them the Composition; and the Lord Treasurer sent this Examinate to treat with them to yield to Composition, which they denied; whereupon the Lord Treasurer answered, Let them stand to the Earl of Salisbury's Order; other Discharge he gave them none: And this Examinate thought they went away well satisfied; for they heard what the Lord Treasurer said."

"The Examination of John Clerke.

Clerk's D°;.

"That Mr. Jacob was appointed to levy the same Composition, by Warrant from the Lord Treasurer; the Ground whereof was, for because the receiving thereof was taken away from Thomas Barrett, the King's Grocer, who had given Twelve Hundred Pounds for it; and that those Duties had been duly levied in some of the Out-Ports; but Exeter and Bristowe stood out. He hath not known any of those Duties taken since the Queen was at The Bath; and that there is a Table in the Custom-House of London, to shew this Composition for London."

Serj. Crewe's Reply.

Mr. Serjeant Crewe replied, "That there is no Table in the Custom-House, to shew any Composition for the Out-Ports;" and caused the Clerk to read the Examination of John Guye, on the Part of the Lord Treasurer, taken 1 Maii 1624, which agrees in Effect with his former Examination taken for the King; and that, after he and others of Bristowe had long petitioned the Lord Treasurer to have their Bonds canceled and delivered, which they had entered for the Payment of the said Composition, they could not obtain any Thing, save some good Hopes and fair Words from Sir Simon Harvey; and that their Bonds are yet detained."

Lord Treasurer's Defence.

The Lord Treasurer affirmed to the Lords, "That himself knew this Composition to be paid by the OutPorts; and that his Warrant was only to levy the same, as formerly it had been paid; and promised to send Barett's Books, and some Notes out of the Counting House, to prove the Payments thereof heretofore by the Out-Ports."

Then the Lord Treasurer was withdrawn.

Ordered, To be here again at the Bar, at Two this Afternoon.

And Agreed, To have a Stool whilst the Charge is in giving.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque (fn. *) in horam 2m hujus diei, in pomeridiano, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

p. Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburg.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
p. Epus. Norwicen.
p. Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Glocestren.
Epus. Carlien.
p. Epus. Co. et Lich.
p. Epus. Bath. et W.
p. Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Elien.
Epus. Cicestren.
p. Epus. Oxon.
p. Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Landaven.
p. Epus. Sarum.
p. Epus. Exon.
p. Epus. Meneven.
p. Epus. Bristol.
p. Epus. Asaphen.
p. Epus. Lincoln, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
Comes Midd. Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
p. Vicecomes Maundevill, Præs. Concilii Domini Regis.
p. Comes Wigorn. Ds. Custos PrivatiSigilli.
Dux Buck. Magnus Admirallus Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
p. Comes Oxon. Magnus Camerar. Angliæ.
p. Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Mares. Angliæ.
p. Comes Pembroc, Senescallus Hospitii.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Salop.
p. Comes Kancii.
p. Comes Rutland.
Comes Derbiæ.
Comes Cumbriæ.
p. Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Essex.
p. Comes Lincoln.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorset.
p. Comes Sarum.
p. Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
p. Comes Bridgwater.
p. Comes Leicestriæ.
p. Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwiciæ.
p. Comes Devon.
Comes Cantabr.
Comes Holdernesse.
Comes Carlile.
p. Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
p. Comes Angles.
Vicecomes Mountague.
p. Vicecomes Wallingford.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
p. Vicecomes Maunsfeild.
Vicecomes Colchester.
p. Vicecomes Rotchford.
p. Vicecomes Andever.
p. Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Zouch.
p. Ds. Willoughby de Er.
Ds. Delawarr.
p. Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et Mount.
Ds. Dacres de Herst.
p. Ds. Stafford.
p. Ds. Scroope.
p. Ds. Duddeley.
p. Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Herbert de Shep.
Ds. Darcy de Men.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
p. Ds. Wentworth.
p. Ds. Mordant.
p. Ds. St. John de Bas.
Ds. Cromewell.
Ds. Evre.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
p. Ds. St. John de Bl.
p. Ds. Howard de W.
Ds. Wootton.
p. Ds. Russell.
p. Ds. Grey de Groby.
p. Ds. Petre.
p. Ds. Danvers.
Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Say et Seale.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope de H.
p. Ds. Carew.
Ds. Arundell de W.
p. Ds. Haughton.
Ds. Teynham.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
p. Ds. Noel.
Ds. Brooke.
p. Ds. Mountague.
p. Ds. Cary de Lep.
Ds. Kensington.
p. Ds. Grey de Werke.

Lord Treasurer at the Bar.

THE Lord Treasurer being brought to the Bar (in Manner as before, and a Stool set for his Lordship), he informed the House, that (according to his Promise this Morning) Barrett is come, with Accompts for the Composition touching Grocery paid at Bristoll.

And it was Agreed, That they should be brought to the King's Counsel, to be perused.

Mr. Attorney General proceeded to the Charge concerning the Office of the Ordnance, and the unlawful Bargain for Sir Roger Dallison's Lands, in this Manner: videlicet,

Charge against him concerning the Office of Ordnance, &c.

"That the Fourth Charge, whereof the Lord Treasurer is accused, is concerning the Office of the Ordnance, and the Bargains for Dallison's Lands; in which will appear that the Lord Treasurer, for his own private Benefit, contrived and prosecuted divers unlawful Bargains; and, in the mean Time, neglected wholly that which concerned the Publick; which was, the furnishing of the Office of Ordnance with Emptions and Stores, for the Safety of the King and His Kingdoms.

"Concerning the Bargains, it stands proved, That Sir Roger Dallison, being Lieutenant of the Ordnance, became indebted unto the King in Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-two Pounds, for Moneys impressed for that Office, but not employed; and that Sir Roger Dallison and Sir Thomas Mounson were indebted to the King, by Bonds, to the Value of One and Thirty Hundred Pounds; which Bonds were forfeited for not bringing in certain Stores into that Office; both which Debts amounted to Thirteen Thousand One Hundred Sixty-two Pounds; and that the Lands of Dallison were extended for Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-two Pounds, and the Lands of Monson for One and Thirty Hundred Pounds; and that 20 Julii, 18 Jacobi, the King assigned these Extents to Francis Morrice, Clerk of the Ordnance, and others, in Trust for the Officers and Creditors of that Office, towards Satisfaction of so much of their Debts.

"The Lord Treasurer, being a Commissioner for His Majesty's Debts, 28 Julii, 19 Jacobi, bargained for those Extents; and, by Articles under his Hand, agreed to give therefor One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds in Hand, and Twelve Thousand Pounds more, by a Thousand Pounds per Annum, for Twelve Years, beginning at Our-Lady-day 1623; and also to do his Endeavour to procure Payment of an Arrear of Eight Thousand Pounds more, due to that Office from his Majesty: But, before this Bargain was performed, at Michaelmas following, he became Lord Treasurer; and, when they expected Payment of the One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, and Security for the rest, he propounded, that, in Lieu of the Twelve Thousand Pounds to be secured, they should have his Parts in the Farms of the Petty Customs, for Nine Years, valued to be worth a Thousand Pounds per Annum for the Two first Years, and afterwards Fourteen Hundred Pounds per Annum; which, according to that Rate, would yield in Nine Years Eleven Thousand Eight Hundred Pounds; but cost his Lordship only Three Thousand Seven Hundred Fifty Pounds.

"He being then Lord Treasurer, on whom they must depend both for Payment of their Arrears and for future Favours, they accepted it; not meaning to lose their One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, payable in Hand; but it was then again directly agreed, they should be paid their Eight Thousand Pounds Arrear out of His Majesty's Coffers.

"In February 1621, Assurances were prepared, and the Creditors required to seal; being promised to have at the Sealing their Eight Thousand Pounds Arrears, and expecting their One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds from the Lord Treasurer, whereof they never conceived Doubt: But, so soon as they had sealed, they were sent away without any Money; being promised to receive their Eight Thousand Pounds within Three or Four Days after; which was not performed in so short Time, but was after paid, in divers several Payments, out of His Majesty's Money: But the One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, which was to have come from himself, was absolutely denied; the Lord Treasurer affirming, that as well that One Thousand Sixty-two Pounds as the other Twelve Thousand Pounds was all concluded and recompensed by the Interest in the Petty Customs; whereupon a new Difference grew amongst them; and, in the End, they were enforced, in Lieu of that One Thousand Sixtytwo Pounds, to accept of a further Interest, which his Lordship had in the Petty Farms, for Half a Year after the Nine Years expired, esteemed worth not above Four Hundred Pounds to be sold: But it was then further agreed, that his Lordship should then pay them, out of the King's Money, Four Thousand Pounds more due to the Office, over and besides the former Eight Thousand Pounds, of which Four Thousand Pounds his Lordship hath since caused to be paid Three Thousand Three Hundred and Three Pounds.

"But, whereas the Petty Customs were valued to them to be worth for the first Two Years a Thousand Pounds per Annum, it appears that in the Two first Years it yielded them but Fourteen Hundred Nineteen Pounds, Seventeen Shillings, and Seven Pence, being all the Money that grew due to them out of the Profits of those Farms at Michaelmas last; whereas, if they had kept their Extents of Dallison's and Munson's Lands, they should have received, by Our-Lady-day last, almost Seven Thousand Pounds for Part of their Debt.

"In which Bargain, besides the Oppression and Extremities put on the poor Creditors and Officers of the Ordnance, that might ill undergo a Bargain of so much Disadvantage and Loss, are observed Two Corruptions; the one, in bargaining to pay the Eight Thousand Pounds Arrears; for though that was agreed before he was Lord Treasurer, yet he was then trusted as a Commissioner for the King's Debts; and, being after Lord Treasurer, performed that corrupt Agreement made before.

"The other Corruption was, in agreeing to pay the other Four Thousand Pounds; for, as it was Corruption in a Treasurer to pay the King's due Debt for Money given to himself, so is it to pay the King's Debt for gaining to himself a Bargain, by which he either had or did expect Advantage; and, though the Lord Treasurer, in his Answer, do pretend he is a Loser by Dallison's Land, it is certain that, whatsoever his Gain or Loss prove upon the other Bargains for the Inheritance of the Land, this Bargain with the Officers, taken by itself alone, was beneficial; and, if it were not, it is all one; for, if a Judge, or a Treasurer, bargain for a Bribe, though he never receive it, he is corrupt; for it skills not what he had, but what he aimed at and expected.

"About the same Time that the Lord Treasurer bargained for the Extent aforementioned, videlicet, in July 19°; Jacobi, he contracted with Sir Thomas Mounson for the Inheritance of the same Lands.

"For Sir Roger Dallison, after he became Lieutenant of the Ordnance, conveyed the Inheritance of these Lands to secure Sir Thomas Mounson of divers great Debts and Engagements; so as the Inheritance of those Lands, after the King's Extent, was in the Dispose of Sir Thomas Mounson, who bargained for it with the now Lord Treasurer; and, upon that Bargain, the Lord Treasurer agreed to free Sir Thomas Mounson's own Land of the Three Thousand One Hundred Pounds Debt, to pay him Three Thousand Pounds in Money, and to procure him the making of Six Baronets, and some other fit Suit from the King; and, when the Baronets could not be obtained, the Number being full, then the Lord Treasurer procured him another Suit, of Two Thousand Pounds Value, as his Lordship esteemed it; videlicet, for compounding with the King's Copyholders of Wakefeild, to reduce their Fines to Certainty: In which Suit, the Lord Treasurer was a Referee from the King; and, in Accomplishment of this Bargain, made for his own private Gain, gave Way to that Suit, whereby so much was to be taken from His Majesty. Yet there rested another Bargain to be made; for Sir Thomas Dalison, the Son and Heir of Sir Roger Dalison, pretended Title to these Lands by an old Entail; and the Lady Dalison, Widow of Sir Roger, claimed to have the Thirds for her Dower; and the Lord Treasurer having entered into Treaty with them, and finding their Demands not suitable to his Desires, he, to make them the more pliant, threatens them, by his Extent, to keep them without any thing for a Hundred Years; to lay upon Sir Thomas Dalison certain forfeited Bonds, which, upon the Agreement with the Officers of the Ordnance, were transferred to him; and he sends for Sir John Worstenham, whose Son had married Sir Thomas Dalison's Sister, and rebukes him as a Hinderer of his Lordship's Proceedings with Dalison; and by these and other like Means, for an Annuity of Two Hundred Pounds per Annum, procures a Release of their Title; and whereas Sir Roger Dalison, being possessed of a Lease of great Value, had assigned the same to Sir John Davie, for Security of Money owing to him and Sir Richard Smith; which Lease, for Non-payment, had been long forfeited, and the Possession gotten by Sir John Davie, upon a Trial and Recovery at Common Law, which Possession had continued divers Years; the Lord Treasurer, upon his Agreement with Sir Thomas Dalison and his Mother, by way of unlawful Maintenance and Champarty, bought their Title to this Lease; and, having thus hedged in these Lands, and the Title to this Lease, exchanged the same with Sir Arthur Ingram, for other Lands; and then, to gain the Possession of these Lease Lands from Sir John Davie and Sir Richard Smith, and to make good this Exchange, an old Outlawry against Sir Roger Dalison, before the Assignment made by him to Sir John Davie, is sought out, the Debt being many Years past satisfied; by Colour of which Outlawry, and the Power and Countenance of the Lord Treasurer, this Lease was seized into the King's Hands; and Sir Richard Smith and Sir John Davie thrust out of Possession; whereupon they endeavoured to reverse the Outlawry in the Common Pleas; and, the better to effect it, they procured an Administration of the Goods of Sir Roger Dalison to be taken by one Camden, a Creditor of Sir Roger, to the Intent the said Administrator might sue to reverse this Outlawry. But the Lord Treasurer, to prevent them therein, interposeth, in the King's Name, and in His Majesty's Behalf, to revoke that Administration; and, the better to countenance the Business, sends a Case to the King's Attorney, grounded upon other Matters, without mentioning the Outlawry, which was the chief Thing in Question; and, having obtained his Opinion on that Case, sends a Warrant to the King's Advocate, to proceed in the Ecclesiastical Court, as for the King, and in a Matter much concerning the King, to proceed for Reversal of the Administration; and in the End, by this Means, the Administration was revoked; and after, the Matter coming in Question in the Common Pleas, there also he interposed himself, and sent to the Judges of that Court, whereby Sir Richard Smith and Sir John Davy were at last inforced to accept of a Composition. Now, in Truth, this Matter no way concerned the King, for this Lease was never extended for Dalison's Debt; and, before the Lord Treasurer interposed in the Ecclesiastical Court, he had caused a Petition to be made, in the Name of Sir Thomas Dalison and his Mother, to the King, and a Reference thereupon to himself for this Lease (amongst other Things); it being secretly agreed between him and Dalison, that the whole Benefit of this Lease, when His Majesty should be pleased to pass it, should be at the Dispose of the Lord Treasurer.

"And whereas the Lord Treasurer would excuse these Proceedings, as being after he had transferred all to Sir Arthur Ingram; it is evident that the Lord Treasurer thus interposed, which must be either for his own Benefit, to support his own Bargain, or merely by way of Maintenance; and either way his Doings are most unwarrantable, to use such Rigour in the King's Name, either for himself, or for Sir Arthur Ingram."

Proofs of this Charge.

Mr. Attorney having thus opened the former Part of this Charge, the Clerk (by his Directions) read the Proofs: videlicet,

Copy of an Agreement between the Lord Treasurer and the Officers of the Ordnance.

"The Copy of that Agreement, made 28 Julii 1621, between the Lord Cranfeild and the Officers of the Ordnance, delivered upon Oath by Francis Morrice, the 3d of April 1624, whereby the Lord Cranfeild doth promise and agree (with the Officers of the Ordnance), so soon as he may conveniently, to do his best Endeavour to procure from His Majesty a certain Assignment and Order, for the Payment of the Sum of Eight Thousand Pounds unto the Lieutenant of the Ordnance, or his Deputy, to the Use of the said Officers, before the last Day of November next, towards the Payment of such Sums as are due, over and above the Sum of Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, for Payment whereof the said Officers have the Leases of the Lands of Sir Roger Dalison, and Sir Thomas Mounson, etc.

Note, "That this Agreement proves the Bargain also made by the said Lord Cranfeild with the said Officers for the said Leases of the Extents, in Manner as it is cited by Mr. Attorney."

Morrice's Examination.

And "The Examination of Francis Morrice, Clerk of the Ordnance, taken the said 3d of April, which affirms the said Bargain made by the said Lord Cranfeild; and that the said Lord Cranfeild becoming Lord Treasurer, the Payment on his Part did not proceed; but his Lordship, upon a new Agreement, did assign to the said Officers certain Leases, which were far over-valued unto them by his Lordship; and that his Lordship did not procure the said Assignment of Eight Thousand Pounds, according to his Agreement; but hath since given Satisfaction of the said Eight Thousand Pounds, and more, in several Payments out of His Majesty's Receipt."

Tait's Examination.

And then was read, "The Deposition of Lewes Tayte, containing a brief Relation of the Lord Treasurer's Dealings with certain Petitioners to His Majesty, for Debts owing unto them in the Office of the Ordnance; whereby it is also proved, that the Lord Treasurer was then a Commissioner for the King's Debts; and did wish the said Officers to accept of the said Leases of Sir Roger Dallison's and Sir Thomas Mounson's Lands, etc. and sets out the whole Proceedings of the Lord Treasurer therein at large."

Fletcher's ditto.

And "The Examination of John Fletcher, touching the said Agreement made by the Lord Cranfeild, and the Promise to procure the said Eight Thousand Pounds, etc."

Lord Treasurer's Answer.

And more Proofs being offered to be read, the Lord Treasurer said, "It is true, that he, being a Commissioner for the King's Debts, did advise the said Officers of the Ordnance to accept of a Lease of the Lands of Sir Roger Dalison and Sir Thomas Mounson, extended for the King for Thirteen Thousand Sixtytwo Pounds; videlicet, of Sir Roger Dalison's Lands, extended for Nine Thousand Nine Hundred Sixtytwo Pounds; and of Sir Thomas Mounson's Lands, for Three Thousand One Hundred Pounds; and they did accept of them for Payment of Thirteen Thousand Sixty-two Pounds, due to them by the King, with a Covenant to resort to the King, if they were interrupted of the Possession of those Lands: And that he did then find, that there was then due unto the said Officers, by the King, about Twenty Thousand Pounds: That the said Lands of Sir Thomas Mounson were worth One Thousand Six Hundred Pounds per Annum, and were extended but at Two Hundred Pounds per Annum, Sir Thomas Mounson being in Hope to have had the Benefit thereof himself; but, by Sir Edward Cooke's Rule, it was passed over to the Creditors: That Sir Thomas Mounson often petitioned the King; and His Majesty referred Sir Thomas Mounson to the Lord President and him: They treated with the Officers; who answered, That they relied on Sir Thomas Mounson's Lands, for that Sir Roger Dalison's Lands were so much incumbered, that they would yield little; yet the Exchequer Chamber would have relieved Sir Thomas Mounson, if he had paid the Debt for which his Lands were extended; and then the Officers must have resorted unto the King for Recompence: And that his Lordship gained in that Covenant, by his Bargain with the said Officers, so it was beneficial unto His Majesty; and his Promise to the Officers to help them to their Eight Thousand Pounds Arrear (being a just Debt) was before he was Treasurer: And that it is Heathen Greek to him how this should be prejudicial to the King."

Mr. Attorney's Reply.

Mr. Attorney replied, and affirmed, "The Bargains to be unlawful as before; and that there was not Eight Thousand Pounds Arrear due by the King before his Lordship was Lord Treasurer;" and then proceeded to the reading of the other Proofs.

To prove that, about July 1621, his Lordship contracted with Sir Thomas Mounson for his Lands for Three Thousand Pounds, which was paid him for the making of Six Baronets, and a Suit to the King; and, in Lieu of the Baronets, a Suit touching the Copyholders of Wakefeild, valued by his Lordship at Two Thousand Pounds, were read:

Mounson's Examination.

"1. The Examination of Sir Thomas Mounson, taken the 5th of April 1624.

Ingram's ditto.

"2. The Examination of Sir Arthur Ingram, taken the 12th of April 1624, for the Three Thousand Pounds; and that he signified unto Sir Thomas Mounson, that the Lord Treasurer would undertake to procure him the making of Six Baronets, for that the Lord Treasurer had told him, that he found the King inclinable to do Sir Thomas Mounson good.

Mounson's Petition concerning the Copyholders of Wakefield.

"3. The Copy of Sir Thomas Mounson's Petition to the King, for reducing the Fines of the Copyholders of Wakefeild to a Certainty, in Lieu of some Baronets formerly granted him; and the Warrant thereupon signed by the Lord Treasurer and Sir Humfrey May (to whom it was referred), delivered upon the Oath of Mr. Brewster, 16 Aprilis 1624," was also read.

May's Examination.

And "The Examination of Sir Humfrey May, Knight, Chancellor of the Dutchy of Lancaster, taken the Fourth of May 1624, ex parte Domini Thesaurarii, That he was present when Sir Arthur Ingram did, on the Lord Treasurer's Behalf, bargain with Sir Thomas Mounson for his Lands; which Bargain was, that the Lord Treasurer should give Sir Thomas Mounson Three Thousand Pounds, should procure him the making of Six Baronets, and should lease Dalison's Lands unto him at Twelve Hundred Pounds per Annum; and afterwards, the Baronets being otherwise disposed of by the King, Sir Thomas Mounson petitioned the King touching the Copyholders of Wakefeild, etc."

Lord Treasurer's Answer.

Unto which the Lord Treasurer answered, "That he never promised the making of the Baronets, nor authorized Sir Arthur Ingram to propound it."

Then was read, to prove that the Lord Treasurer pressed Sir Thomas Dalison to depart with his Estate at an Under-value:

Examinations concerning Sir Thomas Dalison's Estate.

1. "The Examination of Sir Thomas Dalison, Baronet, taken the 6th of April 1624.

2. "The Examination of the said Sir Thomas Dalison, taken the 12th of April 1624;

3. And, "The Examination of Sir John Wolstenholm, taken the 16th of April 1624."

And, to prove that the Lord Treasurer, having made these Compositions, sets on Foot an old Outlawry of Sir Roger Dalison (long since satisfied), thereby to wrest a Lease of great Value from Sir Richard Smyth and Sir John Davic, interposing the Power of his Place and the Countenance of the King's Service to oppress them for his own private Ends; these Examinations were read: videlicet,

"The Examination of Sir Thomas Dalison.

"The Examination of Sir Arthur Ingram, ex parte Domini Thesaurarii, taken the 3d of May 1624, to the Seventh Interrogatory.

"And the Examination of Sir Richard Smyth, taken the 16th of April 1624.

"The Examination of Robert Eallston, taken the 27th of April, 1624.

"And The Case brought to Mr. Attorney by Mr. Mayle, with his Direction."

Memorandum, That in that Case no Mention is made of any Outlawry, but that the King was unsatisfied of Dalison's Charge.

And "The Lord Treasurer's Letter to Doctor Rives (the King's Advocate), to revoke the Letters of Administration of Dalison's Goods."

Lord Treasurer's Answer.

These being read, the Lord Treasurer again affirmed, "That his Bargain with the Officers of the Ordnance was beneficial for the King, for it gained in His Majesty's Covenant of Resort from the Officers;" and said further, "That it is not prejudicial to the Officers; for, if his Second Bargain be not as beneficial unto them as his First should have been, he is to make it good; and that Sir Thomas Dalison and his Lady Mother have Relief thereby; and himself a great Loser, at the least Four Thousand Pounds; having taken up Sixteen Thousand Pounds for it, for which he pays Interest at this Day."

And his Lordship denied, "That he drew the Case delivered to Mr. Attorney, touching the Administration of Dalison's Goods;" and said, "He deserved to be hanged that drew it."

And having spoken as much as he would, the Clerk read the Heads of the Examinations taken on his Part; and Mr. Attorney confessed them, and avoided them all; wherewith his Lordship seemed to rest satisfied, for he did not require any Thing else to be read; but said further, "That he had paid Arrears to the Officers of the Navy as well as to those of the Ordnance, which shews that he did not pay them by Way of a Bargain only."

And then the Lord Treasurer said, "He would say no more," * and was withdrawn.

And Agreed, That Mr. Attorney should begin Tomorrow where he now left, with the rest of his Charge.

And that the Lord Treasurer be warned to appear here again, at the Bar, To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock.

Memorandum, That the Gentleman Usher carried this Message to his Lordship.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, diem Martis, 11m diem Maii, hora nona, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Origin. Denbiæ.
* Deest in Origin.