House of Lords Journal Volume 8
1 January 1646

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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76, 77, 78

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 8: 1 January 1646', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 8: 1645-1647 (1767-1830), pp. 76-78. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=33922 Date accessed: 28 November 2014.


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DIE Jovis, 1die Januarii.

PRAYERS, by Mr. Vynes.

Ds. Grey de Warke. Speaker.

Comes Essex.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Kent.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Manchester.
Comes Northumb.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Denbigh.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Ds. Mountague.
Ds. Howard.
Ds. Robertes.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Bruce.

Message from the H. C. with a Proposition about the Militia;

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Henry Vane Junior, &c.

To desire Concurrence in these Particulars following:

1. A Proposition concerning the settling of the Militia of this Kingdom. (Here enter it.)

Read, and Agreed to.

and for an Answer to be prepared to the King's last Letter.

2. In an Order, as follows:

"It is this Day Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That the King's Letter of the 29th of December be referred to the Members of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms, to communicate the same to the Scotts Commissioners; and to advise with them, and prepare (fn. *) an Answer thereunto, and report the same to the Houses."

Agreed to.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees to the Particulars of this Message.

Montrel, Leave to return to London.

Ordered, That Montrele, the French Agent for Scotland, shall have Liberty to return out of Scotland to London.

Lady Harcourt's Ordinance.

The Earl of Manchester reported, "That the Committee have considered of the Ordinance concerning the Lady Harcourt; and they think it fit to pass as it came from the House of Commons."

And, upon further Consideration, the House Ordered, That the said Ordinance be re-committed; and the Lord Viscount Say & Seale and the Lord Wharton are added to the Committee.

Ordinance to continue the Committee for the Army, and the Treasurers at War.

Next, the Ordinance for continuing the Treasurer at Wars, and the Committee for the Army, was read Twice, and committed to these Lords following:

Comes Northumb.
Comes Kent.
Comes Pembrooke.
Comes Sarum.
Comes Lyncolne.
Comes Bolingbrooke.
Comes Warwicke.
Comes Manchester.
L. Viscount Say & Seale.
Ds. Robertes.
Ds. Wharton.
Ds. Bruce.

Any Five, to meet on Saturday Morning.

L. Say & Seal's Claim to be L. Warden of the Cinque Ports, &c.

Next, the Lord Viscount Say & Seale presented a Petition to this House; which was read, as follows.

(Here enter it.)

Ordered, That, upon Thursday next, this House will hear the Counsel of the Lord Viscount Say & Seale; and that a Copy of this Petition be shewed to the King's Counsel, that so they may be heard on the King's Behalf if they shall desire.

Proposition for settling the Militia.

"That both Houses of Parliament shall arm, train, and discipline, or cause to be armed, trained, and disciplined, all the Forces of the Kingdoms of England and Ireland, and Dominion of Wales, the Isles of Guernesey and Jernesey, and the Town of Berwicke upon Tweede, already raised, both for Sea and Land Service; and shall from Time to Time raise, levy, arm, train, and discipline, or cause to be levied, armed, trained, and disciplined, any other Forces, for Land and Sea Service, as in their Judgements they shall from Time to Time think fit and appoint.

"That the Monies be raised and levied for the Maintenance and Use of the said Forces for Land Service, and of the Navy and Forces for Sea Service, in such Sort, and by such Ways and Means, as both Houses of Parliament shall from Time to Time think fit and appoint, and not otherwise.

"That all the said Forces, both for Land and Sea Service, so raised or levied, or to be raised or levied, and also the Admiralty and Navy, shall be from Time to Time employed, managed, ordered, and disposed, by both Houses of Parliament, in such Sort, and by such Ways and Means, as they shall think fit and appoint, and not otherwise.

"To suppress all Forces raised, or to be raised, without Authority and Consent of both Houses of Parliament, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the Kingdoms of England and, Dominion of Wales, the Isles of Guernesey and Jernesey, and the Town of Berwick upon Tweede, or any of them.

"To suppress any Foreign Forces who shall invade, or endeavour to invade, the Kingdoms of England and Ireland, Dominion of Wales, the Isles of Guernesey and Jernesey, and the Town of Berwick upon Tweede, or any of them.

"And that it shall be High Treason in any Person or Persons, who shall levy, conduct, or command, any Forces, without such Authority or Consent, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the said Kingdoms, any Commission under the Great Seal or other Warrant to the contrary notwithstanding; and he or they to be uncapable of any Pardon from His Majesty; and their Estates shall be disposed as both Houses of Parliament shall think fit, and not otherwise.

"To conjoin such Forces of the Kingdom of England with the Forces of the Kingdom of Scotland as the said Houses of Parliament shall from Time to Time judge fit and necessary, to resist all Foreign Invasions, and to suppress any Forces raised, or to be raised, against or within either of the said Kingdoms, to the Disturbance of the Public Peace of the said Kingdoms, or any of them, by any Authority under the Great Seal, or other Warrant whatsoever, without Consent of both Houses of Parliament of England, and the Parliament or the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, respectively.

"Resolved, &c. That the Lords and Commons, upon reading the King's Letters of the 26th and 29th of December, do find a greater Necessity to continue in their Resolution, That the Militia of this Kingdom shall be put in the Power of both Houses of Parliament, and not otherwise, according to the Propositions above expressed.

"That the Propositions before-mentioned, concerning the Militia of this Kingdom, be communicated by the Members of both Houses that are of the Committee of both Kingdoms to the Scotts Commissioners, and their Concurrence desired in the said Propositions, and that with their Consent they may be presented to the King, in the Place of the former Propositions concerning the Militia, on the Behalf of the Kingdom of England, with the rest of the Propositions that shall be agreed on by the mutual Consent of both Kingdoms."

Lord Say & Seale's Petition, claiming the Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, &c.

"To the Right Honourable the Lords assembled in Parliament.

"The humble Petition of William Viscount Say & Seale;

"Sheweth,

"That the Constableship of Dover and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports was very anciently the Inheritance of the Fines, by Gift of William the First, called The Conqueror, to John Fynes his Kinsman, and his Heirs for ever, which they successively have enjoyed, from Father to Son, for Five Generations together, till that, about the Time of King John, the Fiens were removed from the actual Enjoyment of the said Places, and so continued until the Reign of King Henry the Sixth, which King, by His Letters Patents, in the 25th Year of His Reign, having revived upon Sir James Fynes the Barony of Sey & Seale, by other Letters Patents, bearing Date the 24th of February, in the same Year of His Reign, He annexed unto the said Barony, for the Support thereof, the Office of the Constableship of Dover, and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, with the Profits and Emoluments thereunto appertaining, and also with a Pension of Two Hundred Pounds per Annum; all which (as by the Letters Patents themselves upon Record doth appear) were granted to the said Sir James Fynes, and the Heirs Males of his Body, for the Support of the said Honour and Dignity; and the said Sir James Fynes accordingly enjoyed the same during his Life; but being barbarously murthered by that most execrable Rebel Jack Cade, and immediately the Civil War ensuing between the Houses of Yorke and Lancaster, the great Men that were Partizans on either Side, and in Effect Masters of the King and Kingdom by Turns, (videlicet,) Humfrey Duke of Buckingham, and Richard the Great Earl of Warwicke, possessed themselves of the said Castle and Office, for the better strengthening and carrying on that Party; by which Means, William Fynes Lord Say, Son and Heir to the said Sir James Fynes, was kept from his Right, being also slain himself, before the End of those Troubles, at Barnett Feild, on the Party of Edward the Fourth, when he was in a very hopeful Way to have recovered his Right with Advantage, had he survived that Day; but being unfortunately slain therein, and his Son Henry Lord Say not over living his Father above Four or Five Years, and dying within the Years of his Minority or soon after, and his whole Estate being detained from him by his Mother (who survived him), he left his Son Richard Lord Say, a Child of Two Years old; who, also dying soon after he came to Age, left his Son Edward Fynes, a Child of One Year old; who, likewise dying within Four or Five Years after he came out of his Minority, left his Son Richard Fynes, your Petitioner's Grandfather, a Child of Eight Years old; by means of which continual Wardship and Minority of your Petitioner's Grandfather, and the said Grandfather's Father, Grandfather, and Great Grandfather successively, the Office of the Constableship of Dover, and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, being in the mean Time in the Hands of the King's Sons, and others the greatest Men of the Kingdom, your Petitioner's Ancestors were so far from any Likelihood of recovering their Right out of their Hands, that the very Barony itself whereunto the said Office with the Appurtenances and Pension were annexed, by the like Means and Occasion, was discontinued in the Time of your Petitioner's Great Grandfather; neither could his Son, through the Opposition of some great Men at that Time, recover the same; but his Son, your Petitioner's Father, pursuing his Claim in the Time of Queen Elizabeth, the said Queen, upon due Information of his Right from divers Noble Lords appointed as Commissioners to examine the same, caused a Warrant to be issued forth, for recognizing and confirming of the said Barony upon him: But being prevented by Death before She had accomplished the same, in the First Year of King James, upon the like Petition and Information, it was recognized and confirmed unto your Petitioner's Father; but with a Clause of Non obstante, that he should take Prececedency only as from the Time of the said Recognition and Confirmation; which your now Petitioner conceiving to have been wrongfully procured, by means of some that were then powerful in Court, to maintain their own Precedency, and haply also to bar your Petitioner's Father and his Heirs from the claiming of other the Consequences of the said ancient Barony (amongst which the Office of the Constableship of Dover and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports is One); upon the Addresses of your Petitioner to His late Majesty, for the Restitution of his ancient Precedency belonging to the said Barony, the said King did, by his Letters Patents, recognize and confirm the same unto him, without any Restraint; and was graciously pleased to add thereunto the Title of a Viscount, as by His Letters Patents, bearing Date the 7th of July, in the 22th Year of His Reign, doth appear.

"In Consideration of the Premises, and that your Petitioner's ancient Barony is now fully recognized unto him as his Right, having (as he humbly conceiveth) the same Right to the said Office of the Constableship of Dover, and Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, with the Appurtenances, and to the said Pension of Two Hundred Pounds per Annum, as Heir Male Lineal descended from the Body of the said Sir James Fynes Lord Sey, to whom, and the Heirs Males of his Body, the said Office and Pension were granted for the Support of his Barony (and not without some Relation also, as your Petitioner conceiveth, to that more ancient Right of Inheritance, which, from the very Time of the Conquest, the Fynes had in the same Office), the Discontinuance of the Right only happening through the Injury of distracted Times, the Power of Princes and their Favourites, and the Calamity of so many of your Petitioner's Ancestors through continual successive Wardship and Minority; by which Means the Barony itself was also discontinued for a while; as, by the Justice of His late Majesty, his Right therein hath been recognized and restored to him, so he humbly prayeth this Honourable House, that they would take his Right to the said Office likewise into their Consideration, and the rather, because in the said Grant, not only Matter of Trust, but also several Particulars of Profit are contained, some whereof were then first granted with express Declaration, that they were given as well for Support of the said Barony, as for the Fee and Wages of the said Office: And, if it shall be thought requisite for the Public Good that the said Office should, from Time to Time, be disposed of by both Houses of Parliament, as your Petitioner is most ready to submit all his particular Interests to be disposed of in such a Way as to the Wisdom of both Houses of Parliament shall be thought most expedient, for the greater Advantage of the Commonwealth; so he doth also wholly refer himself to the Consideration and Justice of the said Houses, for his Satisfaction in some other Way, according as, upon the Examination of his Right, and Hearing of his Counsel, they shall find Cause.

"And your Petitioner shall daily pray, &c.

W. Say & Seale."

Footnotes

* Origin. and.