Thursday, April 21, 1659.
I came late, and found the business of the militia in debate.
It seems Dr. Petty had made his defence to the charge, and
Sir Jerome Sankey his reply.
Dr. Petty did, first, in general, deny all the articles, and
then, particularly made answer to every one of them; denying the charges in every one of them severally. He desired
that he might have a charge brought in against him, in particulars, that he might be thereby enabled to vindicate himself,
Sir Jerome Sankey instanced in some certain particulars,
which he supposed would make good the first, second, and
third articles of the charge, (fn. 1) brought in by him against Dr.
He farther informed the House that, whereas Dr. Petty
ought to have returned all original maps, field-plots, and field
books relating to the lands in Ireland, and belonging to the
office of the Surveyor-general in the Exchequer at Dublin, according to the Act of Parliament in this behalf, he had only
returned transcripts of them, and keeps the originals himself,
in his own hands.
Dr. Petty informed the House that the particulars in his
hands were foul books and papers, out of which those he had
returned were extracted; but that he should be ready to deliver them as the House should give direction.
Resolved, that this business concerning Dr. Petty be resumed, and be farther heard on this day se'nnight, and that
Sir Jerome Sankey do then bring in a particular charge in
writing against Dr. William Petty.
That it be referred to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and
the Council there, to take care that all, the original plots, fieldbooks, and books of reference relating to the lands in Ireland,
in the hands or custody of Dr. William Petty, be, at the same
time, certified here, and secured according to law. (fn. 2)
Major Beake had moved that the militia be declared to be
in three estates, and that his Highness take care of it.
Mr. Annesley seconded that the militia be declared to be
in the three estates.
Sir Arthur Haslerigge. It is fundamentally in the people,
and ought to be debated in a Grand Committee.
Sir Henry Vane. This (fn. 3) is giving the quarrel that you had
with the late king. (fn. 4) It is properly moved for a Grand Committee; and to appoint a day. If you will not do it in a Grand
Committee, take it up to-morrow. The business of the legislative is not now in dispute; but the executive power.
Mr. Bayles. The two last gentlemen moved that which
will bring you into a maze for ten days, till the nation and
the House be about your ears.
I expected an answer to be given to the arguments for settling the militia, as it is moved; but I hear nothing of that.
Mr. Neville. The general, that is dead, (fn. 5) stood up in that
place, and urged unanswerable reasons why the militia should
not be in one single person. (fn. 6) If this had been then denied, we
had not been here. I am against the present debate; but to
put it for a Grand Committee. This is to make way for the
Mr. Raleigh. He that has the sword will be Chief Magistrate. The safest way is, to pass this power into the Protector
and the two Houses of Parliament. All Commissions in the
country were from the Chief Magistrate.
Colonel White. Your question comprehends the whole
matter. Do not leave this thing without settling it so as that
it may not be liable to future exception.
All Commissions in the country were a mere usurpation of the
Chief Magistrate; but were anciently granted in Parliament.
If you pass this question, I may say as a worthy gentleman
in another case, you establish his Highness to all intents and
Mr. Higgons. There is a necessity of concluding this debate before you rise. Peace with France and Spain, say our
letters, is ratified.
If you divide those two powers, general and protector, I
shall deal faithfully with you, I had rather have him genera
than Chief Magistrate. Doges of Genoa and Venice are
Chief Magistrates, but have it but as a mere power. One
cannot stir out of doors without leave. The other is for
Lord Falkland. I am for a Grand Committee. I have
heard of the Gordian knot. If we part with the sword, we
can never loose the knot. It is all we have left, put it not
out of your hands. (fn. 7)
Sir Walter Earle. The way to keep it, is to put it as is
moved. Some others abroad (fn. 8) seem to arrogate the militia to
themselves. It is time to look about us. I own the Petition
Lord Lambert. There is much of that point in this question, whether we shall be Englishmen or not Englishmen. It
is told you, it is not a putting it away but taking it in. It is
a putting it out of your hands.
This House is a fluid body that is gone. So the other
may be likewise gone; and then the single person has it.
Consider, first, how it shall be executed in the intervals; that
where you leave it you may be sure to find it.
It is worthy taking into such consideration, that every man
that is here may fully speak his mind in a Grand Committee.
Turn not away, thus, the precious prerogatives of the people.
The votes you have already passed, have gone a great way.
Mr. Knightley. Quibene distinguit, bene docet. You must
distinguish the militia as an army, and as settled in the country gentry that had lives and fortunes to answer it. The Parliament raised the army. Lord Fairfax was general, then.
He that is imperator may be dux, but to run suddenly on
this, we may repent. It is said by a gentleman, he would
choose him general before protector. Therefore, consider it
better. Settle it not so, as to be forced next week to alter it.
Consider it in a Grand Committee to-morrow.
Mr. Turner. The present time is yours: but whether tomorrow is yours, or no, is not known.
It is fit every man should say what he knows. It was our
ancestors' prudence never to determine this question. It was
not to be altered, but by Act of Parliament. The single person
could not intermeddle, alone, to call any out of the county.
You may assert where your militia is now, but not where
it shall be. The city, by a jury of twelve, have determined
who shall be general. Another meeting at another place, will
name you another.
It behoves you to determine this point; that his Highness
may execute due authority this present Parliament. I would
therefore have it quickly determined. I would have, therefore,
every man to know what he speaks, and speak what he knows.
Mr. Trevor stood up to speak, but
Lord Lambert moved that Mr. Turner explain who he
meant by the twelve that had agreed of a general, and wished
he might name them.
Mr. Turner explained that twenty-five officers of the militia in the city met, and thirteen carried it against twelve.
Mr. Bayles explained to the same purpose. There was a
petition to the Lord-General Fleetwood, and, with much ado,
an address to his Highness that such a person be general.
Major-general Kelsey. It is fit that every man should
speak what he knows. That gentleman, meaning Mr. Turner, speaks more than he knows.
Mr. Starkey. Seeing that gentleman knows it better, let
him speak what he knows.
Mr. Lloyd. That is a mistake. What is done, is not done
by the militia of the city. The case is sad, what is done. I
heard, that no authority has been given to it, since the Protector's death. I have heard it often stirred, who shall give
commissions. Some say the power is dead with the Protector. This can give none. If distraction come, who shall head
us ? Let us not flatter ourselves. Consultations are held
without: Some, in power, have the ammunition in their power.
You have to-day, but are not sure of to-morrow. If you
command me, I shall tell you what they have done. I would
have a speedy course taken, for some to grant commissions.
Colonel Rigby. I hope the soldiery about town will not
meddle in your affairs. This is a business of the greatest
weight that ever came, or will come before you. Let it,
therefore, be adjourned till to-morrow morning, and debated
in a Grand Committee.
Lord Falkland. I would have the person named that was
resulted by the jury in London; to be general, that he be
made exemplary, lest you be a mock.
Mr. Annesley. Divers members of this House are of that
militia. I would have them tell what they know. I doubt
there is cause for some such jealousy; that we shall be imposed upon, as formerly, and divers taken out and a few sitting. (fn. 9) I would have you first resolve, that none shall impose
upon you from without doors.
Mr. Biddulph. The militia of this city was never summoned, I am one, and had no notice. There were twentyseven of the militia met. There were thirteen for these papers
that have been brought up, and twelve against them.
I am assured that neither the city, nor the militia of London,
will intermeddle with any affairs of this House. It was cried,
Mr. Hewley. It is not enough to declare that you will not
receive imposition from without doors. You must do somewhat else.
To have this militia every where, is to have it nowhere.
Two suns cannot shine in one firmament. The longest sword
will determine it. It is not fit to set the executive and the
legislative power to quarrel with one another.
We give his Highness, by this vote, only authority, hac vice,
to give commissions. We do not settle it upon him, absolutely.
Lord Falkland. While you are disputing about who shall
be the general, you hear they are setting up another in the
city. I would have him named, that if it be real, we may
remedy it; if but a brag, learn it, that it may not fright us.
Mr. Solicitor-general. Your militia, nor negative voice, never
was your quarrel. It was never disputed that it was in King,
Lords, and Commons; but wise men have not meddled with
it. That it was in the two Houses, without the single person,
or contra, would never be granted. Wherever the legislative
is, the militia is; but yours is the case of distribution, as
who shall lead your army and grant commissions.
It is for your service to consider who, for the present peace
and security, shall command your army; and whether this to be
from the Protector and both Houses of Parliament, and to
receive orders from all. This ought speedily to be done, and
then consider the person.
I went out, and presently after the House was divided upon
the question, whether the question be now put that this debate
be adjourned till to-morrow morning.
It was carried in the negative by 152 to 115. Sir Arthur
Haslerigge and Mr. Trenchard were Tellers for the yeas.
Sir Charles Coote and Major-general Browne were Tellers
for the noes.
Resolved, that the matters now in debate be adjourned for
Resolved, that Sir William D'Oyly shall have leave to go
into the country for a month, notwithstanding the calling of
Thursday Afternoon, April 21, 1659.
Mr. Speaker took the Chair at three.
The Declaration for excluding the Cavaliers was read, and
ordered to be ingrossed; and the consent of the other House
to be desired.
There was a debate about the title of it; whether "the
Parliament," or "both Houses of Parliament." Resolved
the latter. (fn. 10)
The order of the day was read, touching the debate adjourned; but it mentioned not what the debate was. Query,
if regular; but the clerk said the Speaker would not enter it
otherwise. (fn. 11)
Mr. Serjeant Wylde made a long speech, against placing
the militia in a single person; not much heard, and less
Lord Falkland. The militia to our ancestors has always
been a secret of state; and they would never define where it
was. To prevent the fire that will be kindled amongst the
pretenders, who will all inforce their title the best they can,
appoint commissioners to manage this business.
Sir Robert Goodwin. In determining this, you determine
the whole business of this Commonwealth. To make this
haste, swerves from all form of proceedings in former times.
Other then in a Grand Committee this cannot be debated.
We took an oath to conserve the liberties of the people; and
to pass this suddenly !
Colonel Allured and Mr. Edgar were for a Grand Committee, and could not so forget the old cause as to put it out
of our hands.
Mr. Drake. Endeavours have been, before we met, to
wrest the militia out of the Protector's hands; now to wrest it
out of yours, by a sort of men without doors. I would have
it declared, that the power of disposing the militia is in the
Protector and the two Houses of Parliament.
Mr. Stephens. It has been told you, while you are debating about it, others are wresting it out of your hands.
I apprehend it is not the question that you are going
about, to settle the militia in the single person. That were
more fit for a Committee. But it is far from that. There is
the raising of the militia, and the executive power of the
militia, which cannot be safer than in the Protector and the
Parliament; for if it be not so, then it must be in some
If you please, declare that the power of executing of it
shall be in such persons, and no other than such, as shall be
approved by this House. I fetch my authority from the
book of Edward the Confessor's time.
I shall give my vote that the militia be in the Protector
and both Houses, to be executed by such persons as shall be
approved of by this House. This does neither narrow our
own power, nor exclude the other House.
Mr. Scot. This looks like Hezekiah's will, "put thy
house in order, for thou shalt die and not live."
The Protector, "so named," is but de bene esse; and until
you have bounded him, nothing is binding to the people.
The case is, you are going to give the Chief Magistrate
a negative in the militia, and so, his will be an executive
power, both on the legislative and the militia. If he would
lie down and wish, he could not wish more. I think you are
not ripe for such a resolution.
If he want any money, or that the Excise and Customs
stick by the way, he will be able, at any time, to inforce
them. The last Parliament gave away 1,300,000l. per
annum, and you give away the militia. To a son of Adam,
a greater power than ever king had, you are giving away;
the Trojan horse with more arms in it than ever were in that
Lord Marquis Argyle. I hope the Parliament will be so
wise as to give no more nor less than is necessary.
I was here in 46, in your service. The proposition that
you agreed on was, that the King would grant the militia to be
disposed of by both Houses, without him, for twenty years.
I think the question was then about the executive power
of the King singly, without the House, and that brought on
If granted, put a very good salvo in your vote. If you
vote the militia to be in the Protector and the Parliament,
add "to be disposed of as you shall direct, as to the executive power;" and so you determine it, not where the
Sir Henry Vane. At that time the Scotch Commissioners
did assert the right of the King in the militia; and if you
please to read the Declaration, you will find upon what
account that Declaration was published.
Mr. Starkey. I am against reading the Declaration.
Men were then divided in their judgments, as well as in the
field; therefore, I should hardly rest my judgment upon
those things that were begotten out of controversy. I will
not say, but I went along with it; yet I would not have such
things for your rule now, lest it lead farther.
The first question about the militia was, that it was in the
King, and that raised the difference; but we are not at
that now. We are gaining and settling it in us, which is an
advantage for the people; and it had saved a great deal
of strife before, if this had been granted, that it is in the Protector and the two Houses of Parliament.
The Declaration was going to be read. It was long.
Mr. Godfrey. I move against reading it; as, by the same
reason, you may read all Declarations, and what passed in
the Long Parliament, and debate them, which will be
The quarrel never was on the militia, but only on bringing
delinquents to punishment. It was his duty by the law
of God and man to assist in their punishment, which he neglected, and that was a great part of the quarrel.
Constantly, the legislature has been executed by the three
estates. I do not know that it will be safe, nor possible, nor
rational, to separate the militia from the legislature. If the
legislature of the militia be in one single estate, then all
is there. I am not able to reconcile this difficulty, that it is
possible to separate the legislature of the militia from the legislature— (fn. 12)
All powers on earth are temptations; therefore, must no
man be trusted with the power ? The three estates are not
free from temptations. All is misrepresented in the debate.
It is not once moved, that the power shall be in the single
person. Farewell magistracy, and all rule and government!
Men must therefore have no trust. This takes in pieces your
Any gentleman may recite the Declaration. If I quote an
author, must I bring the book, and desire you to read it, if it
be so ? Every man that lives under a law is supposed to be
knowing of it.
I much fear you have not leisure, actually, in a Grand
Committee, to determine this. If all be true that is said,
while you are debating it, another without doors will get it.
Strange pamphlets fly abroad directed to persons without, in
a subordination, mentioning to live and die with him. These
are high and dangerous things, and these are printed without
your allowance. I am afraid of the consequence.
This calls for a speedy advice and resolution. When the
balance comes between being, and well being, I must lay
it more to heart. There is more need than I can understand
and haply approach to, to put this off your hands, by putting
Sir Walter Earle. First determine whether all Commissions are void by the death of the Protector; and then,
consider where to place your militia.
Mr. St. Nicholas, and divers more, moved for a Grand
The Declaration (fn. 13) was read; and then another Declaration.
I went away at five, to Justice Lowther's funeral. Query,
what was done ?
The House sat till six, and the other House till then; but I
believe neither came to a question: only adjourned the debate
till to-morrow morning. (fn. 14)
The Committee for Northern Ministers met, and adjourned
till Saturday. (fn. 15)