House of Lords Journal Volume 4
21 December 1641

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1767-1830

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 4: 21 December 1641', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 4: 1629-42 (1767-1830), pp. 484-486. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=35745 Date accessed: 30 September 2014.


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DIE Martis, videlicet, 21 die Decembris.

PRAYERS.

Bp. of Rochester excused.

The Bishop of Rochester was excused for being absent.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Phillip Stapleton, Knight:

Message from the H. C. about the State of Ireland.

That the House of Commons last Night had laid before their Lordships the miserable Estate of the Kingdom of Ireland, and desired their Lordships to take the Business into speedy Consideration: Since, the House of Commons understand that Dublin is in great Danger to be lost, Six Hundred Men being cut off by the Rebels, in going to relieve Treda: The House of Commons desires that all Ways may be used for the Preservation of that Kingdom; and they conceive the best Way to save Dublin is, by Way of Diversion, to send the Scotts speedily into the Province of Ulster; therefore (the Scotts Commissioners being to send away into Scotland To-morrow Morning) the House of Commons desires their Lordships would join with them in the Propositions received from the Scotts Commissioners, that so Men may be sent into Ireland (fn. *) speedily. The House of Commons having done this, they do declare that, if there † be any Omission, they desire to clear themselves of any Thing as may fall upon Ireland.

The Answer returned hereunto for the present was:

Answer.

That the House is not now full; but, as soon as it is, they will take the Matter of their Message into Consideration.

Ld. Bruce excused.

The Lord Bruse was excused for his Absence.

Propositions of the Commons, touching the Parliament of Ireland.

The Lord Kymbolton reported to this House the Two Propositions delivered this Day to the Lords Committees, by the Committee of the House of Commons.

"The First Proposition was:

"That the Parliament of Ireland may be prorogued, or adjourned; and that for these Reasons:

"1. Because the Protestants cannot come without Danger; the Papists may.

"2. To resort to Dublin, may make Scarcity of Victuals.

"3. The coming of many Papists with their Followers may endanger the Surprize of the Castle.

"That the Parliament may not meet to do any Act, as they did before the dissolving of the Parliament, is thought to be the safest.

"The Second Proposition is:

"They are informed that, by the Law of Ireland, if the Deputy should die, the Lords may choose their own Governor; therefore the House of Commons desire, that some settled Commission may be (in case the Deputy miscarry by Death) that may appoint who shall be Governor."

Scots Commissioners Answer, concerning their Propositions.

The Lords Commissioners reported, "That, according to their Lordships Directions, they had acquainted the Scotts Commissioners, that this House had taken into Consideration their Propositions, and desired them to stay their Messengers as long as they could: But they return this Answer, That they have been here a great while, and the Treaty hath been a Fortnight on Foot, and they have received yet no Answer; those that sent them in Scotland expected to hear from them before this Time, because they have Five and Twenty Hundred Men, which lie upon them in Pay, which were to have been continued no longer than the 8th of this Month; therefore they desire an Answer this Night (for longer than this Night they could not stay) to their Propositions; else they must send into Scotland, to disband the Five and Twenty Hundred Men."

Upon this, the House was adjourned into a Committee during Pleasure, to debate the Scotts First Proposition, concerning the Ten Thousand Scotts to be sent out of Scotland into Ireland.

The Proposition was read, and the Resolution of the House of Commons therein; and, after much Debate, the House was resumed; and it was agreed, That Ten Thousand Scotts should go into Ireland, if it may be ascertained that Ten Thousand Englishmen may speedily be sent likewise.

To this Purpose, it was Resolved to have a Conference with the House of Commons; and these Two following Propositions should be propounded to the House of Commons at the Conference:

Propositions to the H. C. about Ten Thousand Scots, and as many English, to go to Ireland.

"1. To desire to know what Certainty that House will give this, that, if their Proposition concerning the present going of Ten Thousand Scotts into Ireland be agreed unto, that Ten Thousand English may speedily follow.

"2. Whether they will concur with this House, and vote in their House, That Ten Thousand shall go as well as Ten Thousand Scotts; and that the King be moved to give Assent thereunto."

Message to the H. C. for a Conference, about Irish Affairs.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Robert Rich and Mr. Page:

To desire a Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, touching the Irish Affairs.

Committee for Gunpowder.

Ordered, That the Committee for Gunpowder do meet on Tuesday next, at Three a Clock in the Afternoon, in the Painted Chamber.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Denzill Hollis:

Message from the H. C. to consider the wretched State of Ireland.

That the House of Commons had lately attended their Lordships, to desire them to concur with them in their Desires concerning the lamentable Condition of the Kingdom of Ireland; and that their Lordships would be pleased to take some speedy Resolutions therein.

Also he said, "He was commanded to present to their Lordships a Petition presented to the House of Commons from the Lords and divers Gentlemen of Ireland now in London, which the House of Commons desire their Lordships would be pleased to take into speedy Consideration; for the House of Commons say, they can think of nothing but Ireland, nor speak nothing but Ireland."

Then the Petition was read, in hæc verba: videlicet,

"The humble Petition of divers Lords and Gentlemen of Ireland, now in London.

"To the Honourable House of Commons.

Petition of Lords and Gentlemen of Ireland, now in London.

"Humbly Shewing, That your Petitioners have received many and particular Advertisements, from all Parts of the Kingdom of Ireland, which set forth the universal Desolations made in such Plantations of the British, both English and Scotch, wheresoever the barbarous Irish Rebels have come, to the utter Destruction both of the Persons there inhabiting, and extirpating of the Reformed Protestant Religion there set up, through the Royal Care and Piety of King James of Blessed Memory, and His Majesty that now is, and preserved, by the great Industry and pious Endeavours of near Forty Years Travail, by those who have spent their whole Lives in reducing that Kingdom to Civility, which is now utterly desolated by the Proceedings that have been found so matchlessly cruel, that no Age nor Story can parallel their Inhumanities, some whereof, your Petitioners are informed, have been touched upon by Advertisements already brought to this Honourable House, whereof there is so great Variety that Volumes were but little enough to contain the Particulars; many Thousands of Men, Women, and Children, lying mangled on the Face of the Earth, crying loud to God and these Neighbour Kingdoms for Relief against those Monsters, whose Conspiracy is now so universal, that small Aids will be not only inconsiderable to effect the Work, but a Means to lengthen the War, with the Loss not only of the Treasure applied therein, but also of the Persons employed, who, being but few, will be in Danger to be given up to the Cruelties of the Rebels; by that Means (which God prevent) will they gain not only great Access to their Number, but (which is more considerable) that Experience in War, and Use of Arms, as may render them infinitely more able to make Resistance against your hereafter Supplies. These Particulars your Petitioners, out of the deep Sense they have of the Calamities incumbent to that and in Danger to fall on this Kingdom, with all Humility crave Leave to present, most humbly desiring that, in Pursuance of the Zeal and Fervency already shewn to the Glory and Worship of God, to the Honour and Renown of His most Excellent Majesty (both which are now strongly assaulted and pushed at), and out of the tender Commiseration already expressed for Relief of that bleeding Kingdom, that this Honourable Assembly will represent such prevalent Arguments unto His Sacred Majesty and the House of Peers, that the Ten Thousand Men tendered by the Kingdom of Scotland, and accepted of by this Honourable Assembly, may be speedily ordered to resort into Ulster; not but that we do desire there may be as great a Proportion of Soldiers sent out of this Kingdom as soon as they can be prepared, if so it may please His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament, the Contagion of Rebellion in Ireland having spread itself over so many other Parts of the Kingdom, and yet daily more and more increasing, as will require the Service of those who shall be sent out of England, for the Subdual of the Rebels, and Comfort of His Majesty's good Subjects in the other Provinces. But forasmuch as your Petitioners, many of them whose whole Estates, and some of whose Wives, Children, and nearest Kindred and Friends, are already in the Hands and Possession of those barbarous, bloody Rebels of Ulster, and that they have more than ordinary Cause to fear that the remaining Protestant Party, together with the important Towns of Carrickfargus, Londonderry, and Colrane, being the chief Bulwarks and Fortresses of that Province, may, for Want of speediest Relief, be surprized and destroyed, and by that Means the rest of the Kingdom extremely endangered, to the irreparable Damage and Discomfort of His Majesty and all His good and loyal Subjects of all His Dominions; therefore your Petitioners do most instantly supplicate this Honourable Assembly, to endeavour the hastening thither with all possible Expediment the Ten Thousand Men out of Scotland, whose Assistance, being within Three Hours Sail, may be soonest convoyed, and whose Constitutions will notably match with the Rebels, being well able (as many of these Petitioners have known by former Experience) to follow them through the Bogs and Moorish Places, frequent in those Parts during this Winter Season, which other Supplies possibly may not be so fit for at present. This Number, added to those raised, and to be raised, in those Parts (through God's Blessing), may soon check these Insolencies, and contribute much for reducing that Kingdom to due Obedience, and yield unspeakable Comfort and Relief to many Thousand disconsolate, bleeding Protestant Souls, who have long languished in Expectation of Aid from that and this Kingdom; the longer retarding whereof will carry loud Cries to Heaven against those who cause the same. And your Petitioners shall pray, &c.

"A. Loftus,
Theo. (fn. *) Dowcra,
Cromwell,
Geo. Blundell,
Faith. Fortescue,
Ros. Packhurst,
Ra. Whisler,
Rich perkins,
Ro. Digby,
Hen. Blayney,
Edw. Loftus,
Rob. King,
John Moore,
Ra. Wallos,
Nic. Loftus,
Jo. Davis."
Tho. Foliott,
Fran. Mountnorris,
Arthur Jones,
John Clotworthy,
Arth. Annesley,
Tho. Fortescue,
Rich.Fitz-Gerrard,

"The humble Answer of Inigo Jones, Esquire, Surveyor of His Majesty's Works, to the Declaration of the Commons, upon the Complaint, and in the Behalf, of the Parishioners of the Parish of St. Gregories, London.

Inigo Jones's Answer to the Impeachment against him.

"At which Day the said Inigo Jones, Esquire, appeared before the Lords in Parliament; and [ (fn. *) it being] demanded what he could say in Answer to the Declaration brought up from the House of Commons against him, he the said Inigo Jones, for Answer thereunto, saith, That he is not guilty of the Offence charged in the said Declaration, in such Manner and Form as therein is expressed."

Ordered, That the Cause of Inigo Jones shall be heard in this House on Friday come Fortnight; and the Parishioners of St. Gregories are to have Notice hereof, and to bring in their Witnesses to make good the Charge.

The Messengers return with this Answer from the House of Commons:

Answer from the H. C.

That they will give a present Meeting, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Lords to go to the Abby To-morrow, being the Fast.

Ordered, That the Lords do meet here in this House To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, and go to the Abbey of Westm. to keep the Fast.

Sir W. Boughton's, and Williamson's Answer.

This Day the several Answers of Sir William Boughton, Baronet, and Williamson, were delivered in to this House, and received, and are to be taken into Consideration when the Time is come for Private Business.

Committee for Religion.

Ordered, That the Committee for Religion do meet on Wednesday come Sevennight.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Hotham:

Message from the H. C. to sit a while.

To desire this House to sit a while, and the House of Commons will come up to their Lordships about the Business of Ireland.

The Answer hereunto returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will sit a while, as is desired.

The Irish Lords and Gentlemen, Petitioners to attend.

Ordered, That the Lords Committees for the Irish Affairs do meet To-morrow Morning, at Nine of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber; at which Time the Lord Viscount Loftus, Robert Lord Digby, Lord Foliott, Lord Dowcra, Lord Blany, Lord Mountnorris, Sir Faithfull Fortescue, Knight, Sir Robert Kinge, Edward Loftus, Esquire, Tho. Fortescue, Esquire, Nicholas Loftus, Arthur Jones, George Blundall, John Moore, Arthur Annasley, Robert Whilstler, John Davis, Richard Fitz-gerrard, and Richard Perkins, are to have Notice to attend the Lords Committees, to hear what Reasons they can give concerning the putting off the Parliament of Ireland.

Bill for pressing.

Ordered, That the Bill for pressing of Soldiers shall be debated on Thursday next.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Tho. Barrington, Baronet:

Message from the H. C. for a Conference on the Irish Affairs.

To desire a Free Conference, by a Committee of both Houses, touching the Matter of the late Conference.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That their Lordships will give a present Meeting, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Conference on the Two Propositions of this House for sending 10,000 Scots, and as many English, to Ireland.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed; and the Lord Keeper reported the Effect of this Conference, which was an Answer to their Lordships Two Propositions, offered to the House of Commons this Day:

"1. For the Certainty which their Lordships desire of sending Ten Thousand English into Ireland, the House of Commons say, that they were not used to be capitulated withall; their Actions are free, as well without Conditions as Capitulations; and the House of Commons desire it may be so no more.

"2. The House of Commons think they have given sufficient Certainty already, having formerly voted the sending of Ten Thousand English into Ireland, and transmitted the same to their Lordships, and likewise sent the same into Ireland; therefore they think it not necessary to vote it again, but to desire their Lordships would vote the sending of Ten Thousand Scotts to Ireland by itself, without any Relation to the Ten Thousand English, and that speedily, the Safety of Ireland depending upon it."

Further it was reported, "That their Commissioners have acquainted the House of Commons, that the Scotts have now Two Thousand and Five Hundred Men in Scotland, in Pay, and the Scotts Commissioners are to send into Scotland To-morrow Morning, to give the Council of Scotland an Answer herein, that so they may dispose of their Five and Twenty Hundred Men accordingly; therefore the House of Commons do desire their Lordships would resolve to send Ten Thousand Scotts without any Relation to the Ten Thousand English, for they conceive the Ten Thousand English cannot go unless the Bill for Pressing passes."

The House was adjourned into a Committee during Pleasure, to debate this Conference; and the House being resumed, it was Resolved, upon the Question, nemine contradicente,

10,000 English to Ireland.

That Ten Thousand English shall be sent into Ireland.

Resolved, upon the Question,

10,000 Scots to Ireland.

That Ten Thousand Scotts shall be sent into Ireland, upon such Conditions as shall be agreed upon by the Parliament in England.

Scots Commissioners to receive an Answer to their Propositions.

Ordered, That the Lords Commissioners do acquaint the Scotts Commissioners with the aforesaid Votes; and to let them know, that this House hath entered into Consideration of their Propositions; and their Lordships will give them an Answer herein, with all Expedition.

Committee to preserve good Correspondency between both Houses.

Ordered, That the Committee for keeping of good Correspondency between both Houses shall meet on Friday Morning next, to take into Consideration this last Message brought up from the House of Commons.

Commons acquainted with the Votes for Men to go to Ireland.

The House of Commons staying in the Painted Chamber for an Answer to the Message, the House was adjourned during Pleasure; and the Lords went to acquaint the House of Commons, that this House had voted that Ten Thousand English and Ten Thousand Scotts shall be sent into Ireland.

The House was resumed.

Adjourn.

Dominus Custos Magni Sigilli declaravit præsens Parliamentum continuandum esse usque in diem Jovis, videlicet, 23m diem instantis Decembris, hora 1a post meridiem, Dominis sic decernentibus.

Footnotes

* Origin. speedy.
* Deest in Originali.
* Origin. Docwrns.
* Deest in Originali.