Thursday, February 17, 1658–9.
Mr. Speaker took the chair at nine.
Mr. Cooper prayed.
The order of the day was read that the Accounts from
the Commissioners of the Treasury, Army, Navy, and Admiralty, be brought in.
Mr. Sherwyn, according to the order of the House, did
present an account from the Commissioners of the Treasury,
which was received.
Colonel Sennet likewise presented an account from the
Commissioners of the Army, according to former orders,
which was received.
Colonel Clark likewise brought in an account from the
Commissioners of the Admiralty, which was received.
Mr. Speaker acquainted the House that he had received a
letter from his Highness, directed to the House of Commons.
He supposed it concerned this business.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I move, that this being the first
letter from his Highness, it stay till the House be full. I
farther move to know if the establishment of the Army be
brought in, and a list of the officers, that we may know who
are our protectors. It seems this is not done. It is not
within these gentlemen's survey, but the Muster-Master General's. Dr. Stene (fn. 1) is Commissary of those Musters.
Mr. Scot seconded the motion, and said, they were our
army. Divers officers were dead, and their accounts left unexamined.
He moved that a particular Committee ought not to be
named, but a private Committee was more proper.
Colonel Birch. The letter may give us a great deal of
light. Read that first, and then read the accounts, before
you commit them.
The letter was read, signed R. P., directed to "Our House
Sir William Wheeler was moving something in relation to
the business of the accounts.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge took him down, and said, though he
looked over the letter, and said nothing to it, he had to say
something to it, though with weakness.
Sir William Wheeler took him down, and said: for aught
Sir Arthur knew, he might have spoken to the letter, but
said not a word to it.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge took notice of it, and said: it ought
not to be slightly passed by.
We are come again, for aught I know, to King, Lords,
and Commons, when Kings and Lords were in their height.
Let us be exceeding careful of an ill precedent.
I heard it said yesterday, that an officer said in the head of
his regiment, that his Highness and the other House were
desirous that the army might have their pay, but the Commons were against it. I wish our young Prince may have
good and wise counsel about him, not to advise him to a
breach of the privilege of Parliament. I doubt this is laid
at our doors. Have we not hastened this ?
Was there need of this letter ? The Lord deliver us from
such evil counsellors as King Charles had about him, in the
beginning of the Long Parliament. One ran to court, the
other went with the vote, as soon as ever it passed. (fn. 2) We have
looked upon this as a high thing for a member of this House
to go to dinner at court; but we are all in now; say they.
A word is enough to the wise. For an innocent Prince to
be misled, I am heartily sorry for it. There was no need of
this letter. I pray. God deliver him and us from evil counsellors.
Mr. Secretary. This letter was well intended, and not to
direct you. If any evil counsellers be, let them be known
I am, for my part, here ready to answer any charge. It is
an easy thing to charge in general terms. I was never a soldier, but shall have the courage to withstand any charge.
His Highness thought fit to give you this account, and lay
it fairly by you, that you should use your prudence in it.
There was no breach of privilege intended, nor I hope any
done. It is fit you should understand the emergencies of
Sir Walter Earle. I observe no great pressing nor requiring in the letter, only it seems to take notice of your debates, which ought not to be done. One Tirrell was highly
censured by this House for carrying things out of doors.
But it is no more than has ever been done, to acquaint the
House of Commons. It is no new thing, but was always represented this way.
Mr. Knightley. In the beginning of the Long Parliament,
the King did a high breach of privilege upon this House. (fn. 3)
What is past, the single person or any other may take notice
of; but of the debates he ought not. Mr. Kirton brought a
message from court of this nature, but had a warning given
him never to do the like again. I wish this had not come,
and desire it may not be again.
The letter was all this while passing from member to
Colonel White. It is not happy for a Commonwealth to
have daily breaches upon their privileges; but I find not by
this letter, that you are broke in upon. The letter takes no
notice of your debates. It is but his duty, he being Chief
Magistrate, to advertise you of your charge and preparation.
I would have the letter laid aside, and Mr. Secretary to take
notice of it; that nothing may hereafter come from the court
of this nature, to distaste the House.
Sir John Northcote. This was no breach of privilege, to
bring in this letter from the Chief Magistrate. He ought to
acquaint you of the danger; but I cannot but take notice of
what was said by the said officer in the head of his regiment. (fn. 4)
This may be of dangerous consequence to loose the Army.
Those that have no money would pay, but those that have the
purse stop it and will not. King's servants have been turned
out of the House and sent to the Tower, for telling things out
of the House. I would have gentlemen that know not this,
haply to take notice of it. If the dangers are real, why not a
Parliament called sooner ? Why, methinks, our dangers are
not so great.
Mr. Reynolds. I will not say the letter is a breach of Parliament. It is fair enough, but I would have no more of
Mr. Solicitor-general. If sending a letter by the Chief
Magistrate be a breach of privilege, it were well it were known.
I have read over the letter, and find no such things in it. It
is fit the physician should know the state of your body; but
to desire no such letter should come again, is to stop the intercourse between you and your Chief Magistrate.
Mr. Onslow. Put the letter wholly aside, and make no
further debate of it. It mentions no money. It is no breach
of Parliament. I move that the Muster Roll be brought in.
The letter was laid aside, and the debate upon the establishment of the Army was proceeded upon.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. Now you are fully possessed of
the business, and ripe to appoint a Committee.
Mr. Bodurda. I am against a Committee. You may,
by the accounts before you, understand the heads of what
Colonel Allured. I move that none that are concerned in
the accounts, be of that Committee.
Major Burton. I move that Captain Baynes be added to
Mr. Bodurda. I move that Sir John Carter be of the
The question was put, yet Sir Arthur Haslerigge took
exceptions, and the question was again put a first and second
Mr. Knightley. I move that that question be put again.
Sir John Carter. I am no accountant, nor have meddled
with money, nor am in any way concerned. As a soldier,
I have fought and bled for you. If I be a fit member of
the House, I suppose I am a fit. member of a Committee.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I found myself unfit for accounts,
and did not know that that gentleman was fit for them; so I
gave my negative. I ask his pardon for it, and am sorry that
he should take exceptions.
Mr. Sherwyn. If Captain Baynes have a salary, he may
not be of the Committee.
The question being put upon Mr. Scot,
Mr. Speaker declared for the Yeas. Some declared for the
Noes, but the House was not divided; yet Mr. Scot stood.
Captain Baynes. By the favour of the Parliament, I am
one of the commissioners appointed to receive appeals touching the excise, and do receive a salary for it. I shall be laid
aside, if you please.
Mr. Bulkeley. I move that you abide by your order; and
not let any persons that receive or pay salaries be of this
Captain Baynes was thereupon excused.
Mr. Secretary. I move that Mr. Knightley be one.
He prayed to be excused, for ignorance, and that Alderman Thompson be named in his stead.
Colonel White moved that Captain Baynes be one, for he
was very fit, and not disabled by receiving a salary.
Lord Lambert. I would have Captain Baynes left out,
and Colonel White in his stead.
Captain Hatsell prayed to be excused, and it was ordered
Mr. Trevor moved that Mr. Knightley be added.
Resolved, that there shall be but twelve of this Committee,
Mr. Middleton, Colonel Birch, Sir John Carter, Sir Henry
Vane, Major-general Brown, (fn. 5) Lord Lambert, Mr. Godfrey,
Colonel Thompson, Mr. Scot, and Mr. Jackson.
Resolved, that five be the quorum of this Committee.
Mr. Godfrey. I move that a chairman be named here,
that may have the particular care of this business. I move
for Colonel Birch.
Mr. Attorney-general. The Parliament used to name a
chairman; but they found that inconvenient, in respect, the
chairman being away, hindered all the business.
The titles of the papers brought in were read, and referred
to the said Committee, and also referred to them, to take an
account of the Armies in Scotland and Ireland.
Mr. Reynolds. I move that, by name, the Muster Master
be ordered to bring in the Muster Rolls to your Committee.
Colonel Birch. I move to give your Committee general
power, and then they need not come to you for particular
powers; only to inspect your forces by sea and land, and to
inquire of the revenue of the three nations, and how your
charge may be defrayed for the future, and to send for persons, papers, and records.
Resolved, that these papers and accounts, delivered in from
the Commissioners of the Revenue, the Committee of the
Army, and the Commissioners of the Admiralty and
Navy be referred to this Committee; and this Committee, or
any five of them are to consider of the number and strength
of the armies and forces by land, and the number and strength
of the navy forces by sea, and how all the said forces by land
and sea are at present disposed of. And this Committee are
to meet to-morrow at two, and so de die in uiem, in the Treasury Chamber. (fn. 6)
Captain Buynes. It is enough to deliver in a list of the
commanding officers, and the number of the soldiers under
their respective commands; and, further, that your Committee
inquire how to retrench the charge of bringing in your money.
Mr. Bayles. I move to inquire of the miscarriage upon the
charge of the money.
Mr. Reynolds. I move that the monies laid out to your
civil officers, as well as military, be inquired into.
Colonel Birch. You intend not to give the disposal of
your forces to your Committee.
It was altered to, inquire bow disposed of.
Mr. Reynolds. I move to have the words added "for retrenching your charge."
These words were ordered to be added accordingly. (fn. 7)
Mr. Scot. It is fit you should know the state of your affairs,
with your allies and enemies. There is a time of year when
kings go out to war. Therefore, whether you are in a good
consistency and right understanding between you and the
Chief Magistrate, or not, your meaning, I suppose, is not to
leave the making of peace or war in the single person's hands. (fn. 8)
You mean to place it elsewhere. It is, therefore, fit to inquire who are your friends and enemies. I would have a
short day appointed to inquire of all this.
Mr. Onslow. This Committee will satisfy you in all these
Colonel Birch. I move that all persons under pay attend
your Committee to assist them. I have known a chairman in
such cases spend 40l. from his own purse, in sending for declarations, ordinances, and papers, for the service of the Committee.
Mr. Neville. I would have you take into speedy consideration the war with Spain. (fn. 9) There are many reports that
the enemy would seek you in peace, if your sense were understood that you would admit it.
There is a general decay of trade, that money will not be
had for this business. No money has come for two or three
years. I could tell you of one thousand particular decays of
trade, by want of the Spanish trade.
I hope, upon the debate of the militia, this business will
come into consideration.
Mr. Secretary. I move to revive a motion I made in the
morning, for which these gentlemen have moved. For the
state of your affairs in general, you are at peace with all the
world; but as to that state of Spain, which was made known
to you before, and you may have the estate of it again, when
you please, some part of this affair cannot stay the disposal of
your Committee. Fart of your fleet must be disposed of.
Your enemies are at work. It will be your interest to know
how the Sound is disposed of. In Europe, Poles and Danes
and Dutch combined; the Swede only on his own legs. (fn. 10) The
consequence is of weight to you, how far you will engage.
The counsels are before you. You may be informed of all,
when you please. There is no engagement as yet. The
charge of the fleet, next year, will amount to a million. (fn. 11) I
would have a short day appointed to inquire of this.
Captain Hatsell. By this your very being is in question;
if you take not care for your interest in the Sound.
Mr. Bodurda. I move to second this.
Mr. Knightley. I move for Monday, and nothing to intervene.
Sir Henry Vane. I move for Monday. This business is
of great weight, but I would not have you out your other
great vote. Be upon a good foundation at home.
Ordered, to take into consideration the business of the
Sound on Monday morning.
After altum silentium, the order to take into consideration
the additional clause upon the Bill of Recognition was read.
Sir Walter Earle. I move whether you will take into
consideration the business of the Petition of Right, Magna
Charta, &c. as was moved formerly. (fn. 12)
Sir Henry Vane. I move to take things in order as they
lie before you. First begin with bounding the power of the
Chief Magistrate, how far you will have him have the militia
and the negative voice; and how he may not protect delinquents by a power against justice, or be himself not accountable.
Colonel While. I hope the sword will be placed in the
people, so as there shall be no danger of delinquents being
There was a great person in the army, that said rather than
the militia and negative voice should go from the Chief Magistrate, he would fight it over again, and begin next morning.
This is a bounding of our power.
A gentleman desired he might name him, and then a charge
might be put down against him, and be tried here.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I am altogether for unity: I
would have this done, but in time. When you receive the
list of the officers, it may be, you may meet with that officer
Let us proceed upon this vote. I am glad I have it in my
hands. It is of three parts. I take the matter as it lies in
the vote, and would have us first go upon the negative voice.
I would have light from the gentlemen of the Long Robe. I
know not whether Protector or King be the greater man. I
hope we shall learn in the debate. There was a maxim in the
law that the King could do no wrong. It was received and
swallowed by me that the King was so bounded that he could
hot act in his own person, neither could any personal actions
be brought against him. No action would lie against him,
as against a justice of peace or constable; because he never
acted but in his public capacity. A constable was less
bounded in his personal capacity than the King, who could
not imprison nor act any thing in his own person.
It is true we had a thing called prerogative. A great person, heretofore, was committed for saying he desired to know
where that monster called prerogative was, and he would,
gladly, know, what that monster could do. It was the Earl
of Oxford. (fn. 13) It was answered, he should know what prerogative could do; and to declare it more demonstratively, it was
told him that it could commit him to the Tower.
Now, if that maxim in law be still true, and this Protector
be not greater than the King, then I am sure he can have no
negative voice, for by that he might be able to do much
wrong. If the Chief Magistrate deny any law, it is a wrong
to the people. This was debated with the late King. The
King denied his assent to what the House of Lords and Commons had made touching the militia, and would not consent
to alter the Lieutenants. We persisted, and did it without
him; (fn. 14) some of the gentlemen of the Long Robe's opinion
then much concurring, that the negative voice was in the people. Therefore I would have that to be the first boundary:
only state it now in order to the debate.
Mr. Attorney-general. We may agree, I hope. We are
not at such a distance. I would have this stated, and let the
negative voice be the matter of your debate to-morrow.
Sir Henry Vane. I would have the nature of the thing
opened a little, that is to be the occasion of the farther debate. I shall offer you my thoughts preparatively. You
are now bounding the Chief Magistrate.
The office of Chief Magistrate hath something in it essential, and which must be inviolably kept for him for the necessary preservation of the good of the whole, and the administration of justice; and something superfluous, and very
chargeable. (fn. 15) Such as are;—
1. A thing called kingly power, which implies the whole
affair of monarchy and prerogative, which are great occasions
of vain expenses and waste, all the nation over. Lay aside
this state of kingly power, and keep your Chief Magistrate. (fn. 16)
2. The power of the Chief Magistrate as to the negative
voice. The denying it to the Chief Magistrate as by the law
of the nation now set up by you, is fit and requisite. When
all these things are in our power, must we dispute it over
again between the people and the Chief Magistrate ?
The Chief Magistrate pretends to a power, not only of executing laws, but to enact laws; whereas it is the right of
all to bind themselves, and to make those laws by which they
are to be ruled. If corporations or any society of men have
a right to make bye-laws, surely much more hath this House,
which is the representative of the body of the nation. If
the interest of the whole nation should lie at one man's door;
it were worse than in the meanest corporation; especially to
serve a single person, or the interest of a few courtiers or flatterers.
Thus it should be, that he should not deny what you find
to be for your good. This our laws have declared that the
single person ought to grant: Leges quas vulgus elegerit. (fn. 17)
It was urged by Lord Fiennes, who drew the Declaration,
that it was undeniable that the King should not deny laws. (fn. 18)
This, therefore, is of so great concernment, agreeable to
the law of nature and constitution of the nation. It was before, though, if it were not, it is now in your power. Great
weight was laid upon it in all propositions of peace, and so
much weight depends upon it, as in the proportion of restraining or binding of power it ought to be a principal ingredient. The Chief Magistrate may do well without it.
On the other side, I would have him possess all things
needful to his acting for the people; all the power to draw
in the public spirits of the nation to a public interest, but
not power to do them or you any hurt. This is to make him
more like God himself, who can do none. Flatterers will
tell him otherwise; but they that wish his safety and honour,
will agree that he shall have power to do every thing that is
good, and nothing that is hurtful. It is therefore necessary
so to bind him as he may grow up with the public interest.
Mr. Knightley. I am free to proceed this afternoon; but
for your safety I would have you adjourn now.
Colonel Birch. Bounding the Chief Magistrate is a necessary work and fit to be gone upon; but my weakness is
such that I cannot agree this to be the first subject of your
debate; or I should not trouble you. I cannot give my vote
to this, or concur otherwise, till something else be done first;
until it be agreed whether there be another House or not;
for if there be, I would have the militia and negative voice
disposed one way; if not, another way. I leave it before
you, whether you ought not first to debate this, before you
do any thing in order to the bounding the Chief Magistrate.
I humbly submit it.
Mr. Neville. I think the last proposition, whether you
will have another House, not material now; but when the
whole Petition and Advice comes in debate, another House
perhaps may then be thought convenient; but it is not ne
cessary you should take the old way into consideration. You
may have another House, and not a negative voice. You
are not going to build upon the old constitution. The Other
House may be such a House as is only preparatory to this,
as, among popular assemblies in other commonwealths, there
was an assembly to propound laws, and another to enact
them, and a single person to put all in execution. Commonwealth was a good title, but grubbed up by the title of Chief
The negative voice will not at all touch the Other House.
It is presumed we are going to something else, though what
are men ? Therefore it is not fit to debate whether it shall
be in the power of any person or persons to strangle the debates and pains of this House.
Mr. Onslow. I would have no jangling motions in stating
the matter of your debate. The Other House will come on
best when you come to debate upon the rights and privileges
of Parliament. I would have you proceed upon the negative
voice in the first place, and adjourn till to-morrow.
Mr. Starkey. The end of the Other House is for a negative
voice, else they are useless. I conceive the co-ordination of
the powers, of great use and advantage to the people; and
therefore it is most fit and necessary to take into consideration first, the Other House. For if you shall deny a negative to the Lords, you may, by the same arguments, deny
it to the Chief Magistrate.
Captain Baynes. The Other House is not yet before you;
but as to the power of the Chief Magistrate, formerly so
boundless: what power a single person shall have in the
legislature, which is proposed as the first bounding. For my
part, I think no man can tell how to set bounds to the single
person, no more than to hedge in a cuckoo. Therefore I
think it most fit to deliberate and agree what power the
Chief Magistrate shall have, and not what he shall not have.
Let it be so stated in your Bill, arid that he shall have no
Mr. Sadler. All the bounds that ever I have heard of, for
the Chief Magistrate, are but negatives. Exceptions do but
strengthen a rule. Exceptio probat regulam, in non exceptis.
You plainly confirm him in all other power. I would have
him so bounded by the Bill as to give him an affirmative
power, and let him have no more. But that which is most
necessary is, to be satisfied whether the Chief Magistrate has
power to dissolve you. Inquire that first.
Mr. Trevor. I am not for an affirmative power. You may
bound your Chief Magistrate by negatives well enough. I
am glad there is that care taken to bound the Chief Magistrate, but understand not well what you mean by bounding
him affirmatively; unless he were to take his power now.
Your first debate I conceive should be, wherein you will
bound him. I wish we may do it so as he shall not be able
to do any harm; but then it will be questionable whether he
shall be able to do you any good.
Serjeant Maynard. Declare not the powers till you declare the persons. How we can circumscribe the power before we consider the parts of the Government, I know not.
We are intrusted for the people, not for the nobility. True,
but by whom, if the sole power of making laws be in this
House ? Besides, you wholly exclude what is essential to a
Chief Magistrate. You represent not him. Whether are
we intrusted by the nobility, whether by the Chief Magistrate ? Our ancestors, that is the Commons, did not think
it fit to put this jewel into our chest. A man that has a
treasure, had rather have it kept under three keys than
Many differences are in religion and in our civil concerns. Suppose, in process of time, it should so fall out, that
the major part of this House should agree to do some strange
act, so as to lay some imposition upon conscience, or the like;
or suppose they should be of contrary opinion to us as to
Papists, or some other thing; and one party be pulling another out of the House, would you have the Chief Magistrate
consent to their law, and confirm that without more to do ?
You swear the Chief Magistrate to do that which is just. If
you offer me that which is not just, I am bound by my oath
to deny it. He means to approve laws that shall be just,
but if that be propounded which shall not be conceived to be
just, shall he be necessitated to confirm that?
I know not how you can proceed clearly upon the bounding of powers, till you have determined what the persons are
that are in power. I therefore move to debate of the Other
Lord Lambert. The negative voice is the most material.
I know not what was meant by the Serjeant's question, Who
represented the Lords ? If he meant those sitting at the
other end of the House, they are sufficiently represented here,
both as they were electors, some of them in person, and many
of them by their letters (fn. 19) to several places.
Assert the negative voice to be here, and you go a great
way in your business. Some say it is here, some say not.
Some would say but part is here, and would have it divided.
Agree this, and all other points are centered here. The best
of all your fabric is to correspond with your interest here,
and to assert it. It is a matter of great weight; but I would
have you adjourn for the present, and take it up to-morrow.
Ordered, that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow, at
The clerk entered the order thus, viz.: "That the debate
concerning the negative voice, be proceeded in to-morrow
morning at nine of the clock; and that nothing else do then
intervene:" but it, was not till after Mr. Speaker left the
chair, which was not justifiable.
The Committee of Privileges sat in the Star Chamber, and
then adjourned to the House, upon the business of Haslemere, in Surrey, Serjeant Waller in the chair.
The dispute lay between Captain Westbrook, Lord Onslow's friend, and Mr. Hooke, who was already admitted into
Counsel and witnesses were heard on both sides, and all
their electors particularly weighed, and severally put to the
question at the Committee.
Captain Westbrook had fifteen capable electors, and the
other fourteen; so that the Report of the Committee was
Resolved there, that a minor is no good elector. (fn. 20)
The reason was, that he was not fit to dispose of his own
estate, therefore not fit to dispose of another's, nor to choose
for the whole nation.
Resolved, that a miller is not an inhabitant, unless his
family be there.
The principal question was, whether the freeholders that
were no inhabitants had votes in the election. Resolved the
contrary, and that the bailiff not being a freeholder and inhabitant, had no vote; only by his office was to return.
The Committee sat till ten most assiduously. (fn. 21)