Thursday, March 10, 1658–9.
Mr. Speaker took the chair at nine.
Prayers by Mr. Cooper.
A Petition was offered from Mr. John Herbert, (fn. 1)
Jack Trevor, touching the Custos Brevium
(fn. 2) office. It was
appointed to be read on Monday.
Mr. Knightley, for Serjeant Waller, reported from the Committee of Privileges, touching the election for Tiverton, that
Alderman Warner and Sir Coppleston Bampfield were duly
returned, and Colonel Shapcot unduly. (fn. 3)
It was moved to recommit it. Others moved that nought
could intervene till the great question, touching the Scotch
and Irish members, was determined. This held in debate till
eleven, and at last
Resolved to agree with the Committee. My single negative
was to it.
Mr. Bethel. I move that the debate upon the Scotch and
Irish members be taken up, and that the persons concerned,
The order was read touching the adjournment, and he
moved that before they withdrew, they might be heard say
what they had to say for themselves.
Dr. Clarges. There is nought in this debate but ipsi diximus. I am of opinion that the gentlemen that serve for Scotland have a clearer right than the English. You conquered
them throughout. Commissioners were on both sides for an
union. (fn. 4) There was a declaration in 51, to that purpose. To
subdue a people and offer them the same privilege with yourselves, (fn. 5) and then take it away, is a clear inconsistency.
Some of those parts stood out, and would not unite, but did
deliberate (fn. 6) You did not carry arms thither, to make an absolute conquest upon. them.
His Highness did assume the government, by advice of his
council. I shall not dispute the title. Two Parliaments
were called, where the members from thence came. One
Marquess and two or three Earls (fn. 7) have complied so far with
you, as to come and sit with you upon this foot.
We have a statute for sending thirty members hither. (fn. 8)
You have no statute to call four hundred members for England. You have laws and customs, you will say. There is no
law to call one Parliament, nor for a Protector to call Parliaments. He is Protector of England, Scotland, and Ireland,
and the Parliament is so; and he had no power to call a Par
liament, but by that title, and by this consequence you are
now a Parliament.
It is no new thing for members for Scotland to sit here.
All the objection is, that the distribution is not agreed on, the
more wrong to the people of Scotland; yet they are content
with the distribution.
For Ireland, they have as good a foot as any. They are
united to you, and have always had an equal right with you.
He that was King of England was King of Ireland, or Lord.
If you give not a right to sit here, you must, in justice, let
them have a Parliament at home. How safe that will be, I
question. Those that sit for them are not Irish Teagues, but
Your writ is your charter of sitting, else you are no Parliament. If you please, put the question whether the members
for Ireland and Scotland shall sit in the Parliament of the
Commonwealth of England, Scotland, and Ireland; seeing it
is the course to end with a question.
Sir Henry Vane. It is truly told you, they are united,
and ought to have a right to sit here. That is not the question; but whether the right be derived according to law.
The Petition and Advice gives his Highness power to call
Parliaments, but, according to law. Query, if that be pursued ?
It is well this is agreed to be a Parliament of the Commonwealth of England. There is no incorporation for Ireland, as
was for Scotland. Admit Scotland to have a right of union,
they are not duly and warrantably called.
Proceed first upon Ireland, and if any Irish members have
aught to offer, they may be heard, and at the question withdraw.
Mr. Lockyer. The dependence of this business is of greater
consequence than the concernment of any person; but, the
nation of Scotland being concerned so deeply, give me leave
to speak my thoughts.
The tie of that nation to England is very great. It cannot
be denied that it is now united to England. There is a declaration and manifest engagement from England, to preserve
the rights and liberties of that nation.
When the English army came first into that nation, two
proclamations were put forth, declaring they had no intention
to enslave that nation, but to assert their liberties and privileges.
This union did most acquiesce all interests. The malignants
were no sooner suppressed, but you sent to us Commissioners
to treat for an union. They had power to tender, not to make
an union. In law, reason, justice, and conscience, then, ought
to be given all rights and privileges due to that nation.
The privilege of sitting here as expressed in the Act of
Union, (fn. 9) and in the Petition and Advice. (fn. 10) Not only de jure,
but by possession we have sat here. I conceive it is a maxim
in law that no man that is in possession should be debarred,
but by a better right. If they be debarred, it will not only
annul all that is done this Parliament, but all Parliaments
I have been bred in law, though not acquainted with the
law of England. If I have no right to sit here, no Act made
while I am here, but is void.
All the objection is that there is no distribution of the
members. I take the proportions to amount to the number,
and there is no distribution in that clause of the Petition and
Advice. That clause is no more plain for England than for
Scotland and Ireland. If it were disputable, it is determined
by order of his Highness and Council, and by former Parliaments, and this Parliament admitting them by a tacit consent,
and the consent of the persons that have a right to choose.
When the gentleman said we did not know yea or no,
surely he meant not that we could speak nought else, (fn. 11) but
that I leave to the judgment of the House.
The nation of Scotland have been so tenderly cared for by
this House, when they had exasperated this nation, that I
dare well repose now that this House will do nought to take
away the rights and liberties of our nation.
Colonel Kirkley. I shall offer an expedient.
It were a sad thing that this House should rise and do
nought. Our enemies would rejoice. To reconcile this, I
shall be of a worthy knight's opinion, (fn. 12) to make addresses to
his Highness, expressing how willing you are to receive him,
and to establish another House; so you may secure the rights
of the people.
If his Highness refuse it, you are but where you were. It
is no dishonour. I never saw his person, though well known
to his father. I and all people have great hope of him.
It is not safety to disengage these nations. If the family
of Stuart should make any stir, as they will, then it becomes
a national quarrel. I should be sorry to see it a quarrel between two families.
My motion is, to consider in what way you will address to
his Highness, to acquaint him clearly what has been your
Captain Baynes moved to the order of proceedings, and
was called down by the chair, unless he speak to the orders of
Sir Thomas Wroth, who stood up first, moved to hear all
they could say, and then that they would please to withdraw.
Mr. Fowell. The case of Scotland differs from that of
Ireland. Go on with that of Scotland first, and, if you please,
they may withdraw.
Major Knight for Scotland. (fn. 13)
If you will not admit them to sit, why were they called ?
Put the question whether they have a right or no.
As to withdrawing, I cannot, till by your vote I am com
manded. I cannot discharge my trust if I withdraw till
you command one. If you please, put that question first,
whether we shall sit and vote ?
He said, we should turn him out when he went out.
Sir Charles Coote. I could offer you something to the
service of this House. We are entered upon a debate which
was not agreed on, when the House rose, to be matter of the
debate. If you please, go on upon the debate about transacting, which is the natural question. The merit has been
well spoken to.
Mr. Hewley. This debate came in irregularly, to divide
us from a question, and, now, to divide the Commonwealth.
I would have you put the natural question.
Mr. Knightley. I cannot sit still and hear the word irregular used in this House. It is not parliamentary. It was a
little too peremptory.
Mr. Speaker told him, under the favour of his worthy countryman, the word "peremptory" ought not to be used in this
Mr. Trevor. Seeing the Scotch and Irish members themselves desire it, put it off your hands, though the debate
come in irregularly.
Sir William Wheeler for Scotland.
There is no complaint before you from those parts, touching the distribution. We are united, and have equal right
with England to sit by the Petition and Advice. They are
one body with you.
Fourteen several Acts, passed last Parliament, granted or
confirmed pardon, while they sat. I understand not why any
should now find a starting hole. I believe we shall do you
no disservice. Some of us have spent, and will be ready to
spend our time, our blood, our treasure, for you.
Colonel Birch. I was against this debate coming in at
first; but now, I would have you proceed. Therefore I
would have you put a clear question, that we may freely give
our votes; not put both nations together, but Scotland first.
I shall speak to that.
It rejoices my heart to hear so much said upon such good
grounds. This Union is a return of prayers, put up many
years ago. The north parts always prayed this prayer.
I shall say no more to the legal part, but to the prudential.
If you turn out the members, think of the consequences after
such an union, to subdivide. I hope this House is generally
satisfied in it. There is more to God's glory in this thing.
than in any thing that is done this war. If they have a Parliament of their own, it is a question whether they will agree
to vote with us.
I shall propound a question, if you please, whether you
will reject the members for Scotland from sitting in Parliament. Then they may withdraw, if they think fit; though
I could offer authority, that they ought not to withdraw.
Sir Henry Vane. There is no such question before you,
of rejecting; but questioning whether the Chief Magistrate
have power to bring in members here, without a foundation
If you please, adjourn for an hour, and let your Clerk, in
the mean time, gather up all that on your books may relate
to this question.
Mr Jenkinson seconded that motion.
Mr. Annesley. This of the Clerk gathering out of your
books, is a new question. I move to divide your question.
You cannot carry on Scotland and Ireland together. The
cases differ. I never see you carry on two boroughs together.
Mr. Attorney-general. I was always of opinion that this
question came in irregularly. I doubt this cannot be determined, before you proceed upon your first question, and debate it in a full and free house. It tends neither to villanage
nor slavery, but to peace and unity.
Mr. Knightley. I am sorry to hear a gentleman that, sat
so long in this House for England, should now be serving
for a borough in Scotland; and should, insist that he sits
upon as good a foundation as England. (fn. 14) And I may well
call that peremptory, (fn. 15) when a whole House is charged with
doing that which is irregular.
There was a great debate whether the Irish or Scotch
members should be first taken into debate. Some moved to
adjourn. I came away at almost one. The House sat till
almost three, and at last,
Resolved to proceed in the debate concerning the rights of
the Scotch members to-morrow morning.
The Committee of Grievances sat in the afternoon.
Colonel Terrill in the chair.
Mr. Wharton offered Sir William Huddleston's Petition
Mr. Annesley offered a Petition touching the excise from
Both were appointed to be read on Wednesday next.
I seconded pro Sir William Huddleston.
Mr. Raleigh offered the Petition of Lady Worcester touching Worcester House, (fn. 16) which was read, and referred to a
Committee, quorum unus T. B.
It was referred to the same Committee to consider of unnecessary courts, viz. Drury House and Worcester House
Committee, obstructions, &c. This was occasioned by this
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. I repent from my heart, and ask
forgiveness of the Committee, that I was guilty of setting
Lady Hewett's Petition, (fn. 17) it seems, was delivered to the
clerk, and by some legerdemain got off the file. It was moved
to be produced.
The case of Longe and Edwards was heard by counsel at
bar. The Committee of Privileges sat touching Packer and