House of Lords Journal Volume 3
11 May 1624

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 3: 11 May 1624', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 3: 1620-1628 (1767-1830), pp. 370-377. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=30417 Date accessed: 29 July 2014.


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DIE Martis, videlicet ,11 die Maii,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

p. Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburg.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
p. Epus. Norwicen.
p. Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Glocestren.
Epus. Carlien.
p. Epus. Co. et Lich.
p. Epus. Bath. et W.
p. Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Elien.
Epus. Cicestren.
Epus. Oxon.
p. Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Landaven.
Epus. Sarum.
p. Epus. Exon.
p. Epus. Meneven.
p. Epus. Bristol.
p. Epus. Asaphen.
p. Epus. Lincoln, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
Comes Midd. Magnus Thesaur. Angliæ.
p. Vicecomes Maundevill, Præs. Concilii Domini Regis.
p. Comes Wigorn, Ds. Custos Privati Sigilli.
Dux Buck. Magnus Admirall. Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
Comes Oxon. Magnus Camerarius Angliæ.
p. Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Marescallus Angliæ.
p. Comes Cantabr. Senescallus Hospitii.
p. Comes Pembroc, Camerarius Hospitii.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Salop.
p. Comes Kancii.
Comes Derbiæ.
p. Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Essex.
p. Comes Lincoln.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorsett.
p. Comes Sarum.
p. Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
p. Comes Bridgwater.
p. Comes Leicestrie.
p. Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
p. Comes Devon.
Comes March.
Comes Holdernesse.
Comes Carlile.
p. Comes Denbig.
Comes Bristol.
p. Comes Angles.
Vicecomes Mountague.
p. Vicecomes Wallingford.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
p. Vicecomes Maunsfeild.
Vicecomes Colchester.
p. Vicecomes Rochford.
p. Vicecomes Andever.
p. Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Zouch.
p. Ds. Willoughby de Er.
p. Ds. Delawarr.
p. Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et Mount.
Ds. Dacres de Her.
Ds. Stafford.
p. Ds. Scroope.
p. Ds. Duddeley.
p. Ds. Stourton.
Ds. Herbert.
Ds. Darcy et Menn.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
p. Ds. Wentworth.
p. Ds. Mordant.
p. Ds. St. John de Bas.
p. Ds. Cromewell.
Ds. Evre.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
p. Ds. St. John de Bl.
p. Ds. Howard de W.
Ds. Wootton.
p. Ds. Russell.
p. Ds. Grey de Groby.
p. Ds. Petre.
p. Ds. Danvers.
p. Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Say et Seale.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope de H.
p. Ds. Carewe.
Ds. Arundell de War.
p. Ds. Haughton.
Ds. Teynham.
Ds. Stanhope de Sh.
p. Ds. Noel.
Ds. Brooke.
p. Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Cary de Lep.
Ds. Kensington.
p. Ds. Grey de Werke.

THE Petition of the Lord Treasurer was read, in bæc verba: videlicet,

Lord Treasurer's Petition.

"To the most Honourable Assembly of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in the Higher House of Parliament assembled.

"With most humble and thankful Acknowledgment of your Lordships Honourable Patience, in hearing those Parts of my Cause which are already opened; I am now most humbly to beseech your Pardon of mine Appearance before your Lordships this Day; finding myself so distempered in my Body, and my Spirits so weakened and spent, as out of Necessity enforceth me to be an humble Petitioner unto your Lordships for this little Respite of Time; my End and Desire herein being to enable myself to obey all your Commands, and to hasten the Ending of this Cause of mine; whereof I doubt not but your Lordships, in a true and noble Sense of my Case, will honourably consider (fn. *) accordingly.

"Middelsex."

Lords appointed to visit him, to know if he was really ill; and to signify the Displeasure of the House to him.

The House, having considered of this Petition, appointed these Lords: videlicet,

The E. of South'ton,
E. of Essex,
L. Bp. of Co. et Lich.
L. Bp. of Bangor,
L. Cromwell,
L. Say et S.

To go presently to the Lord Treasurer's House, and to take a Physician with them; and to signify unto his Lordship the Displeasure of the House, for that he hath first taken Leave of himself to be absent, and now craves Pardon for it; whereas his Lordship ought first to have craved Leave to be absent.

And also to signify unto his Lordship (unless they shall see Cause to the contrary by reason of his Sickness), That the Pleasure of the House is, "That his Lordship appear here this Afternoon, at Two of the Clock; and that, if his Lordship shall fail to come accordingly, (fn. †) the House will proceed, as well touching such Parts of his Charge as are already opened, as for the rest of his Charge also."

Report of the Lord Treasurer's Situation.

These Lords being returned from Chelsey, where the Lord Treasurer then lay; the Earl of South'ton reported, That they delivered the said Message unto his Lordship, whom they found in his Bed, but not sick, for aught their Lordships or the Physician could perceive; neither did his Lordship pretend any Sickness; and their Lordships having delivered their Message unto him, he excused his not asking of Leave first to be absent, for that he had not Warning to be here this Morning until after the House was risen the last Night; and, sith the Pleasure of the House is such, he will attend this Afternoon, if he hears not by some Message from their Lordships that they will be pleased to respite him till Tomorrow Morning.

Further Report.

And the Earl of Essex made this further Report: videlicet,

"Having this Day delivered to the Lord Treasurer the Message which we were commanded by the House, his Lordship, besides the Answer that hath been returned to the House, did let fall these Speeches in Substance:

"For a Man to be thus followed Morning and Afternoon, standing Eight Hours at the Bar, till some of the Lords might see him ready to fall down; Two Lawyers against him, and no Man of his Part; was such a Proceeding as never was heard of; and he knew not what it meant, for it was unchristian-like, and without Example; and desired they would deal with him as he would deal with One of them; for it was his Cause To-day, and might be theirs To-morrow."

This Answer was signed by these Lords:

H. South'ton.
Ro. Essex.
Tho. Co. et Lich.
Lewes Bangor.
Tho. Cromwell.
W. Say et Seale.

Lord Mountague's Privilege. Bennet's arrest.

Complaint was made to the House, that one Bennett, Servant to Lord Viscount Mountague, was arrested, contrary to the Privileges of this House, by Little and Osbourne.

Ordered, The Offenders to be sent for, to answer this Contempt.

Woolen Cloths.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for Continuance of a former Statute, made in the Fourth Year of the King's Majesty's Reign of England, etc. An Act for the true making of Woolen Cloth, and for some Additions and Alterations in and to the same.

Cutlery Wares in Yorkshire.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the good Order and Government of the making of Knives, Sickles, Shears, Scissars, and other Cutlery Wares, in Hallameshire, in the County of Yorke, and the Parts near adjoining.

Confirmation of Hospitals and Free-Schools.

Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Confirmation and Continuance of Hospitals and Free-schools.

Put to the Question, and generally Assented unto.

Town and Haven of Colchester.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Repairing and Maintaining of the Haven, River, and Channel, unto the Borough and Town of Colchester, in the County of Essex, and also for the Paving of the said Town.

New-erecting of Inns.

Hodie 1a vice lecta est Billa, An Act concerning the New-erecting and Ordering of Inns.

Preservation of Bastards.

Hodie 1a et 2a vice lecta est Billa, An Act to prevent the destroying and murthering of Bastard Children:

And committed unto,

E. of Rutland.
E. of North'ton.
L. Bp. of Norwich.
L. Bp. of Bristoll.
L. Scroope.
L. Mordant.
L. Wentworth.
L. Haughton.
Mr. Justice Hutton,
Mr. Justice Jones
To attend the Lords.,

To meet presently.

The Earl of Rutland reported the said Bill fit to pass, with One Amendment. The said Amendment was presently read, and the Bill re-committed to the former Committees.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in pomeridianum hujus diei, hora secunda, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Post meridiem,

Domini tam Spirituales quam Temporales, quorum nomina subscribuntur, præsentes fuerunt:

p. Carolus Princeps Walliæ, etc.

p. Archiepus. Cant.
Archiepus. Eborum.
p. Epus. London.
p. Epus. Dunelm.
Epus. Winton.
Epus. Petriburg.
Epus. Hereforden.
Epus. Wigorn.
p. Epus. Norwicen.
p. Epus. Roffen.
Epus. Glocestren.
Epus. Carlien.
p. Epus. Co. et Lich.
p. Epus. Bath. et W.
p. Epus. Bangor.
Epus. Elien.
Epus. Cicestren.
p. Epus. Oxon.
p. Epus. Cestren.
p. Epus. Landaven.
p. Epus. Sarum.
p. Epus. Exon.
p. Epus. Meneven.
p. Epus. Bristol.
p. Epus. Asaphen.
p. Epus. Lincoln, Ds. Custos Mag. Sigilli.
p. Comes Middlesex, Mag. Thesaur. Angliæ.
p. Comes Wigorn, Ds. Custos Privati Sigilli.
Dux Buckingham, Magnus Admirallus Angliæ.
Marchio Winton.
p. Comes Oxon, Magnus Camer. Angliæ.
p. Comes Arundell et Surr. Comes Marescallus Angliæ.
p. Comes Cantabr. Senesc. Hospitii.
p. Comes Pembr[o]]c, Camer. Hospitii.
Comes Northumbriæ.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Salop.
p. Comes Kancii.
Comes Derbiæ.
p. Comes Rutland.
Comes Cumbriæ.
p. Comes Sussex.
Comes Huntingdon.
Comes Bath.
p. Comes South'ton.
Comes Bedford.
Comes Hertford.
p. Comes Essex.
p. Comes Lincoln.
Comes Suffolciæ.
Comes Dorsett.
p. Comes Sarum.
p. Comes Exon.
p. Comes Mountgomery.
p. Comes Bridgwater.
p. Comes Leicestriæ.
p. Comes North'ton.
Comes Warwic.
p. Comes Devon.
Comes March.
Comes Holdernesse.
Comes Carlile.
p. Comes Denbigh.
Comes Bristol.
Comes Angles.
Vicecomes Mountague.
Vicecomes Wallingford.
Vicecomes Purbeck.
Vicecomes Maunsfeild.
Vicecomes Colchester.
Vicecomes Rotchford.
Vicecomes Andever.
Vicecomes Tunbridge.
Ds. Abergavenny.
Ds. Audley.
Ds. Zouch.
p. Ds. Willoughby de E.
Ds. Delawarr.
p. Ds. Berkley.
Ds. Morley et Mount.
Ds. Dacres de H.
Ds. Vaux.
Ds. Windsore.
p. Ds. Wentworth.
p. Ds. Mordant.
p. Ds. St. John de Bas.
Ds. Cromewell.
Ds. Evre.
p. Ds. Sheffeild.
p. Ds. Pagett.
Ds. North.
p. Ds. St. John de Bletso.
p. Ds. Howard de Walden.
Ds. Wootton.
p. Ds. Russell.
p. Ds. Grey de Grooby.
p. Ds. Petre.
p. Ds. Danvers.
Ds. Spencer.
p. Ds. Say et Seale.
p. Ds. Denny.
p. Ds. Stanhope de H.
p. Ds. Carewe.
Ds. Arundell de Wardoure.
p. Ds. Haughton.
Ds. Teynham.
Ds. Stanhope de. Shelford.
p. Ds. Noel.
Ds. Brooke.
p. Ds. Mountague.
p. Ds. Cary de Leppington.
Ds. Kensington.
p. Ds. Grey de Werke.

Ld Treasurer's Charge, touching Stores and Munitions.

THE Lord Treasurer being brought to the Bar (as before), the Clerk read that Part of the Charge against his Lordship which concerneth the Munitions.

The Lord Keeper moved, That Mr. Attorney do hold himself to that Charge.

Mr. Attorney proceeded in this Manner: videlicet, "As in the Bargains and Proceedings (which were opened Yesterday) the Lord Treasurer was overmuch intentive to his own private Profit; so in the Supply of the Office of Ordnance (a Matter of high Importance for the Safety of the King and His Kingdoms, and in a Time when all Christendom besides ourselves was in a Combustion) he was wholly remiss; for whereas, by a Privy Seal in 6° Jacobi, there was an Establishment of Six Thousand Pounds per Annum for the Office of Ordnance, which being put out of Order in the Time of Sir Roger Dalison, about 12° ; Jacobi, the Lords of the Council, in November 1617, upon Reference from the King, set down a Proportion of Supply, amounting to Fifty-four Thousand Seventy-eight Pounds, Eight Shillings, and Eight Pence; and the standing Allowance of Six Thousand Pounds per Annum to continue; and after, in February 1619, there being a Commission awarded to the Commissioners of the Navy to survey the Office of Ordnance, the said Commissioners (the Lord Treasurer himself being a chief Man among them) set down a Proportion of Supply, amounting but to Thirteen Thousand Six Hundred Forty Pounds, Fourteen Shillings, and Two Pence, and a Yearly Allowance of Three Thousand Pounds; retrenching it unto that Rate from Six Thousand Pounds; and did set down a Course that, this being observed, a needless Charge of about Ten Thousand Pounds per Annum should be cut off; and this was allowed both by the Lords and by the King Himself.

"The Earl of Midd. becoming Treasurer about Michaelmas 1621, and having continued in that Office about Two Years and a Half, did observe none of these Establishment; whereby the Office is at this present both unrepaired and unsupplied, and the Kingdom of Ireland destitute of any considerable Quantity of Arms and Munition; for it appears, by the Records of the King's Receipt, that all the Moneys, which the Lord Treasurer, in his Time, issued for Supply of the Ordinary of the Office of Ordnance, was but Thirteen Thousand Thirty-four Pounds, Eight Shillings, and Eleven Pence; of which Eight Thousand and odd Pounds was for old Arrears; Three Thousand Three Hundred Pounds more grew due of latter Time, but were paid; not out of Duty or Care of the Public, but by Bargain and Contract; and most of these Moneys issued, besides old Arrears, were for Wages and Allowances of Officers, and little or nothing for Stores and Provisions; for, upon the Quarter Books paid by his Lordship, beginning at the Quarter Book ended ultimo Junii 1620, unto the Quarter Book ended the last of December 1622, there being paid about Five Thousand Five Hundred Pounds; Four Thousand Six Hundred and odd Pounds thereof went to Officers; but the Store and Provisions amounted but to Nine Hundred and odd Pounds; a weak Supply in so long Time!

"And whereas, in April 1621, a Contract was made with Mr. Evelin, for serving His Majesty with Eighty Lasts of Powder Yearly, by Monthly Proportion, at Seven Pence the Pound; which Proportion being kept, would have yielded a plentiful Supply unto the Office of Ordnance, and the Overplus might have been sold at Three Pence a Pound Profit to His Majesty; the Lord Treasurer, though he was continually solicited by Evelyn, did not make the Payment which should have been made upon that Contract; whereby Evelyn, according to the Liberty that was allowed by his Contract, sold his Powder to others; and, in Five and Thirty Months after that Contract, served into the Stores but Fifteen Months Proportion; and upon Breach of this Contract did ensue these Inconveniencies: videlicet, That the Stores, which, for the Service of all His Majesty's Kingdoms, might have had in Readiness Two Hundred Sixty-six Lasts of Powder, and Sixty Lasts of Salt petre, which would have really made Eighty Lasts of Powder more, so in all Three Hundred Forty-six Lasts; by this Neglect, upon a late Survey, there was in all but One Hundred Thirty Lasts in the Stores; and yet Irelana wholly disfurnished: And besides, His Majesty, by Sale of the Overplus of the Powder, above the Proportion thought fit to be kept by the Commissioners of the Navy, might have gained Three Pence in every Pound, which would have amounted to Four Thousand and Fifty Pounds and above; all which His Majesty lost by this Default of the Lord Treasurer: And whereas his Lordship excuseth these Things by Pretence of Sadler's Complaints, it appears that those Complaints grew by Occasion of Evelyn's selling of Powder to others, not to the King; which had never been if he might have had due Payment; and the Lord Treasurer was warned, both by the Lord Carewe and by the Commissioners of the Navy, to have special Care of these Payments, to save the Contract, being of high Consequence."

Then the Clerk read the Proofs: videlicet,

Proofs of the Charge.

To prove that the King granted a dormant Privy Seal, 28 Maii, Anno 6° Jacobi, for the issuing of Six Thousand Pounds per Annum for the Office of the Ordnance, was read,

"The Copy of the said Privy Seal."

To prove that this Allowance was paid until 1 Aprilis, Anno 1614; and about that Time the Office was put out of Order by Sir Roger Dalison, and he grew into great Arrears to the King; was read,

"A Declaration (by the Officers of the Ordnance, delivered upon Oath 6 Aprilis 1624) of the Cause of the present Weakness of the Stores of His Majesty's Office of the Ordnance."

To prove that, in November 1617, the Lords, upon a Reference from the King, did set down a Proportion of Supply, amounting unto Fifty-four Thousand Seventyeight Pounds, Eight Shillings, Eight Pence, was read,

"The said Declaration of the Officers of the Ordnance."

To prove that, in February 1619, the King granted a Commission unto the Commissioners of the Navy, to survey the Office of the Ordnance; and that, in July 1620, the Commissioners of the Navy (the Lord Treasurer being One) returned a Certificate for Supply of the said Office, with Thirteen Thousand Six Hundred Forty Pounds, Fourteen Shillings, and Two Pence; and to retrench the Ordinary from Six Thousand Pounds to Three Thousand Pounds per Annum; and to cut off some needless Charges, amounting to Ten Thousand Pounds per Annum, and that this was allowed by the King and Lords; was read,

"The Deposition of Mr. John Cooke, the 5th of April 1624."

To prove that, in October 1621, the Earl of Midd. became Lord Treasurer; and that, in Two Years and a Half, he pursued none of these Establishments, were read.

"The said Declaration of the Officers of the Ordnance, and the said Depositions of the said Mr. John Cooke."

To prove that, by this Means, the said Office is both unrepaired and unsupplied, and Ireland hath not any fit Proportion of Munition, were read,

"The said Declaration of the said Officers of the Ordnance, and the said Depositions of the said John Cooke, as touching the Office of the Ordnance.

And "The Abstract, or Estimate, of all the Armour, Arms, Powder, Lead, and Hand Weapons, remaining in the several Storehouses within the Realm of Ireland, the First of March 1623, delivered upon Oath by the Lord Cranfeild."

To prove that, in April 1621, a Contract was made with John Evelyn, to serve Fourscore Lasts of Powder Yearly, at Seven Pence the Pound; and that this Contract hath been broken in the Lord Treasurer's Default, whereby there are Two Hundred Sixty-four Lasts of Powder less in Store than would have been; and the King hath lost Four Thousand and Fifty Pounds (in the Sale of Fourscore Lasts of Powder, which he might have sold, if that Contract had been observed, at Ten Pence the Pound (the King paying but Seven Pence); and that the Lord Treasurer was warned thereof, were read,

"The said Depositions of Mr. John Cooke.

"The said Declaration of the Officers of the Ordnance.

"The Examination of John Evelyn, taken the 9th of April 1624; the Examination of John Evelyn taken on the Part of the Lord Treasurer the 5th of May 1624.

"And the Examination of Nicholas Stott, taken on the Part of the Lord Treasurer the 4th of May 1624.

"The Lord Carewe's Letter to the Lord Treasurer, 6th November 1621.

"Two Certificates of the Commissioners of the Navy; the One, the Ninth of May 1622; and the other, the Fourth of November 1622. Deposed by John Evelyn, 9th April 1624."

And "An Abstract of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, for Charges of the Office of the Ordnance, from Michaelmas 1621, in the 19th Year of His Majesty's Reign, until the Second of April 1624; examined and delivered by Sir Roberte Pye, Auditor of the Receipt of the Exchequer;" was also read, to shew what the Lord Treasurer had paid concerning that Office.

The Lord Treasurer answered:

Ld. Treasurer's Answer.

"I had need, in the First Place, to pray for Patience, so much Pains being taken by Mr. Attorney to make me appear a faulty Man."

Unto which the Lord Keeper replied, "That the Lords conceive that these Words are a Wrong unto them; and he conceived that they are a great Wrong unto his Lordship (the Lord Treasurer), who, being a Judge, makes no Difference of a Charge."

He complains of the Attorney General.

The Lord Treasurer answered, "That he is injuriously dealt withall; and that no Peer hath been charged in this Place before by the King's Counsel."

And being demanded by the Lord Keeper, "Wherein he is injuriously dealt with:" He answered, "By Mr. Attorney's opening the Proofs by Parcels, by directing Parts of the Depositions to be read, which should have been done wholly and together."

Who is cleared by the House.

The Lords conceived themselves to be wronged by these Words, for that Mr. Attorney had done nothing but as Attendant to the House, and by their Direction; and therefore the Prince his Highness willed him (the Lord Treasurer) to clear Mr. Attorney; or else this Aspersion will light very heavy upon him. And the House did acquit Mr. Attorney for any Thing he had said or done herein.

Then Mr. Attorney opened the Heads of this Charge again: videlicet,

Charge touching the Stores and functions opened again.

"The first Settlement of the Office of the Ordnance, Anno 6° Jacobi; The Second Settlement by the Lords, Anno 1617; and the Third Settlement by the Commissioners of the Navy, 1620;" and that the Lord Treasurer had observed none of them.

Ld. Treasurer's Answer.

The Lord Treasurer answered, "As touching the Second Settlement, nothing hath been done upon it to this Day; and yet it was made Four Years before he was Treasurer. As touching the Third Settlement, it was propounded only, and opposed, but never allowed; if allowed, it was Thirteen Months before he was Treasurer, and yet nothing done in it (ut per Cookes own Oath): That he had no Privy Seal for it; and how then can he be charged with the Breach of that Settlement, which was never settled? but he will not give that for Answer." And then his Lordship affirmed, "That the Stores are furnished; and that he had paid all the said Ordinary of Three Thousand Pounds per Annum, save Three Hundred Pounds, though no Privy Seal was sued our upon that Book presented by the Commissioners of the Navy; and paid divers other Sums of Money for Provisions of the Stores, whereof his Lordship recited the particular Sums. And whereas that Office was unsettled by Sir Roger Dalison; he, being a Commissioner for the King's Debts, found due to the Officers Eighteen Thousand Pounds, and caused Thirteen Thousand Pounds of it to be paid by Dalison's Land, and the rest to be paid also afterwards, so that a small Sum will now settle that Office, which was then so unsettled.

"As touching the Powder, That when he came to be Treasurer he found but One Hundred and Sixteen Lasts of Powder, whereof One and Twenty Lasts, delivered by Evelyn, were left unpaid for; and that he paid him Two Thousand Pounds Arrear. Though Sixty Lasts of Salt-petre be not in the King's Store, yet there is so much in Evelyn's Warehouse; and then it is the King's; neither can the King receive such Detriment or Loss; for, when Eveline is paid, he is to make Allowance of the Powder by him sold.

And affirmed, "That he had paid more for Powder than was paid in Seven Years before; and his Lordship directed to be read the Examination of Andrea Bassano, taken on his Lordship's Part the Fourth of May 1624; who deposeth (to the Third Interrogatory) that the Total of Gun-powder remaining in the Stores of the Office of the Ordnance, on the First of October 1621, was One Hundred and Sixteen Lasts, or thereabouts; and the Store of Powder remaining in the Stores of the said Office, on the last of March 1624, was One Hundred Thirty-one Lasts, or thereabouts, whereof Nineteen unserviceable, etc. and that the Arrear for Gunpowder was paid to Mr. Evelin by the now Lord Treasurer; but what the Arrear was, the said Deponent knoweth not, etc."

Attorney general's Reply.

Mr. Attorney replied, "That Mr. Eveline cannot be called to an Account but for Powder sold after he is paid, and not for any Powder sold before he is paid."

Proof.

And, to prove the same, the Clerk read "The Abstract of the Covenants with Evelyne, videlicet, of the Sixth Covenant, to accompt for the Powder sold after Payment."

And whereas the Lord Treasurer affirmed, "That the Third Settlement made by the Commissioners of the Navy was opposed, and so not settled;" "It is true (said Mr. Attorney) it was opposed by the Officers of the Ordnance; and yet afterwards submitted unto by them, so then it wanted nothing but a Privy Seal to settle it; and that his Lordship was not to expect that the Officers of the Ordnance would further this Proposition of the Commissioners of the Navy (touching the said Third Settlement), for it took from them Ten Thousand Pounds Yearly, in Fees and other Unnecessaries; so that it concerned his Lordship (who knew this, being one of the Commissioners) to see it settled by a Privy Seal, and observed; and yet his Lordship hath done nothing in it these Two Years and a Half since he was Treasurer." And as touching those particular Sums of Money which his Lordship recites to be paid by him for Provisions, Mr. Attorney replied, "That, besides the said Thirteen Thousand Pounds paid by Dalison's Lands, and the said Eight Thousand Pounds paid by his Lordship upon his Lordship's aforesaid first Contract with the Officers, and the Four Thousand Pounds upon his said Second Contract, his Lordship hath not paid a full Thousand Pounds for Provisions; the rest he paid for Wages only. And that thereby the Stores are found to be unfurnished and weak, which would have been well supplied if the Three Thousand Pounds per Annum had been paid for the Store of the Magazine."

Thus ended that Charge.

The Charge touching the Office of the Ordnance being ended, Mr. Serjeant Crewe opened that of the Court of Wards: videlicet,

Charge touching the Court of Wards.

"That whereas, in December 1618, Instructions for the Court of Wards was set out, upon great Advisement with the Lord Chancellor of England, the Two Lords Chief Justices, and the Officers of that Court; the Lord Treasurer, by his Importunity and Power with the Officers, and by his Misinformation to the King (waving a Reference to divers Lords of the Council), procured those Instructions to be altered, to the Prejudice of the King, and Oppression of the Subject; for, by the former Instructions (Anno 1618), Petitions for Wardships were to be delivered to the Clerk of the Court, who was to enter them without Fee; but, by these Instructions (Anno 1622), the Petitions are first to be delivered to the Master, to the End he may subscribe his Directions; and then the Master's Secretary to make Entry thereof the same Day it is delivered, and return it to the Suitor, who is to present it to the Clerk, and the Clerk to enter it without Fee; so the Clerk of the Court stands still restrained by these latter Instructions to take any Fees for entering of Petitions; but the Master's Secretary is not restrained, and (being unlimited) he hath taken great Fees for entering of these Petitions.

"And whereas, by the former Instructions (Anno 1618), all Tenders and Continuances of Liveries were to be made unto the Surveyor of that Court; now, by these latter Instructions, they are to be made to the Master first, and afterwards to the Surveyor, but without Improvement of the Fee; and, by Colour of these Instructions, the Fees for Continuances of Liveries are raised from Ten Shillings the Term to Twenty Shillings the Term.

"And whereas, before, no Ward was esteemed a concealed Ward, unless no Suit had been made within Three Years after the Death of the Tenant; now, by these latter Instructions, the Master hath Power alone to dispose of Wardships concealed but one Year; so that the Master may make any a concealed Ward, by concealing the Petition, and not entering it with the Clerk, the Petition being hereby appointed to be delivered to the Master first.

"And that the Master of this Court of Wards (the Lord Treasurer) hath committed unto his Secretary a Stamp of his Name, and hath thereby put his own Power into the Hands of his Secretary; for his Secretary hath used this Stamp, in the Absence of the Master, for signing of Tenders and Continuances, for Warrants to the Great Seal, for Liveries, and Warrants to find Offices, for Grants of Wardships, Leases, Indentures, and the like, and for expediting of Judicial Acts in the Court; and that this Stamp may be a ready Way to make concealed Wardships, and may take away Mesne Rates due to the King for Want of Livery, and may antedate Tenders and Continuances and Petitions, by reason whereof the King may be prejudiced great Sums, in preferring one before another to Wardships."

This being said, the Clerk was directed to read the Proofs.

And, for that, in the Opening of this Charge, the Lord Keeper delivered to the Lords a Message from the King: videlicet,

Message from the King.

"That the Alteration of these Instructions was debated before His Majesty at Wansted, by the Master and Officers of that Court; and that His Majesty understood that the Alteration was for the Honour and Profit of the Master; and intended that the Master should enjoy that Office as amply as the Earl of Salisbury, or the Lord Viscount Wallingford: But, if any new Fees are exacted since, His Majesty disavows that; and, if the Master hath used the new Instructions to the Prejudice of the King or Subject, He disavows that also; but avows His precise Knowledge of the Alteration of the said Instructions."

And therefore no Examinations were read to prove the Lord Treasurer's Importunity and Pressure to have those Instructions altered.

These Examinations were read: videlicet,

Proofs of the Charge touching the Court of Wards. Examination of the Officers of that Court.

"The Answer of Sir Benjamyn Rudyerd, Knight, Surveyor of the Liveries, and Sir Walter Pye, Knight, Attorney of the Court of Wards and Liveries, John Tooke, Esquire, Auditor General of the said Court, and of Richard Chamberlaine, Gentleman, Clerk of the said Court, unto certain Questions demanded of them; who do all affirm that, by the former Instructions (Anno 1618), the Petitions were delivered only to the Clerk, who was to enter them without Fee: but, by the latter Instructions, the Master's Secretary is to enter them before they come to the Clerk; and the said Secretary is not restrained from taking of Fees."

Welde's Examination.

To prove that the Secretary had taken great Fees for Petitions, were read, "The Examination of William Welde, taken the 21st of April 1624: That, about Christmas was Twelve-months, he delivered to Mr. Harman, Secretary to the Lord Treasurer, from the Lady Edmunds, Three Fruit-dishes of Silver, worth (as he believeth) between Forty Shillings and Three Pounds a-piece, for the Furtherance of her Business and Petitions, touching the Wardship of her Son.

Debden's Ditto.

"The Examination of Robert Debden, taken the same Day: That he delivered to Mr. Harman a Letter, and Five Pounds Ten Shillings in Gold, from Mr. Brewster; and received from him a Schedule concerning a Wardship, to deliver to Mr. Brewster.

Brewster's Ditto.

"The Examination of Edmund Brewster, taken the same Day, to the same Effect; and that it was for a Schedule of a Composition of the Wardship of Sir Thomas Barker; and that the said Composition was made in Trinity Term was Two Years, by the rest of the Council, in the Absence of the Lord Treasurer; and that, for a Month after, he solicited the Lord Treasurer and Mr. Harman for a Dispatch thereof, but could not prevail; the Lord Treasurer himself telling him that he liked not the Composition. Whereupon, after Hilary Term, lest Process should go forth, he wrote a Letter to Harman, promising to be thankful; and receiving Answer that it was dispatched, he sent the said Money, and had the aforesaid Composition.

Bradford's Ditto.

"The Examination of Elizabeth Bradford, taken the same Day: That she offered Harman Ten Shillings for her Petition to the Lord Treasurer, for the Wardship of her Daughter; and he refused, and told her his Fee was Twenty Shillings, and would have no less; and thereupon she gave him Twenty Shillings; and he then told her, that he had had Five Pounds for a less Matter; and was angry with her for standing with him.

Vernam's Ditto.

"The (fn. *) Examination of Christopher Vernam, taken the same Day: That about Christmas was Twelvemonth, he gave Mr. Harman Two and Twenty Shillings, upon the Delivery of a Petition to the Lord Treasurer for a Wardship, and, about May following, when a Day was assigned to attend the Composition, he gave Mr. Harman Four and Forty Shillings more."

Officers of the Court again.

And, to prove that, by Colour of these latter Instructions, Fees for Continuances of Liveries are raised from Ten Shillings to Twenty Shillings the Term, was read, "The said Answer of the said Officers of that Court, who say, That they have heard that the Sub ject paid to the Secretary (unto the Master's Use) half Fees for Tenders, and whole Fees for Continuances; and they, the said Surveyor, Attorney, and Auditor, do say, That the Master did declare his Intention not to debar the Surveyor of his Fee for Continuances; but said, because Continuances were Matters of Grace and Favour from the King's Majesty, that therefore, if the Subject would have them, they should pay for them.

Bright's Ditto.

"And the Examination of Jeffery Bright, taken the 21st of April 1624, who saith, That, since the last Instructions, the Fees of Continuances of Liveries have been raised from Forty Shillings per Annum unto Four Pounds, Eight Shillings; whereof Forty Shillings goes to the Lord Treasurer, and Four Shillings to Mr. Harman's Man.

Fabian's Ditto.

"And the Examination of Thomas Fabian, taken the same Day; who faith, That, since the last Instructions, the Fees of Continuances of Liveries have been raised Eleven Shillings every Term; which Fee the Lord Treasurer's Secretary receives; which is especially complained of by such as have Suits in Court.

Harman's Ditto.

"And the Examination of Nicholas Harman, taken the 22d of April 1624, That, since the last Instructions, the Lord Treasurer did take, upon every Continuance of Livery, Ten Shillings a Term, and no more."

Sundry Examinations read again, in further Proof.

And, to prove that, by the latter Instructions, the Master hath Power to make most Wardships concealed, was read, "The Answer upon Oath of the said Officers of the Court of Wards."

Touching the Stamp, was read, "The Examination of the said Nicholas Hermon, who saith, That, by the Direction of the Lord Treasurer, there was a Stamp made, and by his Lordship delivered to the said Examinate, with Power to sign therewith such ordinary Things, concerning the Business of the Court of Wards, as were to be signed by his Lordship; and faith, That he did move the Lord Treasurer to make the said Stamp; and the Reason was, for that the Suitors that followed those ordinary Businesses attended sometimes Eight, Nine, or Ten Days for Dispatch, which occasioned much Clamour and some Jealousy, that the said Examinate delayed them of Purpose; and therefore the said Examinate was desirous to give them better Dispatch. And saith, the Lord Treasurer did not distribute his Times, assigning any certain Days or Hours for the Dispatch of the Affairs of the Court of Wards, otherwise the said Stamp had not been made. And faith, That he did use the said Stamp sometimes in his Lordship's Absence, and sometimes in his Presence, when his Lordship was otherwise busied. And faith, That there was but one Stamp; but he could sign with it several Ways, according as he put Ink on the Stamp; sometimes with the Name Middelsex alone, and sometimes with the Addition of Curia Wardorum.

"And the aforesaid Examination of Jeffery Bright, That he hath seen Mr. Harman set the said Stamp to an Indenture for a Wardship of Body and Lands, and to many other Things.

"And the said Examination of Thomas Fabian, That Mr. Harman hath set that Stamp to sundry Writings, in the Absence of the Lord Treasurer.

"And the said Answers of the Officers of the Court of Wards, That Mr. Harman hath used the said Stamp, for stamping of Tenders, Continuances, Warrants to the Great Seal, Grants of Wardships, Leases, Indentures of Liveries, etc."

And there were shewed forth, and read by the Clerk, divers Petitions, of sundry Natures, stamped with the said Stamp.

Ld. Treasurer's Answer.

The Lord Treasurer answered unto this Charge: videlicet, "That he is not to be blamed for putting his Office into such Plight as it was before an Incroachment. As touching his Secretary's Fees, as he is not restrained, so nothing is allowed; and, if he hath exacted any Thing, his Lordship will be the severest Censurer of him; he never heard of any till now. That the Secretary to former Masters received whatsoever any Man gave voluntarily; so it was lawful for his.

"As touching the Fee for Continuances, why should he lose any Thing due for a Favour to the Subject? By this Means there be fewer Continuances; and so the King hath His Money the sooner, and the Party is free for the Subjects Suit the sooner.

"As for concealed Wardships within a Year, it is beneficial to the King; otherwise, within Three Years, the Ward might die, and the King lose the Wardship; neither hath the Master such Power alone therein by these new Instructions; he is only trusted with the Direction unto whom the concealed Wardship shall be granted; the Composition is left to the Council Board: But (fn. †) it is not shewed that he ever made one concealed Ward; they say this may be done, but do not shew what was done amiss." And his Lordship justified, "That these new Instructions were more beneficial to the King and Subject than the former, and not prejudicial (only it may be, is said), except the Fee upon Continuances; for as touching Petitions, if the Ward happen in a Vacation, the Petition must be delivered within a Month; if to the Clerk, haply he is out of Town; now they are to be delivered to the Master first, and he may direct the finding of the Office in the Interim; but it is of no Force till the Petition be afterwards entered by the Clerk, and Composition is made by all the Officers.

"Indeed the Officers yielded hardly to the new Instructions; because they had by the former shared the Master's Power and Authority amongst themselves."

His Lordship confessed, "That he yielded to have a Stamp made, by the Precedent of the Lord Burleigh's Stamp; which (he said) he could not prove but by Hear-say. And Stamps are used in the Subpœna Office, and the Outlawries; and that it is no more prejudicial to commit a Stamp to his Secretary, than it hath been heretofore to leave the Seal with the Clerk; neither is it shewn that his Stamp hath been to the Prejudice of any Man, the same Things that were stamped being to pass other Officers, either first or last."

"Then the Clerk (by the Lord Treasurer's Direction) read "The Examination of Richard Chamberleyne and Hugh Audley; That the same Things that were stamped, have or ought to pass other of the Officers Hands, either before or after they were stamped; that no Prejudice hath been, by their Knowledge, to any, either to the King or Subject, by reason of the said Stamp, unless the Subject hath received any Prejudice upon Petitions stamped for Judicial Acts of the Court; than the Suitors have had speedier Dispatch by the Stamp."

Serjeant Crewe's Reply.

These being read, Mr. Serjeant Crewe made a short Reply, touching the double Fee for Continuances; "That, in the Time of the Lord Treasurer Burleigh, was paid but Six Shillings Eight Pence for a Continuance, either to the Master, or to the Surveyor, which is now paid to both, and Ten Shillings unto each."

Unto which the Lord Treasurer answered in Effect as before.

Ld. Treasurer's further Answer.

And further said, "That he had much more to say, but durst not adventure to say any more, for that he was so far spent;" and desired, "That he might wait on their Lordships again To-morrow Morning, to satisfy them touching the Two Bribes of Five Hundred Pounds, and the Business of Dalison."

Before the Lord Treasurer was withdrawn, the Earl of Carlile remembered their Lordships, "That the Lord Treasurer, the other Day, had charged him with Three Thousand Pounds given him; whereas, about Twelve Months after the Lord Treasurer was made Master of the Wards, his Lordship paid the Earl of Carlile Three Thousand Pounds, in Part of Twenty Thousand Pounds given him by the King: And whereas the Lord Treasurer spake of the vast Expences of the Wardrobe in former Times; the Earl of Carlile said, That the Expences grew so great by reason of the extraordinary Charges then happening; as by the Queen of Bohemia's Marriage, which came to Threescore Thousand Pounds alone, for furnishing of divers of the King's Houses, for many rich Presents sent to Foreign States, for the King's Voyage into Scotland, and the like."

E. of Denbigh's Complaint.

And the Earl of Denbigh (now Master of the Wardrobe) shewed, "That he cannot get any Allowance for the Extraordinaries of that Office from the Lord Treasurer."

Ld. Treasurer's Answer.

Whereunto his Lordship answered, "That the King referred unto him the Earl of Denbigh's Demands of the Extraordinaries (wherein his Lordship was unwilling to meddle); and he could not conceive that they could amount unto the Sum demanded. And as touching the Earl of Carlile, if he said that he had given him that Three Thousand Pounds, he did his Lordship Wrong, for he had Warrant from His Majesty to pay it."

Charges the King's Counsel with Disingenuity.

And then the Lord Treasurer desired, he might be heard, to clear some Words that might pass from him this Day: "Where it is reported that his Lordship should say, That he had unchristian Dealing, he meant it not by their Lordships, whose Dealing he acknowledged to be to him both just and Honourable; but he meant it by the King's Counsel, who have dealt so unchristianly with him, as to make White Black, and Black White; and humbly desired, That this his Acknowledgement of the Justness of the House might be accepted of him, and to be understood only of the King's Counsel; and said further, That he had Precedents that he ought not to answer in this Place (at the Bar), and that he ought to have Counsel; and prayed that the next may not suffer by his Example; and again desired to appear again To-morrow, to make his further Answer."

The Lord Treasurer being withdrawn; the House Agreed, That he should appear here again To-morrow, at Nine of the Clock. And Mr. Maxewell (the Gentleman Usher) warned him to appear accordingly.

They are cleared by the House.

The Lord Keeper cleared the Proceedings of the King's Counsel in their several Charges against the Lord Treasurer; and the House gave them Thanks for their fair Carriage therein.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in crastinum, videlicet, diem Martis, 12m diem Maii, hora nona, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Origin. consider of.
Origin. that the.
Deest in Origin.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. Petition.