Friday, June 5, 1657.
A great debate about Lord Broghill's Bill. (fn. 1)
Mr. Highland, Major-General Kelsey, and Colonel Mat
thews moved against it. They would have our debts paid
rather than give those large gratuities. The Long Parliament
gave large gifts indeed. It was great justice and honour to
relieve the oppressed.
Colonel Jones, Lord Whitlock, Sir Richard Onslow, Mr.
Waller. (fn. 2)
Colonel Castle. I cannot but observe the great zeal of this
House in private business, and so careless of the public. I
therefore move that no private debts may be paid till the
public are satisfied.
Colonel Sydenham. If you went to take measure by the
noble lord's merit, there would be no negative upon it. It is
but losing your time to reckon up that; but in this case it is
of a dangerous consequence. From the private report of a
member, to take it up that this which was set out, falls short
of what was given, and to give 400l. more, will lay your reputation very low. But if you will lay "a signal testimony " (fn. 3)
upon the head of this person, and do it by a particular act, I
shall not be against it, but not to take it as a debt upon you.
Mr. Bond moved to have the 400l. added to it.
Mr. Moody and Colonel White were against taking it up
upon trust, and would have it go as a mark of favour to him.
Mr. Secretary. It is clearly to be admitted that this noble
person well deserves your favour, much more your justice. It
is urged it will be an ill precedent. You were pleased to
refer a petition of the same nature for the officers in Ireland,
where the lands fall short, and order that they should have
satisfaction. The same reason remaining, the same law remains. If there was a mistake in setting forth those lands, no
reason he should suffer.
The Master of the Rolls. This land was given by way of
composition and agreement with this noble lord and the Long
Parliament. It is not a thing of recompense or gratuity, but
a duty to him, and we thought we made a good bargain. He
stuck to us when we were in great distress; all Our party had
no one but he and a colonel in my eye, viz. Jephson. He
well deserves it both in point of right and justice.
Major Morgan. I would not have the state over-reached,
neither Would I have you fall short of what is right, and of
the justice you ought to do to this noble person.
Lord Lambert. I am not against the thing, but against the
manner of it. I would rather have it referred to a Committee
to bring in a clause or proviso, on Tuesday next, that you
may be well informed.
Major-General Jephson. I find that when you are upon
acts of private justice, you are always minded that you neglect
the public. I wish those gentlemen's memories would serve
them to tell it you some other lime. I hear nobody but acknowledges this honourable person's merit; only the difference
is, some would pay him with good words, others would give
him just satisfaction. I know this noble lord's condition, in
this thing, as well as any man. This land was once under as
good improvement as ever it was since the world began, but it
was overrun, and the surveyors had no friendship for him.
There was hardship in setting out the lands.
Mr. Disbrowe. So the thing be done, put what mark you
please upon it; but he very well deserves it at your hands.
He maintained two regiments at his own charge, and suffered
much for you. I believe it will appear that the surveyors did
it in knavery, because Lord Brogbill would not give the surveyors a sum of money; and the high sheriff will certify that
the lands are over-valued.
Major-General Whalley. This person is one that all the
House has a great respect for, and if a negative should be put
upon it, it would not well please you. I therefore move that
it be referred to be opened, upon the whole debate.
Lord Lambert. The House is not seised of a proviso till
the gentleman that brought it in shall read it. I move that
he may read it, and then debate it.
Sir Charles Wolseley. I brought in the proviso, and it
will not be Parliamentary for me now to read it, after it has
been upon your table and admitted in debate. Yet if you
please to command me, I shall read.
Colonel Jones. It is not a standing order that a proviso
shall always be read by the person that brought it in; so that
he did but open it. I move that the question may be put
to read it, and I hope that there will not be many negatives
The question was put accordingly, and passed in the affirmative; but Lord Lambert, Fleetwood, Sydenham, and
Disbrowe, were withdrawn.
The proviso was read a second time. It was to add "two
thousand acres of forfeited profitable land, Irish plantation
measure," to the lands already set out.
Major Aston. I am sorry that I must move against this.
I, therefore, would have it committed, for that those lands
are already settled by Act of Parliament upon some poor widows and orphans; unless there be some other provision made
Major-General Jephson. I move that it be committed, to
examine this, and it will appear that those widows are otherwise provided for. Otherwise, I am confident, that lord
would never have desired it.
Colonel Matthews. I move against the commitment of this
proviso; for, by the same rule, all that have served you in
their capacities, as every man here has done, may challenge a
full satisfaction. Why should we not do this to every body.
It is the desire of my soul to be guided by a spirit of righteousness. I speak it in that spirit. Shall I, after I have purchased land, go and say it falls short ? Shall the party that I
bought it from, return me what it falls short ? The case is
the same; the precedent is dangerous.
Mr. Trevor. There will be no danger of this precedent.
I believe it may rather appear that lands elsewhere were undervalued, rather than overvalued, as that which is returned
at 500l. may be worth 2,000l. But in this case it is clear
that it falls short 300l. I would have it committed for the
reason that the other gentlemen offered, lest one act fight with
another. Scarce one precedent will be found that the surveys
are rather under than over.
Major-General Haines. I move that this clause may be
committed; but not to have that clause left out which relates
to further satisfaction; and let it stand as for his faithful service, &c. Consider what the particulars are that you do give.
Mr. Highland. I would have it well examined what you
do in this case. Hasty proceedings are not for your honour.
You will have a great many more that will desire your justice, as well as he. You must not respect persons. I perceive
this land is otherwise disposed of. It is much that 1000l. in
arrear should be in so short a time to one person. I move
that the clause may not be committed.
The question being put, that this proviso be committed,
Mr. Speaker declared for the Yeas. Colonel Matthews for
the Noes. The House was divided. The Yeas went out.
Yeas 85. Colonel Jones and Mr. Thelwall, Tellers.
Noes 41. Colonel Welden and Colonel Matthews, Tellers.
So it passed in the affirmative. The clause was committed
accordingly; and the debate upon the Bill was adjourned
until Wednesday morning.
Mr. Godfrey moved, that there might be a stop made to
private satisfaction; and a day appointed, when the Report
for the Public Faith (fn. 4) might be made, and that effectually.
Major-General Jephson and The Master of the Rolls seconded that motion, and that it might be on Wednesday next.
Dr. Clarges and Colonel Chadwick moved to second that
motion, and that it cried loud to the House for justice.
They were appointing this afternoon for the Committee
to meet, but Captain Baynes stood up, and acquainted the
House that the Grand Committee for the Customs desired to
sit this afternoon. All that come to "the Committee touching the Public Faith, to have voices." (fn. 5)
Per motion of Captain Baynes and Colonel Jones,
Resolved, that the Grand Committee do sit this afternoon
upon the Bill for Customs. (fn. 6)
Per motion of Mr. Lloyd,
Resolved, that the Bill for the Adventures for Ireland beread to-morrow morning. (fn. 7)
Major-General Whalley. According to your order, your
Committee did attend his Highness, to acquaint him that you
had a Bill of Assessments, and several other Bills, and desired to know when his Highness would pass them. He appointed this day, at eleven o' clock.
This morning he sent for the Committee, and said he had
received a catalogue of the Bills that are to pass. He had
read one of the Bills, and if he should rise at four o' clock in
the morning, he could not read them in a whole day. He,
therefore, desired that the Committee would meet him in the
Fainted Chamber on Wednesday next, at eleven.
Sir Christopher Pack. The Vintners desire longer time for
setting their prices of wine. They are now at your doors,
and desire to be heard upon their Petition.
Dr. Clarges reported from the Committee, to whom the Bill
against New Buildings was referred, the Report upon the
Earl of Bedford's Petition, and the Earl of Clare's; and the
Petition of the City of Westminster.
The Report upon the Earl of Bedford's Petition was first
read. (fn. 8)
The question being put, that the buildings of the Earl of
Bedford shall be exempt out of the penalties of this Bill, (fn. 9)
Mr. Speaker declared for the Noes.
Yeas 44. Mr. Trevor and Sir Richard Onslow, Tellers.
Noes 52. Sir J. Copplestone and Mr. Dunch, Tellers.
So it passed in the negative.
Colonel Sydenham. I move for a proviso, to abate Lord
Bedford something, as a mark of your favour in regard of
his building a church; having paid into the Exchequer
2000l., endowed the church with 100l., and as much to the
poor; and he allows a house for the minister, worth 60l. per
Mr. Trevor moved for 5000l. abatement.
Mr. Secretary moved, that this was too little, and that
there might be 7000l. abated to him.
Sir John Hobart. I second that motion. These buildings
have been chargeable to him, only for ornament sake, and
least profit to him. Such buildings and such a church is the
honour of the nation.
Mr. Moody. I move that he may have a third part abated;
but first see what will come in to you by it.
Mr. Fowell moved, that the 5000l. laid out about the
church might be abated; but for the 2000l. paid into the
Exchequer, it was to purchase a void patent.
Mr. Trenchard seconded the motion. It was always the
method of Parliaments to mix mercy with justice.
Captain Baynes. I see no more equity for my Lord of
Bedford than for others to be abated. If he built the church
it did advance his houses' rents.
Major-General Kelsey. Consider what you will get by it.
It may be this 5000l. may come to a third part; it may be to
a moiety. It may be to all. I would rather have it put upon
a proportion of the fine.
Sir Christopher Pack seconded that motion.
Mr. West. I differ from that gentleman. The sum, we
are well satisfied, will amount to more; and the more certain
you are in such cases, the better. I move that the sum may
be 7000l.; and it was resolved accordingly.
Mr. Fowell. I move that you would express the reasons,
as to the building of the church, and endowing of it, giving to
the poor; otherwise you will draw a greater inconvenience
upon you. Others will expect the same favour.
That question was so penned and put accordingly. (fn. 10)
Lord Lambert. I offer a Petition from one Mr. Hatton, (fn. 11)
of Holborn, to build his house into tenements. He will submit to your fines, as you deal with others in the like nature.
Sir William Strickland seconded that motion.
Colonel Shapcott against that motion. The end was to suppress these nuisances; I therefore move to lay the Petition
aside. But the same was read and committed. (fn. 12)
Mr. Godfrey was contra.
The House rose at two o' clock.