Thursday, January 8, 1656–7.
Sir Thomas Wroth. I move that, in respect of the Speaker's weakness, (fn. 1) (who had stayed till almost ten) (fn. 2) you would
adjourn the business'of the day, and go into a Grand Committee. If this motion is not liked, I shall desire to say some,
thing to the business.
Mr. Attorney-General. You have a great business to be
debated this day, (the Bill for excise in a Grand Committee)
I desire that you would adjourn the debate for another day,
in regard of your ease.
Mr. Bond and Mr. Ashe the Elder. For your own ease,
let the House go into a Grand Committee upon the Excise
Bill, and adjourn till Monday, and then take up this debate.
Mr. Robinson. I. should as much respect your ease and
health as any man, but I look upon this business of the day
as of as great concernment as any thing; and I can have no
heart to go to any business else, till we know how we shall be
secured as to our sitting here. For, if we contend so about
easing our enemies, I fear me we shall forfeit and discontent
our friends. If you will not go on with this, I would not
have us admit any other business, but adjourn for some time.
Lord Lambert. This is a business of such consequence,
that I see not how we can proceed upon any thing till it be
over. I wish, if it had been possible, we might have gone on
with it. It is a great discouragement to your friends to see
us scruple at this business so much, and encourages our enemies. I would have us do nothing till this be ended.
Colonel Whetham. If you adjourn, I desire it may be determined whether Committees may sit or no, for it was debated last adjournment.
Alderman Foot. Here are divers aldermen and citizens
of London waiting at the door with a petition. I desire they
may be called in.
Major-General Whalley. A great many of us are very
heartless to go on with any other business, till it be known
what testimony we shall show to the old interest of England.
If you will admit of any business, I desire you would go on
with that which is the business of the day; but I doubt it
will not be with your ease to go upon the debate now.
Major-General Goffe. I am much troubled that a postnight should pass, before you come to a resolution in this
business. I wish it had been otherwise. I doubt the consequences of it, when it comes to be noised in the country. It
is a matter of such weight, that I confess I should have thought
myself happy if we could have gone on with this debate, but
we must be merciful to you and not debate you to death. However, let us not admit new business till we have done this.
Sir Thomas Wroth. Determine this, whether Committees
may sit, the House being adjourned.
Mr. Speaker. This is very apparent, every week, that
Committees are still saved, by adjournment from Saturday to
Lord Chief-Justice. It is very clear; and looking into Journals you will find, that, without special order to save Committees, Committees cannot sit. When the House adjourned
into London, (fn. 3) there was a special order that Committees
should sit, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House.
If the House should rise, you may come back again and sit,
if you please, but that must be by order.
Resolved, that all Committees may sit and act, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House.
Lord Eure moved that Colonel Lascels have leave to go
into the country.
Sir William Strickland seconded him.
Mr. Nathaniel Bacon. Before you adjourn, take care that
the fast-day (fn. 4) be kept in the House, on Friday.
Mr. Speaker. That is very material, and I thought to
have moved you in it. There must be a saving of that day,
and I doubt whether I ought not to be here to make a House.
Resolved, that the fast-day be kept in the House on Friday
next, notwithstanding the Speaker's absence.
Mr. Fowell moved, that the House might be dissolved
into a Grand Committee upon the Bill for the Excise, upon
Mr. Downing and Colonel White. If we cannot go on
with one business, let us not exclude all business; to do
nothing, because we cannot do that which is the business of
the day. I desire we may go on in a Grand Committee upon
the Bill for Excise.
Mr. Bond. Notwithstanding the adjournment, the House
may keep together in a Grand Committee, upon the Excise
Major-General Disbrowe. I never knew any success of a
Grand Committee sitting one day, and reporting it another
time; never knew any fruits of it, for then any member may
speak when it is reported, as well as at the debate. I desire
the question may be, to adjourn.
Sir William Strickland. We might go on in a Grand
Committee upon the Excise Bill, and no doubt but success
enough may come of it. We do but spend our time, to stay
here, and do nothing. I desire that the Committee may sit
as well on Saturday as this day.
Mr. Robinson. It is not solemnity enough for so great a
Bill, to be in a Grand Committee upon it, the Speaker not
present. It looks like a private Committee, and little fruits
will come of it.
Major-General Disbrowe. It may be considered whether
ever a Grand Committee sat when the House was adjourned
Sir Richard Onslow. I know, in the Long Parliament, (fn. 5)
when the House was adjourned into the city for ten days,
that the Grand Committee sat, from day to day, upon the
business of the five members.
Resolved, that the Grand Committee do sit and act this
day, and on Saturday morning, upon the Bill for Excise, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House.
Resolved, that this House do adjourn itself till Monday
After this last question was put, a member stood up and
said, that the Noes in the former question had it, but, by Mr.
Speaker, he spoke too late.
Mr. Bond was of opinion that there needed no question for
the Grand Committee's sitting, for they might sit by force of
the former vote and orders.
Resolved, that Colonel Lascels have leave to go into the
Mr. Speaker left the chair, and Mr. Fowell was called to the
Grand Committee chair by Mr. Ashe the elder, who, to excuse his neighbour, Baron Parker, (who was also called on to
the chair,) stood up and called Mr. Fowell.
The order for the Grand Committee read.
Resolved, that the Isles of Jersy, and Guernsy, and Wight,
be left out of the Bill.
Mr. Bond and Mr. Downing. These isles are poor, and
were never charged in any time, not so much as with customs.
All kings and queens were careful of the poor people.
Per Mr. Bond, Mr. Downing and Mr. Robinson.
Resolved, that Scotland and Ireland, and the Isles thereunto belonging, be also charged in this Bill as well as England.
Colonel Whetham. Upon the same account that you excused the other islands, you should leave out the isles of Scotland, for they are as poor as can be.
Resolved, that every pound of Spanish tobacco pay, 12d.
And every pound of English plantations 1d. Resolved to
agree to this clause.
Resolved, that for every ton of wine, not of the growth of
Spain, there be paid 6l.
Mr. Ashe the elder. The dominions thereof should be
added, otherwise the Canary were excluded.
Resolved, that the words "or the dominions thereof," be
Resolved, that every ton of Spanish wine pay 9l.
Mr. Downing. Spanish wine pays not proportionable to
French and Rhenish wine, though Spain be our enemy.
Alderman Foot. The Spanish wine and Malaga's are very
bad this year, and it is too high.
Resolved, that the vintners pay for, every ton of wine in
their cellars 3l.
Alderman Foot. They have paid for it once, would you
have them pay for it again.
Captain Baynes. This gentleman spoke before for the
merchants: now he speaks against them; for the Committee
considered if 3l. per ton be not paid by the vintners for the
wine in their cellars, their charge will be unequal to the merchants'. They paid but 6l. and the merchants shall pay 9l.
a ton. This is unequal, and will cause the vintners to undersell the merchants.
Colonel Cooper. The retailers ought not to pay over
again. It is very hard. They have once paid all their duty
that could be demanded of them. This is but 6l. per ton
upon the merchants, which is but 6d. per gallon.
Captain Baynes. The vintners have been a long time
gainers. They sell for 967. per ton, and buy it for 50l. per
ton. The merchants ought to be rather spared; for the retailers pay but 3l. out of all their gain.
Mr. Downing. We lay not near so much charge upon our
wines as the Hollanders do. I desire this may lie upon the
Alderman Foot. It is much equity that they should not
pay their duty over again. The vintners pay great houserents and taxes. The new wines are very bad, and the old
wines will grow eager.
Sir Christopher Pack. I desire this may go on upon the
vintners; for none have such opportunities to be gainers as
they. Your excise will lie most justly upon wines, tobacco,
and strong waters.
Colonel White. If you lay not this upon the vintners, you
had as good take it off the merchant too; for I believe the
retailers have filled their cellars already, and it will do you
no service this year.
Mr. Highland. This is not just. I hope it will never pass
this House. I am afraid it will not advance your excise.
Raising of your charge will carry your merchants to another
place. This is against the liberty of the people of England
to double charge one with duty. I wonder who would break
into their cellars, if you did not provide a clause for it. I
hope it will not pass the House.
Lord Strickland. You punish the Spaniard by this means,
and not the merchants, or vintners; and if customs or excise
must be laid, it is most justly upon the wines. We vend
more than all Europe besides. If you lay it not now
upon the vintners, they will say still, it is old wine in their
Mr. Godfrey. In punishing the Spaniard, I would not
have you punish your own people. It is against all equity
to lay a further excise upon what has already paid the full
duty that can be demanded. By the same rule you may increase the excise upon any other commodity which the retailer
hath paid the duty for.
Sir William Strickland. If you had this House full of
gold, you ought in justice to punish the vintners; for they
have oppressed the nation, and enriched themselves, and got
more wealth than any profession whatsoever.
Captain Hatsel. The merchants have been oppressed,
the vintners have got the riches. They have bought their
wines at 50l, per ton, and have sold at 100l. per ton. Their
gain was certain, for the price never fell, after it was once
raised; for from 12d to 2s. it came sometimes to 2s. 6d.
This was treble excise that we paid.
Mr. Highland. Let us not judge of the gains of merchants and vintners. The merchants have gained excessively.
I have seen their bills where they have taken 40l. a pipe.
They venture, and sell their commodities at excessive rates.
Time was when excise was thought an odious thing in this
nation. Let us not give occasion to the people to call it
Mr. Ashe the Elder. I wonder how that gentleman has a
face to say that the. merchants have the gain. It is known
the Spaniard has raised the customs upon the merchants; the
vintners have been constant gainers; and, under colour of excise, have made us pay treble excise, from 12d. per quart to
2s. 6d. and 2s.
Mr. Attorney-General. If you lay not this upon the vintners, it is not the merchants that will lose by it, but it is the
commonwealth will be cheated; for most of the wine of this
vintage is now in the vintners' cellars. The vintners have
gained excessively, and raised the price of their wines double.
Mr. Downing. Unless you lay it upon the vintners you
will have no benefit at all of this clause, for we know that the
time of year for such wine to come in is only now, and most
of it is already in the merchants' cellars. Again, this clause
has once passed the House upon a long debate.
Here grew a dispute, whether one could speak against a
vote of the House.
Mr. Attorney-General asserted it, that one could not speak
against a vote of the House:
Sir Liskbone Long and Mr. Bond were of another opinion,
that when the votes come to be brought into the House in a
Bill, one may speak to every piece of it, nothing was so clear.
This argument was tossed between Mr. Attorney-General
and Sir Lislebone Long a good while, and no resolution come
to; but liberty was taken to speak against the vote, ut supra.
Resolved, that there be 3l. per ton laid upon vintners, ut
Resolved, that these words be added to the clause, after the
word vintners, "wine coopers, or any other persons, buying
to sell again." Resolved, to agree to the clause, thus amended.
Resolved, that the commissioners have power to appoint
officers to enter into houses, warehouses, cellars, &c.
Colonel White moved, that there may be added, "between
sun and sun, and that by warrant under hand and seal."
Mr. Robinson, moved that there might be commissioners
appointed in every county, in this Bill, to the end things may
be better regulated in the country than now they are. That
the sub-commissioners may not be parties, farmers of the
excise, to be judges in their own cases, to imprison men's
persons, and distrain men's goods.
Captain Baynes. You may appoint new officers, notwithstanding this clause.
Mr. Noel. If you have any exception against your officers
now in commission, you may put others in; but if not, it will
not admit of a delay to do it by new hands. The commodities exciseable, are daily consuming. You are necessitated to
make use of your officers now in commission.
Mr. Robinson. This necessity has been an argument these
twelve years, for continuing men in office. I would have it
made use of no more. It is fit we should know who are the
officers, that we may expect an account from them, and that
they may know their masters. If a Parliament lay a tax, let
them appoint officers to lay it, and regulate the collection, &c.
Mr. Noel was going to add the words "Commissioners
Sir Lislebone Long stood up and said, it is not so seasonable
at this time to appoint officers. I never knew any success of
Parliaments appointing officers. He that has four offices
must have five. I desire you would go on with the Bill, and
put this to the House.
Mr. Downing was of the same opinion.
Mr. Attorney-General. Go on, and put this to the House.
Judge Lawrence. It is not so fit to appoint officers by
Act of Parliament; for they cannot be removed for any misdemeanours but in Parliament.
Mr. Robinson. I doubt the gentleman of the long robe is
mistaken, that none can be removed but by Parliament for
any misdemeanour. He may remember judges' commissions
run quamdiu se bene gesserit. Let us not lose our privilege
of Parliament, for we find that officers for tonnage and poundage were appointed in Parliament.
Mr. Bampfield. I desire you would put the question for
naming Commissioners in the Bill. It is fit we should know
those to whom we give power to enter into men's houses, and
break doors, &c. By the same power that they may enter,
they may rob or steal.
The question being put, whether the words "by the Commissioners hereafter named," should be added in this place, it
was carried in the negative.
The Committee divided: Yeas 40, Noes 50. Tellers,
Lord Salisbury and Mr. Attorney-General.
Resolved, that the word "spent" be left out.
Mr. Godfrey and Mr. West moved, that the entry of the
officer might be in the presence of a known sworn officer,
and between sun and sun.
Captain Baynes. This clause will do better afterwards,
when you come to the. compulsive clause, as to the breaking
open doors. If the officers be not opposed, there is no need
of a sworn officer; for, by consent of the vintner, night or
day, the officer may enter.
Mr. Highland. I hope you will never put the trouble
upon the constable, to run at every motion of a petty officer.
They shall have trouble endless. I think where there is no
opposition, there is no occasion for a constable.
Colonel Cooper. If a constable must be tied to attend an
exciseman, between sun and sun, where there is no occasion,
they must do nothing else. It is fit you should give the constable a good salary.
Mr. Downing. This looks like arresting of a man; to take
a constable along, to every act that the exciseman does. This
is very impracticable, and it will lose your excise. You had
better make your constable exciseman, and so save a labour.
Mr. Robinson. It is usual in London for a landlord to
take a constable along with him, when he goes to demand his
rent. I would have this bear as much of the civil authority
as may be, and that it may be between sun-set and sun-rising.
Alderman Foot. I doubt, by limiting a time for the officers
to enter, you will destroy your excise, for there will be a
great advantage taken, if the retailers have any time to convey away their commodities. I fear this will not be made
Judge Lawrence moved, that it might not be put between
sun and sun, but between such and such hours, because of
the shortness of the winter days.
Mr. Bampfield. I desire it may stand between sun and
sun, for there will be time enough for the officer to search
in winter days as well as summer. The sun shines in winter
as well as summer, in England. It may be, it does not shine
in some part of Scotland.
Mr. Godfrey. Under colour of an officer, any thief may
enter a man's house in the night time.
Colonel House. Many of us have a greater stomach to our
dinners than to the Excise Bill. I desire you would adjourn
Mr. Bampfield. I desire you would adjourn, that we may
sleep in quiet in our beds this night, now that you are debating the breaking open of mens' doors, &c. There are many
things in this clause which will be spoken to, and you have
little time for it now.
Alderman Foot. I rise up to second that motion, to adjourn.
Mr. Downing. Refer this clause to a private Committee,
to prepare it against your sitting.
Resolved, that a sub-Committee be appointed, to prepare
this clause against the next sitting. Captain Baynes, Mr. Downing, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Godfrey, Mr. Bampfield, and
In the inner painted chamber sat the Committee for Leicester Hospital. (fn. 6)
In the Speaker's chamber some of the Committee for Bibles,
and for Judge-Advocate Whalley's diabolical book (fn. 7) met, but
could not make a Committee.
In the duchy chamber sat the Committee upon a prisage.
I was writing all the time in the office.
Captain Lister went this day out of town to Edmonton, to
bury Lieutenant-Colonel Cobbett, who was Lieutenant-Colonel to Major-General Lambert, a very honest sociable man,
they said; who got his death at Dunbar (fn. 8) by marching in a
great sweat to fight the enemy off a hill, and was there commanded on duty to stay all night, where it rained terribly, and
there he got such a cold as he never recovered.
That night I was with Mr. Moore and Mr. Paine at the
Bull's Head, and with Mr. Booth and Colonel Browne at the
Half-moon. They observed that Captain Philip Jones, who
has now 7,000l. per annum, was born but to 8 or 10l. a
year, Sir John Barkstead was a thimble-maker, Kelsey sold
leather-points, Major-General Bridge was a common dragooner in Yorkshire, not long since a sneaking, &c.; and they reckoned up the mean extraction of many more Major-Generals.
Ordered, that Sir John Trevor and Mr. Trevor, have leave
to go into the country.
Ordered, that Colonel Bethel have leave to go into the
Resolved, that, notwithstanding the adjournment of the
House, the several Committees may sit and act.
Resolved, that the members of this House do meet tomorrow, for the observation of the fast, notwithstanding the
absence of Mr. Speaker.
Resolved, that the debate upon the Bill for continuing and
laying the tax for maintainance of the militia forces, &c. be
adjourned till Monday morning, and nothing to intervene.
The question being propounded, that the House do sit in a
Grand Committee of the whole House on this day, and on Saturday morning next, upon the Bill of Excise, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House, and that the House be resolved into a Grand Committee accordingly:
And the question being put, that that question should now
be put, it passed in the affirmative. And the main question being put, it was resolved, that the House, in a Grand
Committee of the whole House, &c. ut supra.
The House, according to former order, adjourned itself
until Monday morning next, at eight o'clock.
The House, according to former order, was resolved into
a Grand Committee upon the additional Bill, for the better
improvement and advancing the receipt of the Excise. See
Mr. Speaker left the chair, Mr. Fowell took the chair. See
debates inde supra.
Mr. Disbrowe told Mr. West and me, that, this night,
about eleven or twelve, the plot for the firing of Whitehall
chapel was discovered by the smell of a match, by an officer
of the guard. He heard two of the plotters examined by his
Highness. He said it was thus.
They had cut a hole in a back-door, entering into the
chapel, the next seat to Lord Lambert's, and there pulled
back the spring lock, and in the seat set a basket of wild-fire,
made up of all combustibles, as tar, pitch, tow, gunpowder,
&c. in little pieces, and hung a lighted match, about half-ayard long, out of the basket, which, by their computation,
would have burnt up to the basket within half-an-hour. With
this they would have set the chapel on fire, and haply a great
part of the House, for, as one of the plotters confessed, it was
such wild stuff it would have burned through stone walls.
In this flame, some great villany was to be acted upon his
Highness's person, that the offenders might better escape in
the smoke, as will appear by the sequel, when it comes to be
The council were sent for after they were risen; and it was
once purposed to have set some seats on fire and doubled the
guard, and so watched the consequence: but this was thought
to raise too great a tumult, and call down the city, and make
the people believe it was only a purposed plot to try men's
Next morning two of the offenders were discovered. One
confessed something. The other was a stout, sturdy fellow.
He had been a soldier all along in the Parliament army, and
quarter-master to Sir John Reynolds. He was loth to be
taken, so had his nose cut off almost, by three of the guard,
who went to apprehend him. He told them he wanted his
weapon, else he would not have been taken upon such slender
His Highness asked him if he were not in the chapel that
night about five and six. He answered no. But his Highness said he would prove it by two or three witnesses, who
saw him there at that time. He told him further, he could
prove that he was the man should have pistoled him in his
coach, one time; and another time, he and some others were
upon the same attempt in Hyde-park; they hoping to escape
by their horse-heels, having filed the hinges of a gate so small
that it would yield at first offer: and that he knew all their
plots, and how long they have been about it, and how that he
was to have 1500l. paid him as soon as he had done the feat, by
the appointment of one Sexby, who is now with Charles Stuart. (fn. 9)
This Sexby was a colonel in the Parliament's army, and one of
Overton's party, who should have surprised General Monk in
Scotland; all persons very much discontented. Sexby was
once an adjutator.
It is said further, that there were 1600l. to be given by the
King of Spain to one of them, for betraying an English garrison.
There is more at the bottom of this plot than we know of.
It seems there are six more of the plotters discovered, and
it is found, that this Quartermaster (Cinderton, (fn. 10) I think his
name is) had one hundred good horses in town, not above
two at a stable, for what purpose time will experience. This
will make work for the High Court of Justice. It was high
time to erect one. They are all Levellers, (fn. 11) and discontented
persons, as I hear.