House of Lords Journal Volume 4
10 November 1641

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 10 November 1641', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 430-434. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35711 Date accessed: 17 September 2014.


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DIE Mercurii, videlicet, 10 die Novembris.

PRAYERS.

Conference of Yesterday reported Instructions to the Committee in Scotland, relative to the Affairs of Ireland.

The Lord Keeper reported the Effect of the Conference, which was Yesterday with the House of Commons:

"That Mr. Pym delivered, by Command from the House of Commons, divers Heads agreed upon by them, which are Instructions to be sent to the Committees of both Houses now attending His Majesty in Scotland, which the House of Commons desires their Lordships to join with them in the same. The Instructions were read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"1. You shall humbly inform His Majesty, that the Proposition made to the Parliament of Scotland, concerning their Assistance for suppressing the Rebels in Ireland, hath been fully considered and debated, by both Houses of Parliament here; and their wise and brotherly Proceedings and Expressions are apprehended and entertained by us, (fn. *) not only with Approbation, but with Thankfulness; wherefore we desire that His Majesty will be pleased, That you may, in the Name of the Lords and Commons of England, give public Thanks to the States of the Parliament of Scotland, for their Care and Readiness to employ the Forces of that Kingdom for the reducing the rebellious Subjects of Ireland to their due Obedience to His Majesty and the Crown of England.

"2. You shall further make known to His Majesty, That, in respect of the great and almost universal Revolt of the Natives of Ireland, cherished and fomented (as we have Cause to doubt) by the secret Practices and Encouragement of some Foreign States, ill affected to the Crown; and that the Northern Parts of that Kingdom may with much more Ease and Speed be supplied from Scotland than from England; we humbly advise and beseech His Majesty to make Use of the Assistance of His Parliament and Subjects of Scotland, for the present Relief of those Parts of Ireland which lye nearest to them, according to the Treaty agreed upon and confirmed in both Parliaments, and this affectionate and friendly Disposition, now lately expressed, as is more particularly specified in the Fifth Article.

"3. You shall present to His Majesty the Copy inclosed of the Declaration, which we have sent into Ireland, for the Encouragement of His good Subjects there; and, for the more speedy and effectual opposing of the Rebels, and in Execution and Performance of our Expressions therein made of Zeal and Faithfulness to His Majesty's Service, we have already taken Care for Fifty Thousand Pounds to be presently borrowed, and secured by Parliament: We have likewise resolved to hasten the Earl of Leicester, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, very speedily to repair thither, and forthwith to raise a convenient Number of Horse and Foot, for securing Dublin and The English Pale, with such other Parts as remain in His Majesty's Subjection, intending to second them with a far greater Supply.

"4. We have further Ordered and directed, That His Majesty's Arms and Ammunition, lying in the City of Carlile, shall be transported into the North Parts of Ireland, for the Supply of Carrickfargus, and other His Majesty's Forts and Garrisons there; and that a convenient Number of Men shall be sent from the North Parts of England, for the better Guard and Defence of those Forts and Countries adjoining; and that a larger Proportion of Arms and other Ammunition shall be speedily conveyed out of His Majesty's Stores of West Chester, to be disposed according to the Direction of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, for arming the Men to be sent from England, and such other His Loyal Subjects as may be raised in Ireland.

"5. And because we understand that the Rebels are like, with great Strength, to attempt the Ruin and Destruction of the British Plantation in Ulster, we humbly advise His Majesty, by the Counsel and Authority of His Parliament in Scotland, to provide, That One Regiment, consisting of a Thousand Men, furnished and accomplished with all necessary Arms and Ammunition as shall seem best to their great Wisdoms and Experience, may, with all possible Speed, be transported into Ireland, under the Command of some Worthy Person, well affected to the Reformed Religion, and the Peace of both Kingdoms, and well enabled, with Skill, Judgement, and Reputation, for such an Employment; which Forces we desire may be quartered in those Northern Parts, for opposing the Rebels, and Comfort and Assistance of His Majesty's good Subjects there, with Instructions from His Majesty, and the Parliament of Scotland, that they shall, upon all Occasions, pursue and observe the Directions of the Lord Lieutenant, his Lieutenant General, or the Governors of Ireland, according to their Authority derived from His Majesty and the Crown of England.

"6. And as touching the Wages, and other needful Charges, which this Assistance will require, we would have you, in our Name, to beseech His Majesty to commend it to our Brethren, the Estates of the Parliament of Scotland, to take it into their Care, on the Behalf of His Majesty and this Kingdom, to make such Agreements with all the Commanders and Soldiers to be employed as they would do in the like Case for themselves; and to let them know, for our Parts, we do wholly rely upon their honourable and friendly Dealing with us, and will take Care that Satisfaction be made accordingly.

"7. Lastly, you shall represent to His most Excellent Majesty this our humble and faithful Declaration, That we cannot without much Grief remember the great Miseries, Burthens, and Distempers, which have, for divers Years, afflicted all His Kingdoms and Dominions, and brought them to the last Point of Ruin and Destruction; all which have issued from the cunning, false, and malicious Practices of some of those who have been admitted into very near Places of Counsel and Authority about him, who have been Favourers of Popery, Superstition, and Innovation, Subverters of Religion, Honour, and Justice, Factors for promoting the Designs of Foreign Princes and States, to the great and apparent Danger of His Royal Person, Crown, and Dignity, and of all His People, Authors of false Scandals and Jealousies betwixt His Majesty and His Loyal Subjects, Enemies to the Peace, Union, and Confidence, betwixt Him and His Parliament, which is the surest Foundation of Prosperity and Greatness to His Majesty, and of Comfort and Hope to them; that, by their Counsels and Endeavours, those great Sums which have been lately drawn from the People have been either consumed unprofitably, or in the Maintenance of such Designs as have been mischievous and destructive to the State; and, whilst we have been labouring to support His Majesty to purge out the Corruptions and restore the Decays both of the Church and State, others of their Faction and Party have been contriving by Violence to suppress the Liberty of Parliament, and endanger the Safety of those who have opposed such wicked and pernicious Courses.

"8. That we have just Cause of Belief, that those Conspiracies and Commotions in Ireland are but the Effects of the same Counsels; and, if Persons of such Aims and Conditions shall still continue in Credit, Authority, and Employment, the great Aids which we shall be enforced to draw from His People, for subduing the Rebellion in Ireland, will be applied to the fomenting and cherishing of it there, and encouraging some such like Attempt by the Papists and ill-affected Subjects in England; and, in the End, to the Subversion of Religion, and Destruction of His loyal Subjects in both Kingdoms; and do therefore most humbly beseech His Majesty to change those Counsels, from which such ill Courses have proceeded, and which have caused so many Miseries and Dangers to Himself and all His Dominions; and that He will be graciously pleased to employ such Counsellors and Ministers as shall be approved by His Parliament, who are His greatest and most faithful Council, that so His People may with Courage and Confidence undergo the Charge and Hazard of this War, and, by their Bounty and faithful Endeavours (with God's Favour and Blessing), restore to His Majesty and this Kingdom that Honour, Peace, Safety, and Prosperity, which they have enjoyed in former Times.

"And, if herein His Majesty shall not vouchsafe to condescend to our humble Supplication, although we shall always continue, with Reverence and Faithfulness to His Person and to the Crown, to perform those Duties of Service and Obedience to which by the Laws of God and this Kingdom we are obliged; yet we shall be forced, in Discharge of the Trust which we owe to the Sate, and to those whom we represent, to resolve upon some such Way of defending Ireland from the Rebels, as may concur to the securing of ourselves from such mischievous Counsels and Designs, as have lately been, and still are, in Practice and Agitation against us, as we have just Cause to believe; and to commend those Aids and Contributions which this great Necessity shall require, to the Custody and disposing of such Persons of Honour and Fidelity as we have Cause to confide in."

Representations of the Commons about ill Counsels.

Next, Mr. Pym said, "He was to speak touching the ill Counsels, which he laid down in several Steps:

"1. First, That the Dangers which come to a State by ill Counsels are the most pernicious of all others. It is usual to compare Politic Bodies with the Natural.

"The Natural Body is in Danger divers Ways, either by outward Violence, and that may be foreseen and prevented, or else by less-appearing Maladies, which grow upon the Body by Distemper of the Air, immoderate Exercise, Diet, etc. And, when the Causes of the Disease are clear, the Remedy is easily applied; but Diseases which proceed from the inward Parts, as the Liver, the Heart, or the Brains, the more noble Parts, it is a hard Thing to apply Cure to such Diseases.

"Ill Counsels, they are of that Nature, etc. for the Mischiefs that come by evil Counsels corrupt the Vital Parts, and overthrow the Public Government, etc.

"2. Second Step. That there have been lately, and still are, ill Counsels here in this Kingdom, and about the King: 1. That there hath been lately, you will not doubt, when the main Course of Government hath been so employed, as Popery thereby hath been maintained, the Laws subverted, and no distinguishing between Justice and Injustice; and that there is still Reason to doubt, is apparent, by Courses taken to advance mischievous Designs, but that His Majesty's Wisdom and Goodness kept them from the Heart, though they were not kept out of Court; so the principal and most mischievous Designs have been practised by such as had near Access unto His Majesty, though not to His Heart; and the Apologists and Promoters of ill Counsels are still preferred.

"3. The Third Step. That the ill Counsels of this Time are in their own Natures more mischievous and more dangerous than the ill Counsels of former Times. Former Counsels have been, to please Kings in their Vices, from which our King is free; and sometimes for racking of the Prerogative; if it had gone no further, it had brought many Miseries, but not Ruin and Destruction: But the ill Counsels of this Time were destructive to Religion and Laws, by altering them both; therefore more mischievous in their own Nature than those of former Times.

"4. Fourth Step. That these ill Counsels have proceeded from a Spirit and Inclination to Popery, and have had a Dependance in Popery, and all of them tend unto it. The Religion of the Papists is a Religion incompatible with any other Religion, destructive to all others, and doth not endure any Thing that opposes it; whosoever doth withstand their Religion, if they have Power, they bring them to Ruin. There are other Religions that are not right, but not so destructive as Popery is; for the Principles of Popery are destructive to all States and Persons that oppose it, with the Progress of these mischievous Counsels; they provide Counsellors, fit Instruments and Organs, that may execute their own Designs, and to turn all Council to their own Ends; and you find that, now in Ireland, that those Designs that have been upon all the Three Kingdoms do end in a War for the Maintenance of Popery in Ireland, and would do the like here if they were able; they are so nutritive as to turn all to their own Advantage.

"5. Fifth Step. That, unless these ill Counsels be changed, as long as they continue it is impossible that any Assistance, Aid, or Advice, that the Parliament can take to reform, will be effectual for the Public Orders and Laws, but dead if not put in Execution. These that are the Instruments of State, they put Things into Action in good Order; but, if acted by evil Men, while these Counsels are on Foot, we can expect no Good; it is like a Disease that turns Nutritives into Poison.

"6. Sixth Step. That this (fn. *) is the most proper Time to desire of His Majesty the Alteration and Change (fn. *) of the evil Counsellors, because the Commonwealth is brought into Distemper by them, and so exhausted that we can endure no longer.

"Next Reason why we cannot admit of them is, to shew our Love and Fidelity to the King, in great and extraordinary Contributions and Aids. When God doth employ His Servants, He doth give some Promise to rouse up their Spirits. Reason now to expect the King's Grace in great Abundance. This is the Time where the Subject is to save the Kingdom of Ireland, with the Hazard of their Lives and Fortunes; and therefore expect from His Majesty, in a more large and bountiful Manner than at other Times, a Time of great Agitation and Action. Their State is ready by Preparation to annoy us; and ill and false Counsels at Home may quickly bring us to Ruin. As we have Weakness at Home, so we ought to discern the Actions abroad, where great Provision is made; and a Carelessness and Improvidence herein, when our Neighbours are so provided, and have such great Fleets at Sea as will open a Way to sudden Ruin and Destruction before we can be prepared; and therefore now the fittest Time to move the King.

"7. The last Step. That this Alteration of Counsels will bring great Advantage to the King in His own Designs. In all our Actions, our Prayers unto God should be, that His Name should be glorified: So our Petitions to His Majesty should bring Honour, Profit, and Advantage to Him, by a Discouragement to the Rebels, a great Part of their Confidence resting in the evil Counsels at Home, as by the Examinations appeareth.

"A great Encouragement to the King's good Subjects at Home (who hazard their Lives, and give Aid and Contribution, to have Things governed for the Public Good). It will make Men afraid to prefer Servants to the King that are ill Counsellors, when they shall come to the Examination of a Parliament; for manytimes Servants are preferred to Princes for Advantage of Foreign States.

"Next, this will put an Answer into the King's Mouth against all (fn. *) Importunity, That he is to prefer none but such as will be approved on by Parliament. Those that are honourable and most ingenuous are aptest to be troubled in this kind; and, not to deny, therefore, the King may answer, He hath promised His Parliament not to admit of any but by Advice in Parliament. This will answer them all.

"These domestic, but next Advantage, it makes us fitter to enter into Union and Treaty with Foreign Nations and States, and to be made Partakers of the Strength and Assistance of others. It will fortify us against the Designs of Foreign Princes. There hath been common Counsel at Rome and in Spaine, to reduce us to Popery. If good Counsel at Home, we shall be the better prepared to preserve Peace and Union and better Respect from abroad.

"Lastly, it will make us fit for any noble Design Abroad."

Order for securing Fifty Thousand Pounds to the City.

"An Order was made by the House of Commons, dated the 9th of November 1641, That an Ordinance of Parliament may pass, to engage the Honour, Credit, and Authority, of both Houses of Parliament, for the securing and repaying to the City the Fifty Thousand Pounds, with Interest, desired to be borrowed of them for the Occasions of Ireland; and that a provisional Act shall pass, with all Speed, for Repayment of the said Sum, with Interest, within Six Months."

Next, an Ordinance of Parliament was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

Ordinance for Stay of the Passage of Irishmen to the Rebels.

"Whereas there is just Cause to conceive that divers ill-affected Persons here, being Natives or Inhabitants of the Kingdom of Ireland, do intend to pass over thither, to join with the Rebels; it is Ordained by the Lords and Commons in Parliament, That no Irishman shall pass out of any the Ports of this Kingdom, to return into Ireland, without special Licence of the Committees of both Houses for Irish Affairs, or the Lords of His Majesty's most Honourable Privy Council, or of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland: It is further Ordained, That no Arms, Munition, or Powder, shall be transported, without such Licence as is aforesaid: It is likewise Ordained by the said Lords and Commons, That whereas, upon the Perusal of divers Letters, and other Intelligence here, there is just Cause to suspect that divers of His Majesty's Subjects in Ireland have had some Hand in the Conspiracy and Rebellions of the Irish, That the Lord Lieutenant shall certify, from Time to Time, during his Abode in England, into Ireland, the Names of such suspected Persons, and the Grounds and Reasons of the Suspicion; and that thereupon the Lords Justices of Ireland, and the rest of His Majesty's Council there, shall enter into Examination of the said Parties, and shall have Power to commit them to Prison, till the Truth may be fully discovered, that so they may be cleared if they be innocent, or, if they be found guilty, may be proceeded against, according to the Laws: And that this Ordinance of Parliament shall be a sufficient Warrant to the Lord Lieutenant, Lords Justices, and Council aforementioned."

A Message was brought up from the House of Commons, by the Lord Phillip Herbert:

Message from the H. C. for a Conference about the Irish Affairs.

To desire a present Conference (if it may stand with their Lordships Conveniency), by a Committee of both Houses, touching the Affairs of Ireland.

The Answer hereunto returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a present Meeting, in the Painted Chamber, as is desired.

Ld. Admiral acquaints the House with the King's Directions about Ships to guard the Irish Coasts.

The Lord Admiral signified, "That he had Command and Directions from His Majesty, to send some Ships for the Guarding of the Irish Coasts, and also some Ships to keep the narrow Seas, because His Majesty conceives that the Rebellion in Ireland is fomented from abroad, and that they expect some Supply from Foreign Parts." And his Lordship desired to have the Directions from the Parliament herein what to do.

Hereupon it is Ordered, To have a Conference with the House of Commons about this Business.

Conference about Irish Affairs reported.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Keeper reported the Effect of the Conference, as followeth:

Propositions of the H. C.

"That the House of Commons proposed divers Orders, made by them, to their Lordships Consideration, which they think fit to be put into Execution, touching the Affairs of Ireland:

No Irish Soldiers to go beyond Sea.

"1. The House of Commons declares, That they were misinformed concerning the List of the Soldiers to go beyond Sea, being informed they were Walloones and other Strangers; and that the Intention of their House was not to give Way to any Irish to be transported; neither doth the Order of their House extend to any Persons Subjects of the King, but only to Strangers: Therefore desires that such of them as are suspected Persons may be examined.

Coin for Ireland.

"2. That it was delivered, That the House of Commons had Resolved, That the Merchants, who have made the Proposition to their House of Transporting Coin in Specie into Ireland, for the present Occasions of that Kingdom, shall have Liberty to transport so much only as the Lords and Commons in Parliament shall, from Time to Time, give them Order and Directions for paying it there as it passes by Proclamation; and that all Sums so transported shall be registered in the Custom-house; and that they shall bring Certificates from the Ports where they shall land the said Monies, that they have landed so much there. And that the House of Commons desires their Lordships to join with them in this Order.

Supply for Ireland.

"3. That the House of Commons have agreed, that Mr. Henly and Mr. Hawkridge are to pay to Sir Adam Loftus the Sum of Twenty Thousand Pounds; that is, Six Thousand upon Sight, and the other Fourteen Thousand within Fourteen Days after that Fifteen Thousand Pounds shall be paid here; and the said Mr. Henly and Mr. Hawkridge are to receive Ten Thousand Pounds in Hand, Five Thousand more at Six Days, and Five Thousand more at Two Months; and they are to have a Licence for the transporting of Twenty Thousand Pounds of Spanish Money; and they are to have the Use of such Shipping as is appointed to transport Money for the present Service in Ireland, and are to make Entry of the said Sum in the Custom-house here, and are to bring Certificate from the Ports in Ireland, where they shall land the said Monies, that they have landed so much there.

Committee for Irish Affairs.

"4. That the House of Commons desire that Sir Robert Kinge and Colonel Culpepper may be added to those that are appointed Assistants to the Committees for the Irish Affairs.

Servants of the Royal Family to take the Oaths.

"5. That the Servants belonging to the King, Queen, Prince, or to any of the King's Children, may, according to the Law, take the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance.

Magenis and Comyn, concerning the Irish Rebellion.

"6. That the House of Commons had received, from the Mayor of the City of Chester, an Information of one Thomas Cremor, against one Magennis and Redmond Comyn, for speaking insolent and dangerous Words touching the Rebellion of Ireland: They desire that the said Magenis and Redmond may be brought up to the Parliament severally, and not be permitted to speak with one another; and that they may be examined upon such Interrogatories as shall be prepared by the House of Commons; and that the rest of the Persons that were in their Company, and fled, may be pursued with Hue and Cry, and apprehended; and such Irishmen that shall be stayed in the Ports may be examined, upon such Interrogatories as shall be presented by the House of Commons.

Papists to be recalled from Ireland.

"7. That the House of Commons desired, that their Lordships would give them Answer touching the Proposition formerly brought up, concerning the issuing out of a Proclamation in Ireland, to recall such Papists Home here, as have, within One Year last, gone into Ireland, except the Earl of St. Albanes and others who live there upon their ancient Inheritance."

This being done; this House read the Propositions severally over again, and gave particular Answers thereunto, as followeth:

Answer to the last Propositions.

To the First. Agreed to; and Ordered, That the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench shall have Power, by virtue of this Order, to call before his Lordship, and examine, Mr. Bourke and Edmond Moore, by what Authority they were employed by the Spanish Ambassador for the raising of Men, and whether they have any Monies in their Hands delivered unto them for the paying of Soldiers; and further Ordered, That all such Persons, mentioned in a List sent from the Commons House, that are any Ways suspicious, shall be likewise examined by his Lordship, and the said Examinations to be returned unto this House.

To the Second. Agreed to.
To the Third Order. Agreed to.
To the Fourth. Agreed to.
To the Fifth. Agreed to.
To the Sixth. Agreed to.

Proclamation to be issued for English Papists to return from Ireland.

To the Seventh. Agreed to; and Ordered, That the King's Attorney General shall forthwith make a Draught of a Proclamation, "That such English Papists as, within One Year last past, removed themselves into Ireland (except the Earl of St. Albanes, and such other Persons as have their ancient Estates and Habitations there) may, by Proclamation, be commanded to return into England, within One Month after the Proclamation there made, or else some Course shall be taken by Act of Parliament for Confiscation of their Estates; which said Proclamation is to be presented unto His Majesty in Scotland, that He may from thence send His Warrants and Directions for issuing out the said Proclamation in the Kingdom of Ireland."

Then this House Resolved, To let the House of Commons know, That their Lordships had agreed to their aforesaid Propositions.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about an Answer to their last Propositions.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Dr. Bennett and Dr. Littleton:

To desire a Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, touching an Answer to the Propositions brought up at the last Conference.

The Messengers returned with this Answer:

Answer.

That the House of Commons will give a present Meeting, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Conference reported.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Keeper reported, "That he had acquainted the House of Commons with their Lordships Consent to their Propositions."

Soldiers that were concealed in St. Katherine's.

Ordered, That it is referred to the Committees for the Irish Affairs, to consider how to dispose of the Soldiers, which are in St. Katherin's; and how the Guard that watches them shall be paid; and how the Soldiers shall be provided for, to keep them from Want of Food.

Some of the Instructions to be sent to the Committee in Scotland, assented to.

After this, the House took into Consideration the Instructions which are to be sent into Scotlande, to the Committees there; and the several Articles being read, the House gave these Resolutions, as followeth:

To the First Article. This House assented to.
To the Second. Agreed to.
To the Third. Agreed to.
To the Fourth. Agreed to.
To the Fifth. Agreed to.

1000 Scots for Ireland.

Resolved, upon the Question, by the major Part, That there shall go a Thousand Scotts out of Scotland, for the repressing of the Rebellion in Ireland.

To the Sixth. Agreed to.

Ordered, That the Debate of the remanent Propositions is deferred until To-morrow.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem crastinum, videlicet, diem Jovis, 11m diem instantis Novembris, hora 11a Aurora, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Deest in Originali.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. Opportunity.