House of Lords Journal Volume 6
18 April 1643

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History of Parliament Trust

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1767-1830

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9, 10, 11

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'House of Lords Journal Volume 6: 18 April 1643', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 6: 1643 (1767-1830), pp. 9-11. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=37224 Date accessed: 17 September 2014.


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DIE Martis, videlicet, 18 die Aprilis.

PRAYERS.

Earl of Manchester, Speaker this Day.

Report from the Committee of an Answer to the King's last Messages.

The Earl of Holland reported, "That the Committee of both Houses have met, to consider of the King's Two last Messages; and they have made a Draught of an Answer to the same, which they offered to their Lordships Consideration:" And it was read; and the House Ordered, That the same shall be communicated to the House of Commons, by a Conference.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Doctor Bennett:

To desire a Conference, as soon as may stand with their Conveniency, touching something in Answer to the King's Two last Messages.

Message from thence, with Orders for Concurrence.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Rob't Harley Knight; which was of these Particulars:

1. To desire their Lordships Concurrence in an Order concerning the next Term; which being read, it was agreed to, and Ordered to be presently printed and published. (Here enter it.)

2. An Order concerning the adding of some Names in the Ordinance concerning the City of Norwich.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to.

3. To desire their Lordships Concurrence in an Order made for raising Voluntiers in the City of London, under the Command of Sheriff Langham.

(Here enter it.)

Agreed to with the House of Commons in this Vote.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees with the House of Commons in all the Orders now brought up:

Voluntiers in London, under Sheriff Langham.

That this House doth Declare, That they do take it as an acceptable Service in those Citizens, or others, that shall list themselves under the Command of Sheriff Langham, or such as he shall appoint, for the better Security of the City of London and the Counties adjacent, and for the Assistance of the Lord General if there shall be Occasion; and the said Sheriff is hereby desired to improve his Interest and Authority, for the speedy advancing of so necessary a Service.

House adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Ordinance to prevent the Judges, &c. from repairing to Oxford, to keep the next Term there.

"The Lords and Commons in Parliament, taking into their serious Consideration a Proclamation dated at Oxford the First of this Instant April, for the holding and continuing of the Court of Chancery, and all Proceedings therein, the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, and of the First Fruits and Tenths, the Court of the Dutchy of Lancaster, Court of Wards and Liveries, and Court of Requests, at the City of Oxford, for the whole Term of Easter then next ensuing, upon and from the 19th Day of this Instant April, until and upon the 15th Day of May next following; and for adjourning the Courts of King's Bench, Common Pleas, and Exchequer, from Quindena Paschæ until the Return of Quinque Septimanas Paschæ next, do find that it will much tend to the Prejudice of the Commonwealth, to have the said Courts and Receipts held and continued at Oxford, where great Part of an Army raised against the Parliament and the Authority thereof now resides: And the said Lords and Commons, apprehending and foreseeing the great Inconveniencies and Mischiefs that necessarily must happen to many of His Majesty's most faithful and best Subjects, in Case those Courts and Receipts be held at Oxford, where such of them as have Occasion to attend cannot with any Safety of their Persons or Estates repair to, His Majesty having in Effect declared all Persons that have contributed any Thing in Aid or Defence of the Parliament, and the Privilege thereof, to be guilty of High Treason, and, in Pursuance thereof, by the Force and Power of the Army there remaining, (fn. *) seized upon many of their Persons, where they are detained Prisoners, and some proceeded against as Traitors, having nothing laid to their Charge but their assisting the Parliament, and opposing that Army raised to destroy it and the Kingdom; and finding that divers, both Judges and others, whose Attendance upon the said Courts and Receipts will be necessary, are Members or Assistants to One or both Houses of Parliament, whose Presence at this Time cannot be spared; and that, if the Records necessary to be used in the said Courts should be removed from the usual Places to Oxon, in a Time when Two Armies are residing near thereabouts, it would endanger the Miscarriage of them, which might ruin many of His Majesty's Subjects, whose Estates depend thereupon; and that so far a Distance between the said Courts of Law and Equity, which have necessary Dependance one upon another, would prove exceeding prejudicial to many; and, finding greater Cause to take Care for preventing the said Mischiefs and Inconveniencies than was in Hillary Term last, in that the said Army is still continuing, although the said Lords and Commons have used the best Means they possibly could, by Proposition and Treaty to and with His Majesty, for the Disbanding thereof; and as yet all their Endeavours are fruitless:

"The said Lords and Commons do therefore Declare and Order, That no Judge, Minister, or other Person belonging to any of the said Courts or Receipts, shall repair to the said City of Oxon, or do or execute any Thing belonging to the said Offices and Employments but in the Places usual for the doing and executing thereof; and the said Lords and Commons do enjoin the said several Judges, Officers, and Ministers, to attend the Execution of the said Offices, at the usual Times and Places for the Execution thereof, and not elsewhere; and that no Member of, or Assistant to, either of the Two Houses of Parliament, that have any Place, Office, or Employment, about any of the said Courts or Receipts, shall presume to depart from their Attendance upon the Parliament, without the special Leave of that House whereof they are Members or Assistants, and that those departed do return forthwith; and do further Order, That no Person shall remove, or cause to be removed, any Records or Writings, of any the said Courts or Receipts, to or towards the City of Oxon: And the Lords and Commons do Declare, That, if any Persons shall disobey this Order, they will proceed against them as wilful Contemners of the Authority of Parliament, and Disturbers of the Peace of the Kingdom: And it is further Declared and Ordered, by the said Lords and Commons, That no Judgement, Decree, Order, or Proceedings whatsoever, that shall be given, made, or had, by or in any of the said Courts or Receipts, out of the usual Places where the said Courts and Receipts have been accustomed to be held and kept, shall bind any Person that may be concerned therein without his own voluntary Consent; and that all Judges, Officers, and other Persons, shall be protected and kept indemnified from any Damage or Inconvenience that may or can happen to them, for yielding Obedience to this Ordinance, or by the Not-prosecution of any just Suit or Action in the said Courts at Oxford, or any of them."

Names added the Committee in Norwich.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament, That Adrean Parmenter, Christopher Barrett, Samuell Smith, Thomas Baker, and John Tooley, Esquires, the Sheriff of Norwich for the Time being, John Thacker, Mathew Peckoner, Samuell Puckle, Linewell Sherwood, and Mathew Lynsey, Aldermen, be added to the Committee for the Weekly Assessments, and for sequestering of the Estates of Papists and notorious Malignants, within the County of the City of Norwich."

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 4a post meridiem.

Post meridiem.

PRAYERS.

Earl of Manchester, Speaker.

The Earl of Northumberland gave the House an Account what passed between His Majesty and the Committee at Oxford, since the last Account given to the Houses.

He presented divers Papers, which were read:

Papers relative to the Proceedings between the King and the Committees at Oxford.

1. His Majesty's Reply concerning his Return, April 15.

2. The King's further Answer concerning the Ships, April 15, 1643.

These Papers following were delivered to the Committee after the Twenty Days for the Treaty were expired; to which the Committee had no Instructions to answer:

3. His Majesty's Answer to the Reasons of the Committee, April 15.

4. Concerning Mr. Ashe's Cloaths.

5. Concerning the Scottish Commissioners, April 13. His Majesty not giving any Answer to this, they (fn. *) presented the other Part to His Majesty.

6. Concerning the Scotch Commissioners, (fn. †) April 15, 1643.

7. Next, the King's Answer was read:

"That Sir Frederick Cornwallis, whom His Majesty had sent to both Houses with a Message, was there laid by the Heels; and that He did much wonder that One of His Messengers should be so used; His Majesty thought that His Message to the Houses might be a sufficient Safe Conduct."

Ordered, That these Papers shall be communicated to the House of Commons, at a Conference; and the House of Commons to be desired, that their Committee concerning the Treaty may meet with the Committee of this House, and consider of these Papers; and to tell them, that their Lordships believe that the King was (fn. ‡) misinformed concerning Sir Frederick Cornwallis, because they know nothing of the Commitment of him, which they conceive the House of Commons would have made this House acquainted with, he being sent to both Houses.

Message to the H. C. for a Conference about them.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edw. Leech and Doctor Benett:

To desire a Conference, concerning some Papers presented to this House by the Earl of Northumb. brought from Oxon.

Lady Goring, a Pass.

Ordered, That the Lady Goringe shall have a Pass, to go and come from Nonsuch, to London, with a Coach and Six Horses.

Sir James Hamilton's Lieutenant, a Pass.

Ordered, The Lieutenant of Sir James Hamilton, with Three Servants, shall have a Pass, to travel to Chester, and from thence to go into Ireland.

Mons. D'Aubigeon's Servants, a Pass.

Ordered, That Monsieur D'Aubigeon's Two Servants, and his Necessaries, shall have a Pass, to go for France.

Mons. De Fontraille's, Ditto.

The like for Monsieur De Fontrailles, and Two Servants, and his Necessaries.

Mons. De Monthieson's, Ditto.

The like for Monsieur De Monthieson's Two Servants, and Necessaries.

The Messengers returned this Answer:

Answer from the H. C.

That the House of Commons will give a present Meeting, as is desired, in the Painted Chamber.

Earl of Northumberland's Account of the Proceedings between the King and the Committees at Oxford, concerning the Treaty, &c.

"At the Beginning of the Treaty, His Majesty mentioned what Disadvantage it was to Him, by Himself alone to treat with a Committee of both Houses, prepared with their Instructions and Reasons.

"He said, That this likewise was a great Disadvantage to Him, when that which He did was binding on His Part; but that which the Committee did was not binding until both Houses were sent unto, and their Directions known.

"He told us, That what was said by Him to us He would not be bound by it, except it were in Writing; and that Discourse on both Sides by Word of Mouth should stand for nothing.

"On Saturday the 15th of April, His Majesty told us, That neither of the Papers concerning the Scotch Commissioners, or Mr. Ashe's Cloaths, were any Part of the Treaty; and that He would send an Answer to them, by Messengers of His own, to the Houses.

"We told Him, That we had something further to offer to Him concerning the Scotch Commissioners, and presented the Second Paper to Him about that Business; which being read, the King said, That He had not denied that which we desired in the First Paper, and therefore said He (fn. *) would not take the Second; but He would send His Answer to the First, and then the Houses might send further if they should see Cause.

"Afterwards His Majesty told us, He heard that Sir Frederike Cornewallys, whom He had sent to both Houses with a Message, was there laid by the Heels; and that He did much wonder that One of his Messengers should be so used: He thought that His Message to the Houses might be a sufficient Safe Conduct."

Message from the H. C. to complain of Mr. Marten's being insulted by the Earl of Northumberland, returning from the Conference.

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Mr. Glyn; who said, "He was commanded by the House of Commons to tell their Lordships, That they have been always very tender of their Lordships Privileges, and are very desirous of the Continuance of a fair Agreement between both Houses; and they are very confident, that their Lordships will be tender of the Privileges of the House of Commons.

"That the House of Commons are informed, that this Day, at the Conference with the House of Commons, Mr. Marten, a Member of the House of Commons, being appointed by that House to be One of the Managers of the said Conference, who, as he was returning to the House of Commons from the said Conference (as all the Members of Parliament ought to do, without any Violation or Assault), he was assaulted in the Painted Chamber by a Peer of this House of great Worth, to wit, the Earl of Northumberland; which they hold to be a Breach of the Privilege of Parliament; and for this he was commanded by the House of Commons to desire Reparation for the same."

E. of Northumberland complains that Mr. Marten had opened his Letter from Oxford.

The Earl of Northumberland submitted himself to their Lordships Judgement in this Business; and desired their Lordships to take his Case first into Consideration, and give Reparation for the great Breach of Privilege done to this House, and the Injury done him by Mr. Marten, for opening his Lordships Letter sent from Oxford, without any Authority, he being a Peer of this House, and employed by this House as a Committee to treat with His Majesty, about the Affairs of the Kingdom.

The Answer returned was:

Answer to the H. C.

That this House will send them an Answer, by Messengers of their own, in convenient Time.

Conference to be had about it.

Then the House taking into Consideration the Fact done by Mr. Marten, in opening the Earl of Northumberland's Letter without any Authority, and considering the Earl of Northumb. as a Member of this House, and as a Person of that Capacity as he was in when this Fact was committed, being employed by this House to treat with His Majesty at Oxford about the great Affairs of the Kingdom, conceived this to be a great Breach and Violation to the Privileges of this House.

And the House Resolved, To have a Conference with the House of Commons To-morrow Morning, concerning the Privileges of this House, and to give them a Narrative of the whole Business.

Message to the H. C. for it.

A Message was sent to the House of Commons, by Sir Edward Leech and Mr. Doctor Bennett:

To desire a Conference To-morrow Morning, at Ten of the Clock, in the Painted Chamber, concerning the Matter of the last Message, and concerning the Privileges of this House.

The Earl of Manchester is to draw up the Narrative concerning this Business, and present it to the House To-morrow Morning.

The Messengers return with this Answer,

Answer from thence.

That the House of Commons will give a (fn. *) Conference, To-morrow.

The House was adjourned during Pleasure, and the Lords went to the Conference; which being ended, the House was resumed.

Message from the H. C. for Concurrence in the following Ordinance,

A Message was brought from the House of Commons, by Sir Henry Mildmay:

To desire their Lordships Concurrence in an Ordinance concerning some Forces that came out of Essex, staying at Watford.

The Ordinance was read, as followeth:

For Lord Grey's Forces from Essex to join the Earl of Essex.

"Ordered, by the Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled, That the Forces quartered at Watford, under the Command of the Lord Gray, which came out of Essex, do forthwith march out of the County of Hertford, to the Assistance of the Lord General the Earl of Essex, to be commanded by him as he shall give Order, notwithstanding that his Excellency now is and shall have Occasion to use their Service out of the Bounds of the Association."

Ordered, That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Order.

The Answer returned was:

Answer.

That this House agrees with the House of Commons in this Order now brought up.

Adjourn.

House adjourned till 9a cras.

Footnotes

* Origin. have seized.
* Origin. presenting.
Bis in Originali.
Origin. informed.
* Origin. was.
* Origin. a present.