House of Lords Journal Volume 7
19 February 1645

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 7: 19 February 1645', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 7: 1644 (1767-1830), pp. 210-217. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33238 Date accessed: 21 October 2014.


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Contents

DIE Mercurii, 19 die Februarii.
Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, with Papers concerning the Propositions; and for Leave to employ the last Three Days of the Treaty about such as they shall find most necessary. Committee to consider of it. Message from the H. C. with Ordinances, &c. Answer. Answer to the Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, sent to the H. C. Captain Stone's Appearance respited. Answer from the H. C. Message to them, that the Lords sit P. M. Parliament's Commissioners have answered the King's Commissioners concerning the Jurisdiction, &c. of the Commissioners for procuring the Peace. Parliament's Commissioners insist that the Time for the Militia shall be unlimited. King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament of Scotland is to interfere in appointing Commissioners to manage the Militia here. Commissioners for the Militia chosen by the Parliament of One Kingdom, will not be excepted against by the other. King's Commissioners desire to see the Treaty for settling Berwick, &c. King's Commissioners are desired to explain their Proposition, about the Power to be given the Commissioners for preserving Peace. Their Explanation of it. King's Commissioners desire to know, whether the Commissioners of either Kingdom are to have a Negative Voice. Commissioners of each Kingdom to have a negative Voice; and, in doubtful Cases, to have Recourse to their respective Parliaments. King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament's Commissioners have Power to agree to a Limitation of Time for the Militia. Parliament's Commissioners insist that the Time shall be unlimited. King's Commissioners desire a full Answer, concerning what Authority the Scots are to have in settling the Forces of this Kingdom; and concerning the Jurisdiction, &c. of the Commissioners for preserving the Peace. Forces by Sea and Land to be settled by the Parliament of each Kingdom respectively. Parliament's Commissioners desire to know what Instructions the King's have, to consent to the Militia. They have no particular Instructions to guide them in it. Their Answer to the Propositions about the Militia. Parliament's Commissioners desire a full Answer to their Propositions about the Militia, and Commissioners for both Kingdoms. They desire the King's to shew their Instructions, whether they are authorized to consent to the Time for the Militia being unlimited. King's Commissioners desire to know whether the Parliament's have Power to agree to the Time being limited. King's Commissioners Reasons for their several Questions relative to the Jurisdiction of the Commissioners for preserving the Peace, and for the Limitation of the Time for the Militia. Order for Ordnance for Portsmouth Garrison. Ordinance to prevent fraudulent Entries of exciseable Commodities, and authorizing the Commissioners of Excise to punish Offenders against the Ordinance for an Excise on Spirits; Wine, &c. Additional Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty, concerning Ireland. Broughton & al. Committees for Stafford, Petition, to excuse Capt. Stone's immediate Appearance. Commissioners for the Treaty to treat the last Three Days on such Propositions as they shall find most necessary. Post meridiem. Message from the H. C. with an Instruction to the Commissioners for the Treaty. Answer. Committee to consider of it. Message to the H. C. with it, and an Amendment. Deputy Lieutenant for Mountgomery. Answer from the H.C. Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty, about limiting the Time for the Militia. Adjourn. Footnotes

DIE Mercurii, 19 die Februarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Price.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

L. General.
Comes Kent.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Nottingham.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Manchester.
Ds. North.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Willoughby.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Howard.

Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, with Papers concerning the Propositions; and for Leave to employ the last Three Days of the Treaty about such as they shall find most necessary.

The Speaker acquainted the House, "That he hath received a Packet from the Commissioners at Uxbridge wherein was a Letter, and divers other Papers;" which were read, as followeth:

"For the Right Honourable the Speaker of the House of Peers pro Tempore.

"My Lord,

"We send you up the Papers that passed between the King's Commissioners and us Yesterday, being the last Day for the Militia. There is the One and Twentieth Paper, which we received not until this Day in the Afternoon, though it bears Date of the Day before, in regard it was so late, Twelve of the Clock at Night, when we delivered in our last Paper; and both Sides, being weary, were willing to part, and the Answer to be sent and received afterwards, which came not till now, and puts a fair Gloss upon their Denial, and a great Charge upon our Desires, and will be much for our Disadvantage if it remain with us unanswered: It is therefore conceived by all of us, and is likewise the Opinion of the Commissioners of Scotland, that it will not be inconvenient for the Service, if you please to give us Liberty to employ the last Three Days upon any of the Propositions appointed to be treated on in the Twenty Days, as we shall find it to be most necessary for the Public Good, that thereby we may have Power to answer this Paper, or any other which shall be given us, upon those Propositions, so near the Close of the Time, that it cannot be replied unto according to Our First Instructions of Three Days and Three Days. We humbly desire to know your Pleasure in it with what Speed may be, and what other Directions you will please to give us; and so we rest

"Your Lordship's Humble and faithful Servants.

Uxbridge, Feb. 18, 1644.

"Northumb.
Pembrooke & Mont.
Salisbury.
B. Denbigh."

Committee to consider of it.

Ordered; and referred to the Earl of Salisbury, Earl of Manchester, Lord Wharton, and the Lord North, to consider what Power is fit to be given to the Commissioners upon this Letter, and report the same to this House.

Then (fn. *) the other Papers were read, concerning the Militia. (Here enter them.)

Message from the H. C. with Ordinances, &c.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Walter Longe Esquire; which consisted of these Particulars, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence:

1. An Order to be sent to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, concerning the Business of Ireland, &c.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

2. An Ordinance (fn. †) to send Arms to Portsmouth. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

3. An Ordinance concerning the better regulating of the Excise. (Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to all the Particulars now brought.

Answer to the Letter from the Commissioners for the Treaty, sent to the H. C.

The Earl of Salisbury reported what the Committee had prepared to send to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, in Answer to their Letter received this Day.

The Order was read, and approved of, and Ordered to be sent down to the House of Commons, to desire their Concurrence therein; which accordingly was done, by Doctor Aylett and Doctor Heath.

Captain Stone's Appearance respited.

Upon reading the Petition of Edward Broughton, John Swynton, Will. Foxall, John Symcox, of the Committee of the County of Stafford: It is Ordered, That for the Reasons therein expressed, that Captain Henry Stone's Appearance before this House shall be respited until Thirty Days from the Date hereof.

Answer from the H. C.

Doctor Heath and Doctor Aylett return with this Answer:

That the House of Commons do agree in the Order sent down to them, concerning the Commissioners that treat at Uxbridge. (Here enter it.)

Message to them, that the Lords sit P. M.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

To let them know, that this House resolves to sit this Afternoon, at Three of the Clock.

Parliament's Commissioners have answered the King's Commissioners concerning the Jurisdiction, &c. of the Commissioners for procuring the Peace.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"1. We conceive that there is a full Answer already given by us in several Papers of the 14th of this Instant, to the former Parts of your Paper delivered in on the 15th Day; and to the latter Part, what Jurisdiction the Commissioners shall have, who may determine all Differences that shall be by the Breach of the Articles of Peace, and by what Law or Rule they shall proceed to hear and determine the same, is clearly set down in our further Answer, of the 15th of this Instant, to your Second Paper delivered to us the Day before.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."

Parliament's Commissioners insist that the Time for the Militia shall be unlimited.

"17 Februarii.

"2. In Answer to your Sixth Paper, of the 15th of this Instant, concerning the Limitation of Time in the settling of the Militia; we do insist that the Time be unlimited, according to our former Demands.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament of Scotland is to interfere in appointing Commissioners to manage the Militia here.

"17 Februarii, 1644.

"3. We desire to know, whether, by the Proposition for settling the Forces in Commissioners to be nominated by both Houses of Parliament, such as both Kingdoms may conside in, your Lordships do intend that the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland shall approve or except against the Commissioners to be nominated for the Kingdom of England, both at present, and from Time to Time, as the Commissioners shall die, or be removed or altered.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r.

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Commissioners for the Militia chosen by the Parliament of One Kingdom, will not be excepted against by the other.

"17 Februarii, 1644.

"4. We conceive it to be plain, by the Proposition itself, that the Commissioners of both Kingdoms are respectively to be nominated by the Parliaments of either Kingdoms and neither Parliament hath Power to except against, or approve, the Persons chosen by the other: And now are confident there will be no Cause of Exception, but who are chosen by either will be such as both may confide in.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to see the Treaty for settling Berwick, &c.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"5. In the Twelfth Proposition, your Lordships desire an Act to be passed, for Confirmation of the late Treaty for the settling of the Garrison of Berwicke, of the 29th of November, 1643; which, relating to the Business of the Militia, we hold it necessary to see before we can make our full Answer upon the whole, and desire it accordingly of your Lordships.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

"17 Februarii, 1644.

"6. As for what concerns the Act for Confirmation of our late Treaty, and for settling the Garrison of Berwicke; it is not now to be treated upon, but is reserved to its proper Time.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners are desired to explain their Proposition, about the Power to be given the Commissioners for preserving Peace.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"7. We desire to know, whether, by the joint Power mentioned in your Lordships Propositions to be given to the Commissioners for both Kingdoms, to preserve the Peace between the Kingdoms and the King, and every One of them, your Lordships do intend any other than Military Power for suppressing Forces only, which is expressed after in a distinct Clause by itself; and, if your Lordships do intend any further Power, that you would declare the same in Certainty and Particular.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Their Explanation of it.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"8. We conceive the Power of the Commissioners, mentioned in the Seventeenth Proposition, is there fully expressed, to preserve the Peace betwixt the Kingdoms, to prevent the Violation of it, or any Troubles arising in the Kingdoms by Breach of the Articles; and to hear and determine all Differences which may occasion the same, according to the Treaty; and to raise Forces, to resist Foreign Invasion, and suppress intestine Insurrections, as is more at large set down in the Proposition, unto which we refer your Lordships.

"By Command of the Commissioners of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to know, whether the Commissioners of either Kingdom are to have a Negative Voice.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"9. We desire to know, whether, the Commissioners of both Kingdoms meeting as a joint Committee, the Commissioners of each Kingdom shall have a Negative Voice, so as nothing can be done without their joint Consent, in Matters of joint Concernment; and how, and by whom, it shall be decided what are Causes of joint Concernment to both Kingdoms.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Commissioners of each Kingdom to have a negative Voice; and, in doubtful Cases, to have Recourse to their respective Parliaments.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"10. In all Matters of joint Concernment, the Commissioners for both Kingdoms are to act jointly; and when they shall meet as a joint Committee, upon such Matters of joint Concernment, the Commissioners of each Kingdom are to have a Negative Voice; and, in doubtful Causes, not expressed in the Seventeenth Proposition to be of joint Concernment, where the Commissioners cannot agree whether or no they be of joint Concernment, they are to represent them to the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, respectively, to be by them determined, if they be sitting; and, in the Intervals of the Parliament, if the Causes be such as cannot without Prejudice to both or either Kingdoms admit of Delay, we conceive the Commissioners of each Kingdom are to act severally, and to be accountable for it to the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, respectively, at their next Sitting.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"Jo. Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to know, if the Parliament's Commissioners have Power to agree to a Limitation of Time for the Militia.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"11. After so long Debate between us, concerning the Limitation of Time in the settling of the Militia (in which we conceive your Lordships had been satisfied, that, as it is no Way necessary for the Security of the Observation and Performance of the present Agreement that the Time should be unlimited, so, in respect of other Considerations, it may be very mischievous that it should be unlimited), we had great Reason to desire to know, whether your Lordships had any Power, by your Instructions, to consent to a Limitation of Time; and are sorry that your Lordships will not give us an Answer to that Question, that thereupon we might have endeavoured to have given your Lordships other Satisfaction than, by not knowing your Power therein, we are enabled to do.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners insist that the Time shall be unlimited.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"12. We conceive, that after so long Debates between us, that your Lordships would have been satisfied that it was most fit concerning the settling of the Militia for the Time to be unlimited, as we have formerly desired, and which by our Instructions we are to insist upon.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r.

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire a full Answer, concerning what Authority the Scots are to have in settling the Forces of this Kingdom; and concerning the Jurisdiction, &c. of the Commissioners for preserving the Peace.

17 Febr. 1644.

"13. We had great Reason to desire a perfect and full Answer from your Lordships to our First and Second Papers delivered by us to your Lordships on the 15th of February; and we desire your Lordships to consider how difficult a Thing it is for us to give your Lordships a satisfactory Answer to your Propositions, as they relate to either or both Kingdoms; or to the Power of the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, as they are to be a joint Committee, to hear and determine all Differences according to Instructions from both Houses of the Parliament of England, or the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, before your Lordships are pleased to inform us, whether you intend that the Commissioners of Scotland shall have any Power or Authority in the settling of all Forces by Sea and Land in this Kingdom, and what Authority they shall have; and whether the Advice, Instructions, or Orders, of the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, shall have any Influence upon the Affairs of this Kingdom, or the Commissioners to be named according to these Propositions, otherwise than as the said Advice, Instructions, or Orders, shall be approved and confirmed by the Two Houses of the Parliament of England; and what Jurisdiction you intend the Commissioners shall have, who are to determine all Differences that may occasion the Breach of the Articles of the Peace, and by what Law or Rule they shall proceed, try, and judge, in the hearing and determining the same; in all which Particulars, we are very sorry that we can receive no Answers from your Lordships, for Want whereof, we may fail in giving your Lordships satisfactory Answers to your Propositions, as otherwise we might be enabled to do.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Forces by Sea and Land to be settled by the Parliament of each Kingdom respectively.

"17 Februarii, 1644.

"14. It is clearly expressed, in our Propositions delivered to your Lordships, that all Forces by Sea and Land, in this Kingdom, are to be settled by the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and in the Kingdom of Scotland by the Estates of the Parliament there; and we conceive that the Advice, Instructions, or Orders, of either Kingdom, have no Influence upon the Affairs of the other, but such as is, and shall be, mutually agreed upon by the Two Houses of the Parliament of England, and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland: And for the Jurisdiction of the Commissioners, and by what Law or Rule they shall proceed, we have given your Lordships a full and clear Answer thereunto, in our Fifth Paper of the 15th of February.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Jo. Thurloe.
Jo. Cheislie."

Parliament's Commissioners desire to know what Instructions the King's have, to consent to the Militia.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"15. We desire a full and clear Answer to what we have delivered to your Lordships concerning the Militia; and to know, whether your Lordships be limited by any Instructions or Directions what to grant or deny in the same; and that we may have a Sight of such Instructions or Directions.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheislie."

They have no particular Instructions to guide them in it.

"17 Februarii, 1644.

"16. We do herewith deliver to your Lordships such a full and clear Answer to your Propositions concerning the Militia, as we hope will give your Lordships Satisfaction, being such as, upon the Conference and Information we have received from your Lordships, seems to us to be most reasonable.

"It appeareth by our Commission, whereof your Lordships have a Copy, that it hath not any Reference to any Instructions. It is true, that, as we have, according to our Duty, from Time to Time acquainted His Majesty with our Proceedings, so, in some particular Cases, we have desired to be assisted with His Majesty's Opinion. But what Answer we have therein received from His Majesty, we conceive is not proper for us to communicate to your Lordships; nor have we any Warrant so to do.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Their Answer to the Propositions about the Militia.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"17. We had no Purpose, in our Answer delivered by us to your Lordships on the Sixth Day of February, to divide our Answers concerning the Militia of the Two Kingdoms otherwise than in Point of Time, and till we might receive Satisfaction from your Lordships concerning the Powers to be given to the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, and the other Particulars mentioned in our Papers since delivered to your Lordships, wherein we are not as yet satisfied by any Papers delivered by your Lordships to us.

"Our further Answer to those Propositions concerning the Militia is, that we are willing, and do agree, that the like Course shall be taken and observed touching the Militia of the Kingdom of Scotland as is offered in our said Paper of the Sixth of February, and as shall be hereafter agreed upon for the Kingdom of England, which we conceive to be a full Security for the Performance and Observation of all Articles which shall be agreed upon between us in order to a blessed Peace, which we are so desirous may be punctually and exactly observed, that we are willing that His Majesty be desired to take a most solemn strict Oath for the full Observation thereof; and likewise that all Persons of any immediate Trust, by Office or Attendance on His Majesty, and any other whom you shall think fit, shall take such Oath for the due Observance of the same, with such reasonable Penalties, as shall be proposed by your Lordships, and agreed to by us, in which Belief we shall not differ with your Lordships, being willing that whosoever shall in the least Degree infringe the Agreement which shall be made between us may be looked upon and accounted as most pernicious Enemies to King and Kingdoms; and if it shall be thought necessary to make any additional Settlement of the Militia, with a general Reference to the Good of the Kingdoms respectively, we desire the same may be done after the Peace established by the joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses of the Parliament of England, and of His Majesty and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, respectively: And as we shall desire and endeavour to remove all Occasions that may interrupt the Peace and Tranquility of that Kingdom, and a perfect Amity with them, and shall not desire any Change of, or to intermeddle with, their Laws or Government, or give them cause to apprehend any Disturbance or Violation of them from this Kingdom, so we are obliged, with all Tenderness, to preserve the Honour, Dignity, and Constitution, of this Realm; and therefore (as we are yet satisfied) we cannot consent that any Persons authorized by the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, or any Advice from thence, shall have any Influence upon the Militia of this Kingdom, or further interpose in the Affairs of this Kingdom than is already provided in the Act of Pacification; and we offer to your Lordships Consideration, whether, unless there could be a Union of the Laws of both Kingdoms, such a Mixture of Power as is now proposed, and the Influence thereof both upon Martial and Civil Affairs, may not prove very inconvenient and prejudicial to both Kingdoms, and give Cause of Jealousies to each other, to the Disturbance of that mutual Amity so much desired: But, if this intermingling of Power in both Kingdoms shall be further insisted on by your Lordships, we propound that the same may be settled as (after a Peace established) shall be agreed by the joint Consent of His Majesty and both Houses of the Parliament of England, and of His Majesty and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland: And if your Lordships shall insist on any Thing further for necessary Security, we shall apply ourselves to the Consideration thereof, if we shall have further Time so to do, according to our Desires grounded upon His Majesty's Letter.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Parliament's Commissioners desire a full Answer to their Propositions about the Militia, and Commissioners for both Kingdoms.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"18. We do conceive that we have, in our former Papers, punctually satisfied your Lordships in all you desired to know concerning the Powers of the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, and the other Particulars mentioned by your Lordships; and what your Lordships now offer concerning the Militia of the Kingdom of Scotland, that the like Course shall be taken in it as is expressed in your Lordships Paper of the Sixth of February to be observed for the Militia of this Kingdom. Your Lordships may remember, that, in our Answer to that Paper, we told your Lordships, it was differing from what we had proposed, and unsatisfactory to our just and necessary Desires for securing the Peace of the Kingdoms; and it cannot be expected, that what was so then for the Kingdom of England, should now be thought other for the Kingdom of Scotland; and, though both Kingdoms be now united in the same Cause, and labouring under the same Dangers, and therefore necessitated to a mutual and reciprocal Assistance of each other, had proposed a joint Remedy and Security by that Commission desired in our Seventeenth Proposition: We find your Lordships say, that (as yet you are satisfied) you cannot consent unto it: To which we answer, That we believed we had given your Lordships such convincing Reasons as might have satisfied you; and we doubt not but they may, if you will recollect your Memories concerning them, and rightly weigh them. This being the last Day we are to treat upon this Subject, it cannot be expected, and as we conceive it is altogether needless, to use any more Arguments. We do therefore desire your Lordships will be pleased now at the last to give us your full and positive Answer to our Demands, as we have often already pressed your Lordships; and whereas your Lordships do propound, that, if we shall further insist upon the uniting of the Powers of both Kingdoms, it may be done after the Peace established; we desire your Lordships to consider, that it is demanded by us in order to a Peace, and a chief and most necessary Means for the attaining and Establishment of it.

"And we further observe, that your Lordships have given us no Answer at all to our Eleventh Proposition, which we do likewise insist upon, and desire your Answer.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe.
Jo. Cheisly.
John Thurloe Secretary.
Daniel Earle Secretary.

They desire the King's to shew their Instructions, whether they are authorized to consent to the Time for the Militia being unlimited.

"19. We again desire of your Lordships, to know whether you be limited, by any Instructions or Directions, what to grant or deny unto us concerning the Militia, and that we may have a Sight of such Instructions or Directions; and which we conceive your Lordships in Justice and Reason cannot deny; seeing, by your Papers and Debates, you insisted that it was just and reasonable for us to let you know whether we had any Power, by our Instructions, to consent to a Limitation of Time, which we did accordingly; and your Lordships Seventh Paper this Day delivered gives no Answer or Satisfaction to our former Demand herein.

"By Command of the Commissioners for the Parliaments of both Kingdoms.

"Exam'r,

"Daniel Earle.
Jo. Cheisly."

King's Commissioners desire to know whether the Parliament's have Power to agree to the Time being limited.

"17 Feb. 1644.

"20. We conceive it was just and reasonable for us to demand of your Lordships, whether you had Power, by your Instructions, to consent to a Limitation of Time concerning the Militia, because the Time is left indefinite, and not expressed in the Propositions, and your Lordships Commission, which gives you Power to treat relating to Instructions; they are thereby Part of your Power: And yet your Lordships to that our Demand have given no other Answer, than that, by your Lordships Instructions, you were to insist to have the Time unlimited; but have not answered whether you had Power to consent to a Limitation of Time; and we desire your Lordships to remember, that formerly, upon our Desire to see your Instructions, that thereby we may see what Power was granted to you, by your Paper of the last of January your Lordships did answer, it was that for which you had no Warrant: And it appearing to your Lordships that our Commission hath no Reference to Instructions, we conceive that your Lordships cannot expect any other Answer than we have given already to your Lordships Demand touching any Instructions or Directions to us, what to deny or consent to grant in the Militia; assuring your Lordships, that we shall not deny, but very willingly consent to grant, whatsoever shall be therein requisite for a full Security for observing the Articles of the Treaty, or otherwise agreeable to Justice or Reason.

"By Command of His Majesty's Commissioners.

"Wm. Dugdale.
Nic. Oudart."

King's Commissioners Reasons for their several Questions relative to the Jurisdiction of the Commissioners for preserving the Peace, and for the Limitation of the Time for the Militia.

"17 Febr. 1644.

"21. If your Lordships had punctually, or in any Degree, satisfied us in what we desired to know concerning the Powers of the Commissioners of both Kingdoms, and the other Particulars mentioned by us, we had not troubled your Lordships with so many Questions; to most of which we could receive no other Answers, than the referring us to the Propositions themselves upon which we grounded our Questions: And we conceive that your Lordships Propositions upon the Militia (upon which you still insist) have in Truth appeared, upon Debate, to be most unreasonable in many Particulars, as that the Persons to be intrusted with the Militia should be nominated only by the Two Houses, and that His Majesty, who is equally to be secured that the Peace shall not be broken, should name none; that the Power given to these Commissioners shall be framed and altered, as Occasion serves, by the Two Houses only; and that His Majesty, who is so much concerned therein, shall have no Negative Voice as to such Powers, but is absolutely excluded; and that the Time should be unlimited; so that His Majesty, for Himself and His Posterity, should for ever part with their peculiar Regal Power, of being able to resist their Enemies, or protect their good Subjects, and with that undoubted and never-denied Right of the Crown, to make War and Peace; and in no Time to come, His Majesty or His Posterity should have Power to assist their Allies with any Supplies of Men, though Voluntiers, or ever more to have any Jurisdiction over their own Navy or Fleet at Sea, and so consequently must lose all Estimation and Confidence with Foreign Princes: And many other Expressions in the said Propositions do either signify what we find your Lordships do not expect or intend, or at least are so doubtful that the clear Sense thereof is not evident to all Understandings; as, by the literal Sense of your Propositions, neither the Sheriffs of Counties, or Justices of Peace, and other legal Ministers, may raise Forces by the Posse Comitatus, or otherwise, to suppress Riots, or remove forcible Entries, or to perform the other like necessary Duties of their Places, without being liable to the Interpretation of the Commissioners for the Militia, that such Forces are raised, or Actions done, for the Disturbance of the Public Peace; as likewise all Civil Actions and Differences may be comprehended within these Propositions, to be tried before the said Commissioners; neither of which, we believe, your Lordships intend should be; and therefore we have, in our Answers, proposed what we thought would be agreeable to the Matter and End of those Propositions; that is, a reasonable and full Security for the Observation of the Articles of the Treaty, which, according to what we have offered, cannot be broken on either Part, without evident Prejudice and Danger of that Part which shall endeavour the breaking thereof: And that the Memory of these unhappy Distractions may be forgotten as soon as may, that the Time for this Settlement may be limited to Three Years, which, by the Blessing of God, will be sufficient to beget a good Understanding between His Majesty and all His People; and that the Fifteenth Proposition, and all the other Parts of your Lordships Propositions, being not all necessary to the present Union and Reconciliation, may be deferred till after the Peace established to be settled by His Majesty and the Two Houses of Parliament in England, and His Majesty and the Estates of the Parliament in Scotland, respectively; but, if your Lordships shall not think this Way of Nomination of Persons to be Commissioners, or the other proposed likewise by us in our Paper of the 6th of February, for the Agreement of the Commissioners between your Lordships and us, to be equal, we shall gladly receive any more equal Way from your Lordships (since it is apparent that that already proposed by your Lordships (and which you insisted upon in Terminis) is not fit to be consented to for the Quiet and Peace of the Kingdoms); presuming that you will think the Security ought to be mutual, as the Fears and Jealousies are mutual; and we are most confident, that His Majesty so much desires to give all reasonable, and fit Security on His Part, that the Agreement and Peace to be now made shall be inviolably observed, that, as He will name no Man for this great Trust against whom there can be just Exception (if the Persons are named equally between Him and you), so, if the whole Nomination were left to Him, He would pitch only upon such as both Kingdoms might have great Cause to confide in, and, we believe, might give full Satisfaction to your Lordships; and therefore we hope your Lordships will believe, that the Reason we consent not to your Propositions is, because we conceive them destructive to the Ends for which they are proposed, Justice, Peace, and Amity; and not that (fn. *) we deny to consent to any reasonable Security for Observance of the Agreement to be made, of which we will always be most tender with regard to all Persons concerned.

"By Command of His-Majesty's Commissioners.

"Exam'r,

"John Thurloe Secretary.
Wm. Dugdale.
Daniel Earle Secretary.
Nic. Oudart."

Order for Ordnance for Portsmouth Garrison.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That Two Hundred Snaphance Muskets, and Arms and Furniture for Fifty Horsemen, be provided and furnished, for the Service of the Garrison of Portsmouth, upon the Credit of the Monies that come in at Habberdashers Hall, to be paid next after the Assignments now lying upon those Monies."

Ordinance to prevent fraudulent Entries of exciseable Commodities, and authorizing the Commissioners of Excise to punish Offenders against the Ordinance for an Excise on Spirits; Wine, &c.

"Whereas, by the Thirteenth Article in the Ordinance of the 11th of September, 1643, the Merchants, Importers, Brewers of Beer and Ale, and Distillers of Aqua Vitæ and Strong Waters, and others chargeable by the said Ordinance with the Excise for any the Commodities in the Schedule of the said Ordinance mentioned, in case of not making due Entry according to that and the precedent Article, are liable to the Penalties therein expressed; and whereas the Buyers of divers exciseable Commodities, as well in Cases of Bills of Sufferance as in other Cases, being not made expressly liable to the said Penalties, have took Encouragement not only to return short Entries, but less than the full Value of the Goods for which Sufferance hath been granted; and divers Merchants and others have rummaged, removed, and disposed of, Wines, Tobaccos, and sundry other exciseable Commodities, without Ticket, pretending them not to be sold, and that the Rummage, Removal, or Disposal, renders them not forfeitable; and whereas it is a constant Practice of divers Merchants, Importers, and others, to remove from the Ships, and other Vessels, wherein such Goods are first imported, into other Ships, Hoys, Barques, Lighters, or other Vessels, all Sorts of exciseable Goods, Merchandizes, Wares, and Commodities whatsoever, carrying them beyond the Seas, to the Coasts, Port Towns, Creeks, or other Bye-places whatsoever, without making Entry thereof at the Excise-office, thereby endeavouring to frustrate the State of the Duty of Excise, upon Pretence that, so long as Goods are Water-borne, they are not liable to Seizure or Forfeiture; as also, upon Tickets granted from the Office, fraudulently to use One Merchant's Name, of whom they pretend the Goods to be bought, instead of the Importer or true Owner thereof, under whose Hand they bring no true Note or Certificate to signify the Truth; which several Frauds, though apparently practised, yet are so cunningly carried on, that they cannot in all Cases be proved by Two Witnesses: Now the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, taking Notice how People of all Degrees and Qualities are apt to dispute and elude the said Ordinance, which doth much prejudice and interrupt that necessary Service; for Prevention of these and the like fraudulent and indirect Practices hereafter, the said Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled do hereby Ordain and Declare, That the Commissioners of Excise, and their Deputies, had, by the true Intent and Meaning of the said Ordinance of the 11th of September, 1643, and hereby shall have, absolute Power and Authority to punish all such and other Offenders and Offences against the said Ordinance, or any other Ordinances touching the Excise (not otherwise in them or any of them provided for), in the same Manner, by the same Penalties, and with the same Forfeitures, as is in the said Thirteenth Article expressed: And it is further Ordained and Established, by Authority aforesaid, That, from and after the last of March next, the Rummage, Removal, or Disposal, of Wines, Tobaccos, or other exciseable Foreign Commodities, whereof the Excise hath not been formerly paid, from or to any Cellar, Vault, Ware-house, Storehouse, or other Place whatsoever, or the Landing of any such Goods out of any Ship or Vessel (except within his or their own House or Houses) without Warrant, Ticket, or Officer, in that Behalf first procured, is Cause of the same Forfeiture as in the Case of Sale, and for Delivery from the Merchant or Importer upon Sale; and that, for a short Payment, or short Entry of Number, Price, or Value, of any exciseable Commodities, by the Buyer, Consumptioner, Planter, Maker, or other Trader or Dealer of or in any of the Commodities that now are, or hereafter shall be, exciseable, all and every such Buyer and other Persons shall be liable to the same Fines, Penalties, and Forfeitures, as by the said Thirteenth Article are imposed upon the Merchant or Persons therein mentioned, upon Proof of One or more Witnesses, or the Party upon Oath, or Confession, and in the same Manner to be levied, recovered, and disposed of, except the same be otherwise particularly provided for: And it is hereby further Ordained, That as well the Commissioners of Excise, their Deputies and Officers, as all and every other Person and Persons which shall do any Thing in Execution or Performance of this present Ordinance, shall be therein from Time to Time protected and saved harmless, by the Power and Authority of both Houses of Parliament."

Additional Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty, concerning Ireland.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That their Committee appointed to treat at Uxbridge be hereby authorized and required, in Pursuance of the Propositions concerning Ireland, to demand of the Commissioners sent from His Majesty, whether any Peace or Cessation of Arms in Ireland be consented unto by the King, and for what Time; and whether any Commission be now on Foot, or other Authority given by His Majesty, for that Purpose; and to desire that no Cessation of Arms or Peace in Ireland may be concluded or treated on, without Consent of both Houses of Parliament."

Broughton & al. Committees for Stafford, Petition, to excuse Capt. Stone's immediate Appearance.

"To the Right Honourable House of Peers.

"The humble Petition of Edward Broughton, John Swinfen, William Foxall, John Symcox, of the Committee of Stafford;

"Sheweth,

"That, upon Articles exhibited by the Earl of Denbigh to this Honourable House, against your Petitioners, and Captain Henry Stone now Governor of Stafford, your Petitioners and the said Captain were sent for up, to appear in the Painted Chamber, before a Committee of Lords and Commons, January 3d.

"That your Petitioners did appear according to the said Order: Captain Stone only appeared not, in regard he could not safely leave the Charge of the Garrison of Stafford, committed to him by the Committtee of both Kingdoms.

"That your Petitioners now hear this Honourable House hath since sent for Captain Stone, by a Second Order, to answer his Absence contrary to the former Order.

"That, when your Petitioners did appear, there was no Committee appointed by the Commons, nor any Thing said to your Petitioners; and if Captain Stone should now be taken out of Stafford, it would much endanger the Loss of that Garrison and (fn. *) County, in regard Prince Maurice is quartered at Wellington, within Twelve Miles of Stafford, and most of the Garrison Soldiers are sent to the Assistance of Sir William Brereton; and those that are left for the Defence of the Garrison are Inhabitants, and such others as do much depend upon Captain Stone.

"Your Petitioners, therefore, humbly pray, that this Honourable House will take the Premises into Consideration; and, in respect of the present Condition of the County of Stafford, that your Honours will please to pardon the Absence of Captain Stone, until that County may better spare him, or the Proceedings against him and your Petitioners more require his Personal Attendance here.

"And your Petitioners shall ever pray, &c.

"John Swinfen."

Commissioners for the Treaty to treat the last Three Days on such Propositions as they shall find most necessary.

"Whereas, by former Instructions, the Commissioners were appointed (amongst other Things) to treat upon the Propositions concerning Religion, Militia, and Ireland, Three Days apiece, alternis vicibus, during the Space of Twenty Days: It is now Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the Commissioners for the Parliament of England, with the Commissioners for the Kingdom of Scotland, or any Ten or more of them, whereof some of either House of the Parliament of England and some of the Commissioners of the Kingdom of Scotland to be present, shall have Power and Liberty to treat with the Persons sent by His Majesty, during the Three last Days of the said Twenty Days, upon all or any of the said Three Propositions, as they shall think fit for the Public Good, notwithstanding the before-mentioned former Instructions of treating upon those Three forementioned Propositions Three Days apiece alternis vicibus."

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS, by Dr. Smyth.

Ds. Grey de Warke, Speaker.

L. Admiral.
L. General.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Rutland.
Comes Stamford.
Comes Kent.
Comes Nottingham.
Ds. North.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Bruce.
Ds. Willoughby.

Message from the H. C. with an Instruction to the Commissioners for the Treaty.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir (fn. *) Gilb't Gherrard Baronet:

To let their Lordships know, that they have considered of an Instruction to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, wherein they desire their Lordships Concurrence.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House will take this Message into Consideration, and send an Answer, by Messengers of their own.

Th House took the said Instruction into Consideration, and committed it to the Consideration of these Lords following, who are presently to meet, and make their Report:

Committee to consider of it.

L. Admiral.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Sarum.
Ds. North.
Ds. Wharton.

The Lord Wharton reported, "That the said Committee had considered of the Instruction, and think it fit to pass, with an Amendment and Alteration;" which being read, this House agreed thereunto, with the said Alterations.

Message to the H. C. with it, and an Amendment.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath:

To let them know, that this House agrees to the Instruction to be sent to the Commissioners at Uxbridge, with an Alteration, wherein their Concurrence is desired.

Deputy Lieutenant for Mountgomery.

Ordered, That this House recommends to the Lord General, Lord Lieutenant for the County of Mountgomery, George Devereux, to be a Deputy Lieutenant for that County; and the Concurrence of the House of Commons to be desired herein, by the next Message.

Answer from the H.C.

Dr. Aylett and Dr. Heath return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

That they agree to the Instruction, with the Alteration. (Here enter it.)

Instructions to the Commissioners for the Treaty, about limiting the Time for the Militia.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the Commissioners of both Houses shall have Power to confer with the Scotts Commissioners; and, upon Conference had with them, shall have Liberty to limit the Power of the Militia in Commissioners, according to the Seventeenth Proposition, to continue for Three Years after the Peace shall be settled in the Three Kingdoms of Engl. Scotland, and Ireland, and shall be so declared by the King and both Houses of the Parliament of England, and the King and Estates of the Parliament of Scotland; or for Seven Years at least from the Time of the passing of the Act for the Militia; and that, after the Expiration of such Term as shall be agreed upon, the Militia of the Kingdoms shall be settled by His Majesty in such Manner as shall be advised by both Houses of the Parliament of Engl. and the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland respectively; and the Commissioners shall have Liberty to propound both or either of these Limitations to the Commissioners sent by the King."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9a cras.

Footnotes

* Origin. they.
Origin. to be.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. in County.
* Origin. Gibl't.