Friday, April 24, 1657.
Out of the Journal.
Resolved, that it be recommended to the council to offer it
to his Highness the Lord Protector, that his Highness will be
pleased to grant a privy seal to the Commissioners of his
Highness's Treasury, to pay unto Edward Birkhead, Esq.
the Serjeant-at-arms attending the Parliament, the sum of 240l.
in discharge of a Bill hereunto annexed, for his disbursements
for the service of the Parliament, and their Committees; and
for the payment of fourteen servants attending the House, and
the several Committees, from the 17th of December, 1656, to
the 17th March following. And likewise thereby authorizing
the said Commissioners of the Treasury, from time to time, to
pay unto the said Serjeant-at-arms, what shall be due unto
him for his allowances, respectively and proportionably, for
the future, during the sitting of the Parliament.
Ordered, that the Bill for the payment of tythes shall be
read upon Monday next. (fn. 1)
I came in late.
Sir Richard Onslow moved, that a petition might be read
for one Mrs. Bickley and Francis Burghill, touching an
indictment against them for lodging one Hooper, for coining,
The humble petition of Anne Bickley, and Francis Burghill, was read.
Resolved, that a Bill be brought in by Sir Richard Onslow,
for pardoning the petitioners for treason, as in the petition is
desired. (fn. 2)
Mr. Bond moved, that the mace might be sent for the
judges and the lawyers, and if they come not without delay,
that the House should reprove them.
There was no question upon this, but by the direction of
the Speaker, the serjeant went out with the mace. Lord
Chief Justice came in, immediately before the mace.
Mr. Solicitor Ellis came in, which was the first time he
was here since the sad accident of his leg broken. Sir Thomas Pryde (fn. 3) came in the other day.
The order of the day was read.
The House resumed the debate upon the first of the papers
The Speaker opened it, and said, you left the debate about
taking off tryers.
The fifth clause in the paper being read, about appointing
and naming members of the other House, in case of death or
Colonel Philip Jones moved, that it might be explained,
that his Highness shall name those members in such cases.
Mr. Godfrey moved, that the former debate about additions
to the question might not be passed over; being a business
of weight, it ought to be cleared.
Mr. Thistlethwdite seconded that motion.
Sir Richard Onslow. This being left unexplained, it
standing as a directory, the chief magistrate may appoint
tryers, if you appoint none; and so there shall be a fine upon the
members, and tryers too. I desire that it may be expressed
what it shall be, instead of tryers, on what behalf.
Major Audley. I move to know, whether you will take
off your vote to adjourn, that I may speak more freely to this
question: otherwise I cannot speak to it.
Mr. Nathaniel Bacon. That which is moved is very
material; for it puts things into a loose way, and leaves the
chief magistrate to choose, and leave what part of the Petition
he likes. I would have this done (as the best way) by articulus super chartas, which is a safe way. But as it is moved, I
cannot, with a safe conscience, consent to let loose the debate
into the parts of the Petition and Advice.
Mr. Speaker moved, that it would be better to bring it in
by way of coherence, after the Bill is brought in, yet it was
Resolved, that the penalty mentioned in the last vote yesterday, shall be instead of the Bill appointed to be brought
in, for commissioners to be triers in that behalf. (fn. 4)
The debate began about the nomination of the members of
the other House.
Mr. Bond. The chief magistrate is fittest to name those
members, and the House to approve. There was such a
clause at the Isle of Wight, that the king should not have
liberty to bring in Lords at his pleasure. (fn. 5) When the Earl of
Stratford's trial was, the king took twelve lord's sons out of
this House, and made them barons, (fn. 6) purposely to overpower
the rest, which the Lords took ill.
Mr. Secretary. Comparing the beginning and the latter
end of the article, you may clear it without a vote; and only
declare, that it is your intention, that as to this doubt, the nomination shall be in the chief magistrate.
Colonel Philip Jones agreed, that such explanation would
serve the turn, without a vote.
Mr. Godfrey. I never understood that was the declared
and known sense of the House. Though you give the nomination to the now chief magistrate, out of the present confidence you have of the single person, that does not follow,
that the single person should name them still. The recommendations of great persons are equivalent to commands.
This will be the way to set up another House quite contrary
to the interest of the House of Commons. You intend them
a balance, a medium between the House and the single person. Otherwise, of necessity, they must adhere to the interest of the single person, and so cease to be that balance and
medium that they were intended for.
Resolved, that the House doth declare that the nomination
of the persons to supply the place of such members of the other
House as shall die, or be removed, shall be by the chief magistrate. (fn. 7)
Major-General Goffe moved to explain also, who shall approve of these persons, which was doubtful in the article,
which only relates to admitting them; but nothing was done.
The sixth clause in the paper being read, about ascertaining
Mr. Godfrey moved that the article to which this refers
might be read.
Mr. Bacon. Suppose his Highness did but only put this
to us, to take care for the future. It cannot be done in this,
but there must be a Bill for this purpose. I desire it may be
left to the Committee.
Mr. Speaker agreed it was not fit to insert it here, but
in a particular Bill; and that the same might be referred to
a Committee, as also that of temporary supplies.
The Master of the Rolls. First agree upon the general
heads, how the revenue shall arise; as the excise, customs, and public revenue, and then the Committee may
reduce this to form and certainty, and make it handsome.
Mr. Noel. Your present revenue is; most of it out of
trade, which is uncertain: this will fail you, if you lay too
great a force upon trade. I may compare it to a cow, that
may give a great deal of milk, if she be well fed and tenderly
used, and none offer violence to her, lest she hold up her
milk. And to this purpose, I desire that you would look
into what the revenue comes to, and debate it in a Grand
Committee, how to make this up, and how to ascertain it.
Mr. T—. (fn. 8) This business is not ripe for a Grand
Committee, or any other Committee. If you please, say that
you have already Bills prepared for raising this revenue, and
you have declared it, you will raise such a revenue. Likewise, for the additional charge, and for the carrying on the
Spanish war, you have declared to raise 400,000l., and you
have Bills in readiness, and you have put it in a way, and
shall prosecute it effectually and readily.
Sir Richard Onslow. There is but 1,300,000l. paid, and
the charge comes to 1,900,000l. This is the full charge, if
it may not be retrenched as to the charge of the army. You
have provided for the Spanish war till October next, by
the 400,000l., and it may be, in the meantime, that it may
cease. For that of continuing the 600,000l. for some time,
I shall not speak to the time; but, if you think fit, a land
tax may be laid for that, which will come to 50,000l. per mensem, in England, Scotland, and Ireland. I shall leave that
of the time to your further consideration.
Mr. Thistlethwaite. It is your silence makes me stand up.
It is a very unacceptable service, the business of raising
money. I could wish that the Government might be so sweetened, that, if it were possible, no land-tax might go along
with it. But since it must be, one time or other, I desire
you would take up the debate for continuing 50,000l. per
mensem, to make up the 600,000l. per annum, and for as
short a time as may be.
Mr. Speaker. That about 600,000l. is in another paper,
so comes not within the debate upon this article.
Colonel Philip Jones. But it is an explanation of that
article, so, proper enough to this debate.
Sir William Strickland. I am sorry to hear any land-tax
mentioned here. The people would never have chosen us,
if they had thought we would have ever moved that. Nothing is so like to blast your settlement, as a land-tax.
Pardon me if I speak confusedly: any man will justify my
distraction in this. If we must have a land-tax, let us not
lay it, till we have necessity. We have laid long enough
under a land-tax. We must sell our lands to the Spaniards,
who have golden mines. I desire a Committee may find
out some other way, and would rather have it by the old way
Mr. Nathaniel Bacon. This is providing supplies over
the heads of another Parliament. We have made general
provision already, by additions to the land-tax, and by the
Bill for the buildings, (fn. 9) which will raise a good sum. This
will serve this year.
Mr. Godfrey. It is needful for you to make a further enquiry into the cause for this additional sum, upon a bare
proposal from without doors. The dangerousness of the con
sequence ought to be considered, to take your rise barely
from the paper recommended by his Highness; upon no
other ground or foundation to raise such a sum, without
looking into the state of your affairs. A very ill precedent,
that a single person hereafter may come with such proposals.
So he moved, not to proceed upon this debate, ex concesso,
but to order a Committee to examine the state of the revenue and the charge.
Mr. Croke. I am much of that gentleman's opinion, not
to spend the people's money, and not know how. But we
have had both the charge and the revenue already before us,
and it does appear that it surmounts the present revenue of
1,300,000l., by the sum proposed, 600,000l. They that proposed this, without a land-tax, know how to raise it. For that
of the sum to be added, haply, another way may be found
out. But now that you have declared you will raise such a
sum, the engagement lies upon the nation to do it one way or
Altum silentium for a good while.
Mr. Cary. I speak to the order of your proceedings.
First, agree to the sum, and the time certain, and then agree
to the manner how you will raise it. And, if you please, I
shall propose the sum may be 600,000l., and the time to continue for three years.
Colonel Philip Jones. This is not a thing that is new.
You know what is your charge and the revenue. You have
had it in debate, and considered by Committees. If you
please to put the question either for 50,000l. per mensem, or
600,000l. per annum, all comes to one; and for the time and
the manner of raising, you may consider it afterwards.
Mr. Godfrey. A word to your question; that the penning
of the question may not leave it as a standing rule, that,
600,000l. per annum shall be always the temporary supplies.
So I would have it expressed, for the present occasion, and
not under the title of temporary supplies.
Mr. Bodurda. It should not be expressed as temporary
supplies, but as for the present occasion, and so long as the
Parliament shall think fit.
Mr. Fowell. It should be rather expressed at 50,000l. per
mensem, than at 600,000l. per annum; and the first month to
begin at Midsummer next, and to continue till the next Parliament.
Colonel Briscoe. I know there is occasion for supplies;
but would have it first enquired in a Parliamentary way what
the charge is, and what the revenue.
Mr. Bacon. I am against the words "present supplies,"
for we have provided for the present charge already.
Mr. Bampfield. I think it is strange, that men should be
so soon satisfied about this additional sum. There was a
great debate before the other sum of 1,300,000l. was granted.
It will maintain 40,000 men, as was moved then. There
was no more demanded, and one argument was affirmed by
more than one, and granted by many, that that was the reason why this should be settled in perpetuity. Because the
present charge upon us is double; I must take this for
granted, those things are clear to the House. Again, this is
clearly against what you have resolved, as to the power of
Parliament. If you call Parliaments by the Triennial Bill,
another shall be in September next; or if you go by the Instrument, it will be in October.
I would have no more voted. This proceeds from a distrust of Parliaments. We shall be an honourable Parliament,
and yet be trusted with nothing. If there be a real necessity,
no doubt but Parliaments will provide, and have done it, but
not according to the lusts of the supreme magistrate. There
is nothing in this but sic volo.
This is not the way to settlement, to lay such a yoke upon
the people as our forefathers never had. People will study
to have their necks from under the yoke. I think you have
granted too much already. This is the way to lay Parliaments low. If the late king had had such an army, we had
had another family, and the Long Parliament had never done
what they did. This is my greatest grief that you have done
as to this, more than ever that did.
Mr. Trevor. You have voted this in effect, only you have
not ascertained it; which his Highness now proposeth that
you would make certain. I hope there is no such danger of
laying Parliament low, or bringing in another family, or the
like of those things that that gentleman moved.
Resolved, that as to the making certain of the revenue of
1,300,000l. per annum, the House hath already put it into a
way: and shall effectually prosecute that way to make it certain and effectual.
Resolved, that the sum to be raised for temporary supplies,
shall be 600,000l. a-year, for such time as the Parliament
The proposals about account to be given by the Treasurers
Mr. Bacon. I desire you will put that, and there will be
no negative upon it.
Mr. Speaker. I hope you will have your Treasurers receive it first, before they account.
Lord Whtilock. It is fit your Treasurers should account,
and it is for their ease, that receive your monies, to be acquitted. But, as yet, you have not directed how your money
shall issue. As thus, that there shall no more money but
300,000l. be paid to the Government, and 1,000,000l. to the
forces; and the temporary supplies to be issued out, as you
think fit to declare.
Mr. Godfrey. To the order of your proceedings. Naturally you ought to debate for what time the sums you have
voted shall continue. I would not have you look over a Parliament, if you have any certainty to judge by, for your next
Parliaments. It is not fit to keep two directories a foot for
Government. If I knew a rule for it, I would move that
this might not altogether be in the clouds. Express it to continue till next Triennial Parliament. (fn. 11) If it be left indefinitely
till the next Parliament, it is a fair way to put it in the power
of your chief magistrate never to have Parliaments. I know
not what to propose in this, in regard of this uncertainty, but
shall offer that it may continue for a year, at which time your
next Parliament shall be called. I know no other way.
The Master of the Rolls. You have voted 600,000l. per
annum, and you had my yea to it, and I think I shall bear
my share with others, for are we not all liable to our common
calamity? I cannot see but there is a necessity for the maintenance of those men that keep us in quiet, yet it is a great
temptation (and the best men may fall under it), that the leaving this revenue, without a certain time, may be a means to
keep off Parliaments. If I had a sword, I confess I should
not lay it by till I needs must, and, if there be necessity for
an army, there is a necessity for a pay; and the question
will be, whether we shall give it, or they take it. While
there are such discontented persons abroad, and a family of
Pretenders, no doubt but there will be a necessity to continue
this sum for a little time, that the pretence may be forgotten.
You may name two or three years. We cannot hope it, by
human reason, that in four or five years it can be done. I
thought when I first came into that chair (fn. 12) that we should
have been quiet within a year. I would not have this continuance of the sum relate to the calling of the next Parliament;
but for such a time as by human probability, a year, or two,
or three, as you please. If it were in my power, I would not
have the army disbanded till we were in probability to be
quiet, that we might have comfort in them, and they in us.
I think in four years time it cannot but be probable we shall
be quiet. If you please to make it for one, two, or three
years, I shall agree, but I would not have it to begin till
Mr. Berkley seconded that motion, that the time for the
continuance of this sum might be for four years, and not to
commence till Michaelmas next.
Lord Broghill. Now you have settled the sum, you are
debating the time, and the question is, whether to limit it to
a certain time, or to the next Parliament. The last is uncertain; for in making of laws, we should always provide as if
men would be bad. It is a great temptation to the chief magistrate, in whose power it only is to call a Parliament; so that
that is inconvenient. And if you limit the calling of a Parliament to a day, you cannot call a Parliament in the interim, be
the necessity never so great. I shall rather adhere to the other
motion, that it may continue, for at least four years. If it
were five years, there were no danger, for it is from the people's purses and they are still masters of their own monies if
any to spare. But I differ as to the time of the commencement,
and would have it to commence at Midsummer. It is the beginning of a Government, and it is fit some time should be
given till it be settled.
Mr. Bacon. You should give the people some breath, especially seeing they expect it as your promise; and as to the
time of continuance, I should think it were too long, but I
shall leave that to the debates; the summer charge being already provided for.
Sir Richard Onslow. I have as much reason to plead against
taxes as any man, considering the burthen upon the county,
for which I serve; but seeing there is a necessity for it, I shall
not be against it. That is a mistake in those that say the
summer charge is provided for: it is only provided till Midsummer next, so I would have it commence at Midsummer
next, and to continue for three years, and no longer. As to
that of limiting of it to the meeting of the next Parliament,
there may be much uncertainty in that, for the law does not
call it a Parliament, unless a Bill be passed in it.
Mr. Croke. I move that it may be four years, as it was
first moved by a judicious person, (fn. 13) whose interest is considerable in the nation, and who knows the state of affairs.
Sir John Hobart. The revenues you have settled will
maintain a very great army, and a great fleet; and though the
charge surmount that sum for the present, yet in three years
time, it may be hoped, that there may not be so much occasion for so great a force. Let us be as good husbands for the
people as we can. We doubt not but Parliaments will come,
that will have as much tenderness, and sense of the necessities,
if such shall be.
Sir John Reynolds. You are now reducing all your cause,
that has been contended for, to a settlement, and trusting future Parliaments with the whole. I would have it considered,
if it were not fit to let one Parliament be over, before you take
off the charge. So I humbly move that it may be for four
Major-General Howard. The greater sum ought to be put
first, but I am for the lesser. You may continue it for five or
six years. It will discontent the people, to lay it on longer
than needs must, but rather leave it to the care of future Parliaments.
Mr. Thistlethwaite moved, that the words "and no longer,"
might be added to the question.
General Montagu. I move that you would wave the putting
the question for four years, and put it for the lesser time;
which would give the people greater satisfaction, and, no
doubt, but future Parliaments will take care for the temporary supplies; and in the meantime, it may please God, we
may come to a better settlement.
Resolved, that this charge shall begin from Midsummer
Resolved, that this charge of 600,000l. a-year shall
continue for three years, from Midsummer next, and no
longer. (fn. 14)
Colonel Jones and Sir Charles Wolseley moved that we
might sit in the afternoon.
Mr. Bond. I am against the motion. Rather enjoin your
members to be here in the morning.
Lord Cochrane moved to sit in the afternoon.
Sir Richard Onslow seconded that motion.
Lord Broghill also moved to adjourn the debate till three
in the afternoon, and so it was
Resolved, that this debate be adjourned till three of the
clock this afternoon. (fn. 15)
The House rose at one.
Dr. Clarges moved, that the House being thin, the Bill for
Gloucester, ingrossed, might be read. The clerk was going
to read the ingrossed Bill for Carlisle market, but the order
of the day was called for, which was read.
The House resumed the debate adjourned in the morning.
Colonel Jones. There is only wanted your sense upon that
clause about issuing out and accounting for monies.
Mr. Secretary. I think, this done, you are over all, but
that about the Spanish war, which, if you please, you may
answer thus: that you have already declared 400,000l. to
be raised for that war, and that you have put it in a way of
raising; and what is further necessary you will raise it.
Captain Blackwell. His Highness was pleased to desire
to know what further sum you would raise for carrying on
the Spanish war.
Mr. Speaker declared, and such was the sense of the House,
that the further sum did relate only to the 600,000l., and not
to the Spanish war.
Mr. Godfrey. Though you will not proceed to the raising
of the sum of 600,000l. presently, you may generally declare
how you will raise it, what part by a land-tax. Otherwise, it
seems to be granted, that this additional sum must be raised
by a land-tax. Therefore, for the satisfaction of the nation,
you should declare that, so far as the standing revenue will
reach, you will not think of a land-tax.
Sir Richard Onslow. There is no doubt that we shall go the
best way to work we can, to raise this money, with the most
ease of the people. But, by that rule, he will continue
60,000l. a month upon us; whereas, I hope, we shall do it
Resolved, that the answer to his Highness, as to the clause
touching the Spanish war, shall be,
That the Parliament doth declare, that, for the carrying on
of that war, they have voted to raise 400,000l., and have prepared several Bills for the raising thereof. (fn. 16)
The other debate was upon the clause about issuing and
accounting for the monies.
Mr. Speaker. I hope you intend not to charge the Commissioners of the treasury with more than they received, as was
moved to you in the morning, by an honourable person not
Mr. Fowell. Though all the revenue be not brought into
the way of the Exchequer, yet certainly it is the best and
surest way. They are men of estates, and I believe the Commonwealth lost above a million of monies by those other ways
Resolved, that the monies directed to be for supply of the
sea and land forces, be issued by advice of the Council; and
that the Treasurer, or Commissioners for the Treasury, be
obliged to give an account of all the money to every Parliament, (fn. 17)
The clause about approving the judges was read.
Mr. Godfrey moved, that the monies for the temporary supplies might be added to the vote to be issued, and accounted
for as aforesaid.
Major Brooke. There can be no harm in the words "temporary supplies," if they be added.
Colonel Jones. If it be employed for the forces by sea and
land, what need of further explanation.
Resolved, that this House doth declare that the officers of
state, and judges, on the 9th article mentioned, shall be
chosen in the intervals of Parliament, by the consent of the
Council, to be afterwards approved by Parliament. (fn. 18)
Mr. Bampfield moved, that there might be added to that
question, "and of the army," that they might also be approved of, as well as other officers of the state. (fn. 19)
Mr. Speaker either did not or would not understand this
motion. (fn. 20)
The clause of the 13th article was read, about disabling
Cavaliers from trust.
Mr. Bond. This will be hard, to lay a penalty upon them,
for in the Long Parliament we made them sheriffs, and, if
they refused, they were fined.
Sir William Strickland. If a man lose his office, it is punishment enough. The fault is as much in those that put in
such officers, as in them that accept it.
Mr. Fowell. The Cavaliers will thank you for it, if you
disable them from all places of trust. They labour to shun
bearing offices, as sheriffs, constables, jurors, churchwardens,
overseers, &c. Surely you will have it only extend to offices
of profit and trust.
Mr. Speaker. It should only extend to such as seek offices,
or have profit by them. If it be extended to all offices of
trust, you will have neither sheriffs nor constables.
Colonel Jones and Lord Whitlock moved, that a Committee
might be appointed to bring in a Bill for disabling such officers, and for laying a penalty.
Mr. Bampfield moved, that it might be referred to the
same Committee to bring in this Bill, that were appointed
for that purpose three or four months since.
The clerk read the question, both as to offices of profit and
Mr. Speaker excepted against it, and said he could put no
such question. But finding the sense of the House, that they
would have it so, it was no further insisted upon by him.
But he would fain have had the word "profit" left out, yet
he put that afterwards to the question; viz. the word
Resolved, that it be referred to a Committee, to bring in a
Bill upon the 13th article, for imposing a fine or penalty
upon such as shall exercise any office of trust or profit contrary to this article. (fn. 21)
The clause about manners, and loose persons, was read.
Mr. Speaker said there was a Bill appointed to be brought
in, in November last, that would give an answer to this.
Mr. Bampfield. The Bill was ready some months since,
but other business thrust it out.
Sir William Strickland. Certainly this work is very requisite, and abundance of loose persons are about town; At
Piccadilly; (fn. 22) and other nurseries of vice.
Sir Charles Wolseley. A general answer to his Highness,
in this case, will be sufficient, that you are preparing several
Bills as to the reformation of manners.
Major-General Goffe. Such a general answer will be best.
As to manners, you have a Bill against drunkenness (fn. 23) and the
like, and also about manners, &c. And for the laws, you
have several Bills prepared, as that for the probate of wills,
and for registers, (fn. 24) and for petty actions, &c., which, with
some amendments, may be good laws.
Some laughed at this, when they heard him mention that
Sir John Hobart. There should be added to that question
the word "proceedings," viz. to regulate the proceedings of
the law; for his Highness said, to regulate the body of the
law would be impracticable.
Lord Whitlock. The law is a just rule, and a regulation
itself. But, if you please, put it for regulating the proceedings of the law.
Mr. Secretary. There are some laws that ought to be regulated; as divers statutes that are mischievous. I desire
that the word "proceedings" may also be added.
Mr. Pedley. To regulate the proceedings of the law, is as
much as you can do; for you cannot regulate the law itself,
unless you take it away.
The Master of the Rolls. There is need of regulation in
the laws, as well as in the proceedings. I was turned out of
what I had been in possession of for three hundred years.
A man shall be turned out of his possession in a month's
time, and never know how, by giving a declaration the latter
end of the term. This they call expedition.
Lord Strickland. I am glad to hear that gentleman
move to regulate the law. I wish he would put us in a
way to regulate, not only the law, but the proceedings of
He grew a little angry.
Colonel Jones. If we launch into such a debate, we shall
never have done. You have already passed a vote, and no
man can, without leave, speak against it.
Mr. Bampfield. I shall instance in two famous cases, as
to the abuse of the proceedings of the law in granting Certioraris upon criminal indictment; one for incest, another for
barratry, (fn. 25) both removed and quashed for error.
Resolved, that as to the point of reformation of manners,
and also for the effectual execution of the good laws already
made, for the punishment of vice, and for regulation of the
laws and proceedings in the law, the House is preparing
several Bills, and will present them to his Highness in due
time. (fn. 26)
The clause about the non-alienating the revenue, was read.
Mr. Speaker and Lord Whitlock. If you tie it up so that
the public revenue shall not be alienated, you exclude all persons from having their estates out of sequestration, that have
paid in one moiety, and know not where to pay in their other
moiety. I desire this may be referred to a Committee to
bring in a Bill to this purpose.
The Master of the Rolls. I would not have you tie up
the chief magistrate's hands, that he can give no reward I
think his Highness rather aimed to show his care of the public revenue, than so generally to be tied up.
Mr. Fowell. This clause will be most proper to be inserted in the Bills for settling the revenue.
Sir William Strickland. Refer it to a Committee to take
that into consideration, who may meet with both ends, that
neither the chief magistrate may be too strictly tied up, that
he can dispose of nothing; nor the revenue be altered, but by
Mr. Speaker. I knew a gentleman of Yorkshire, that paid in
his 300l. into the Treasury, for his composition; and, indeed,
we cannot discharge Ms sequestration. So he must petition
his Highness to have the monies back again.
Mr. Bodurda moved, that it might; be also declared in
that bill, how the revenue shall be disposed of.
Ordered, that it be referred to a Committee to bring in a
Bill for the preservation of the public revenue, and against
the alienation of it without consent of Parliament. (fn. 27)
The clause about the 16th article, touching the confirmation of Acts and Ordinances, was read.
The Master of the Rolls. If you confirm all the Acts of
the Long Parliament, I doubt some of them may not be for
the advantage of some that sit here; as that Act which declares it treason to set up a single person. (fn. 28) If you please to
appoint a Committee, they may revise all the laws, and in a
short time may prepare an account for you, what is fit to be
Sir William Strickland. Let a Committee be appointed to
review all the ordinances or laws that are under some doubt,
and such as you think fit to continue, that they may have
your seal of authority upon them, as that of marriages;
whereupon I did act awhile, (fn. 29) and afterwards desisted, and
again, out of necessity, acted upon it.
Mr. Thistlethwaite. Let all the acts and ordinances be revised, that such as are fit to be continued may have your authority upon them, and, as to those that are not fit, that
those that haye acted upon them may have indemnity.
Sir John Reynolds offered an expedient, to answer this proposal by a paper in writing.
This paper was tendered, touching, continuing, and confirming several acts and ordinances. (fn. 30)
Mr. Godfrey. I am against receiving any such paper. It
may bring us into a debate. Rather refer it to a Committeeto revise those acts and ordinances, and such as you think fit
put your stamp upon them. Act prudentially and rationally,
yet not to confirm all the laws in a lump; this may be a
remedy worse than the disease.
Sir William Strickland. Let the paper be read. Possibly
it may contain what will answer all objections.
Colonel Jones was against reading the paper.
Mr. Speaker. It is very irregular to bring in such a paper.
It is a bill brought in without order, and undertakes to know
the sense of the House beforehand.
Sir John Reynolds stood up and vindicated his paper, and
said it was not a Bill. He confessed he knew not the order
of the House, nor so well how to serve them in that, as he
may do otherways. (fn. 31)
Mr. Bond. I hope you will never do such a dishonour to
this House. For my part I shall never consent to confirm
any laws elsewhere, and all in a lump. This is to do it at
blind-man's-buff. There were more laws made in that Long
Parliament, than were made since the Conquest.
Mr. Bodurda. Though I honour the gentleman that brought
in the paper, yet I cannot consent that this paper shall he
read. To confirm all these laws in a lump, is as contradictory as the ignorant inland curate's practice was. Upon
strict proclamation that the Common Prayer should be read,
he read over the whole Litany, for fair weather and foul
weather, and gave thanks for both. You confirm the laws
that are flatly opposite, and contradictory, one to another. One
act says you shall have no name but a King; another that
you shall have no name but a Protector; another, for the
Custodes libertatis Angliœ;, (fn. 32) and all those titles must fight for
the pre-eminence, if you put an equal function upon all;
therefore I would have it referred to a Committee to revise
Lord Strickland. Refer it to a Committee, shortly
to revise the laws; some must be confirmed by the lump,
otherwise you draw great inconveniences upon yourselves,
and unsettle things that were done out of pure necessity.
Sir Charles Wolseley. It has been the prudence of all
ages, not to travel into any thing too far, that hath been
done by a power in being de facto, though not de jure. They
were always tender in such cases; for, if the legislature had
not sometimes been undertaken by another power than was
Parliamentary, you had hardly sate here now to make this
settlement. The interest of your best friends depends upon
these Acts and Ordinances. I shall not offer a paper to you,
seeing the former has such an acceptance with you. You
have negatively declared, already, that those Acts and Ordinances shall not be invalidated. I have two or three words to
offer to you, as an expedient for your answer to his Highness
in this case.
The Master of the Rolls. This is as difficult a point as any
that can come before you. Some acts may be injurious in
themselves; these are certainly not fit to be continued. I
would go thus far; that no man shall be impeached for any
thing done upon those laws, by a court or otherwise: nor
would I have any man's estate to be staggered or shaken by
it. You have already declared that they shall stand by their
own strength. I think what that honourable person has
offered will do very well, to refer it to a Committee to consider of that paper; but for us to confirm all in gross, would
be such a scandal upon us as never was.
Sir Richard Onslow. It would draw such a scandal upon
us as never was, to confirm all in the lump. We may make
ourselves all traitors, if we confirm all the whole government
which establishes a Protector; and the last Parliament would
not confirm it but in parts, and that upon serious debate. (fn. 33)
That about the monies of 90,000l. per month sticks much
with me, and I shall never consent to that precedent, that
laws shall be made without doors, and confirmed here,
though the first paper seemed to assert the rights of the
people in making of laws. But if we should swallow such
hooks, it would be that which posterity would never claw off.
Mr. Speaker. Both the papers are irregular, and the
latter desires in one part more than the former, for it would
have all the laws confirmed that were made since 42. To inform you of this is my duty.
Sir Charles Wolseley said, he would submit to their orders;
they knew them better than he. Yet he thought the paper
was brought in regularly, for that the House gave him leave
to read it. Nor does that positively confirm any of them, but
only says that they shall not be invalidated.
Lord Whitlock. That gentleman (fn. 34) that said more laws were
made in the Long Parliament than since the Conquest, is mistaken, for there were more made in Edward III.'s time;
and laws made by the Lords and Commons in the infancy of
the king: and yet they continued as laws, and do to this day,
without further confirmation. No doubt but any man may
offer a paper in a debate, as to what his sense is, as to an expedient in any doubt. I desire the paper may be read, and
referred to a Committee to bring in a clause to this purpose.
Mr. Speaker. It is true any man may offer a paper in a
debate, but not such an one as may determine the debate, or
divert you upon new matter.
Resolved, that this paper shall be read.
The said paper was read accordingly.
Another paper was tendered, touching the Acts and Ordinances made since 1642.
Resolved, that this paper be read.
The said paper was read accordingly (fn. 35)
Colonel Jones affirmed the papers were not irregularly
Mr. Godfrey. The papers were irregularly offered, for
you have been twice diverted from what was the subjectmatter of the debate. You were about appointing a Committee, and both those papers, under presumption of an
expedient, have quite driven you out of the way.
Mr. Secretary. I shall not oppose my opinion to yours, as
to the orders of the House, but I conceive neither of the
papers were very irregularly offered; for in any debate, any
gentleman may offer his sense, either in writing or by word
of mouth, such as he in his judgment thinks may accommodate the debate. It is true, as to the matter there are great
objections on both sides, but I would not have us make more
scruples than need.
To confirm all those laws at a lump, it is true, looks a little
strange; but I see no great evil, if we say we do confirm such,
till the Parliament shall repeal them.
Settlement lies much in the minds of men; and to leave
things doubtful, there will be as much danger on the other
hand, that all that has been done in these times of trouble,
&c. may seem to be left loose upon a doubtful bottom, as
well as if we should confirm them all at blind-man's-buff.
What shall become of your public sales, and your securities for your debts; the act for marriages; all the adventurers of Ireland, and securities of their estates, and arrears
of your soldiery there, if all these be shaken ? These are
considerable bodies. To raise doubts in their minds may be
exceeding ill. All your confiscations and compositions, both
in Scotland and England, may be called for again.
I would have you as careful in penning the clause as may
be, but not wholly to leave these things at a loose. This
sticks with his Highness.
Major-General Goffe. His Highness, you intend, shall
take an oath to govern according to the laws, and yet he shall
not know what are laws, or what are not; he is sworn to
those as laws, and yet you will not account them laws, and
the judges scruple them, and yet he is sworn to maintain
them. You put a very hard thing upon him, and his minister too, that you make it not plain and clear what those laws
shall be. Therefore, I desire that, for his Highnesses satisfaction. It will be a very great block in his way, in order
to this you desire of him, if you make not this thing clear and
Major-General Whalley. I would not refer it to a Committee to revise your laws; for if I were not a friend to your
settlement, I could debate every act and every clause in
them, and so delay your business; so as you shall never
come to pass this Petition and Advice.
I believe we all agree to come to settlement, and in all the
things contained in the Instrument, except that of the title,
and for my part, rather than I would forego the other good
things contained in it, I could well swallow that of the title.
And therefore, as a friend to your furtherance, I shall
offer a more expeditious way; that is, to refer the papers to a
Sir William Strickland moved, that a Committee might be
appointed to review those acts and ordinances, and, likewise,
that those two papers may be referred to that Committee.
Colonel Jones. If this will not lay in your way to this settlement, I desire it may be referred to a Committee to revise
the laws. Otherwise, I desire you would only refer the
Mr. Bond. I am as much a friend to settlement as any
man, yet I would not, for all the settlements in the world, do
an unjust thing. I cannot consent to confirm any thing at a
lump, without viewing and examining any particulars.
I had that from a very reverend judge of your own making,
that more laws were made in the Long Parliament than since
the Conquest. (fn. 36)
I am for referring the whole debate to a Committee, but
not the papers.
Mr. Secretary moved, that the papers might be referred also
to the Committee.
Mr. Bampfield. There needs no confirmation of any of the
Acts or Ordinances of the Long Parliament. They are able
to stand upon their own strength. For that of marriages, (fn. 37) if
you confirm that, you destroy many hundreds of inheritances.
Not one marriage in one hundred is made, in every particular, pursuant to that Act, as to the publication (fn. 38) and all
other circumstances; nor were scarce any of the registers
appointed within the time limited; and if it varied in the least
point, all is void.
As to that of the settlement of the adventurers of Ireland,
and those lands in Scotland, those ordinances need no further
confirmation than is expressed in the article to that purpose
which confirms all acts and ordinances for the sale or dissolution of any lands.
And for those ordinances made by his Highness and the
Council, it were better to reduce them all into one act, and so
confirm them; rather than, in this way of blind-man's-buff,
confirm you know not what, and likewise things that, in themselves, are quite contradictory. And if you do confirm them,
it will be like that man who confirmed it before he knew it,
for, if he had known it, he would never have confirmed it.
I desire that the papers may not be referred, but that a
Committee be appointed to revise them, and see what is fit to
be continued, and what fit to be repealed.
Ordered, that the matter of this present debate, touching
an answer to be given to his Highness, upon what is by him
offered as to the 16th article, be referred to a Committee, to
consider thereof, and offer something to the House therein,
viz. to Sir Charles Wolseley and Colonel Jones, (and fortyfour more,) to meet to-morrow morning at seven, in the
Speaker's Chamber. (fn. 39)
The House rose at seven, and the debate was adjourned till
to-morrow morning at eight.