Mr Winnington moves, That no Sugar, Paneels, Syrups, Molosses, Rum, or Spirits, except from the British-Colonies in America, be imported, but from Great Britain only. ; Debate thereon. ; Mr H. Walpole moves for an Amendment to the above Motion. ; Which is agreed to. ; Farther Debate relating to the Trade of the Sugar-Colonies.
Feb. 21. The House resolv'd itself into a Committee of the
whole House, to consider of the State of the Trade of his
Majesty's Sugar-Colonies in America; and Mr Winnington
moved for a Resolution, 'That no Sugar, Paneels, Syrups,
or Molosses, nor any Rum or Spirits, except of the Growth or
Manufacture of his Majesty's Sugar-Colonies in America,
should be imported into Ireland, but from Great Britain
only.' This Motion was opposed by Mr Carey, (fn. 1) Member
for Dartmouth, who said, 'That he would with all his
Heart join in any proper Measures, that could be proposed,
for encouraging our Sugar-Colonies, but he could not agree
to the altering the Laws as they then stood, with respect to
the Importation into Ireland: That the allowing of Rum so
be imported directly into Ireland from any of our Colonies
in the West-Indies, was with Design to discourage as much
as possible the Consumption of French Brandies in that Kingdom; which Design would be entirely over-thrown by the
Resolution proposed, if any new Law should now be
made in pursuance thereof; for if it should be made necessary to bring Rum to, and enter it in England, before it
could be carry'd to Ireland, it would very much enhance the
Price of that Commodity, by which the Consumption thereof would be discouraged and diminished, and the Consumption of French Brandies would consequently be increased:
That he thought it was unreasonable to lay such a Restriction on the Trade to Ireland, because that Kingdom was
a Part of our own Dominions, and contributed very considerably to the Riches and Power of England: That besides, if
a Law should be made in the Terms of the Resolution proposed, it would probably embroil us with some of our Neighbours: That he did not know but the French would look
upon it as a Breach of that Article of the Treaty of Utrecht,
by which it was stipulated, that the Trade between France
and us should remain on the same Footing it was on at that
Time: That the Portugueze would certainly look on it as a
Breach of the Treaties of Peace and Commerce subsisting
between us and them, because, by such a Law the Importation of Portugal Sugars directly into Ireland would be expresly prohibited.' He was answer'd by Mr Scrope, Member
for Bristol, who said in Support of the Motion, 'That as
to the enhancing of the Price of Rum in Ireland, and thereby discouraging the Consumption thereof in that Kingdom,
there was no such Consequence could ensue from the Resolution proposed, or from any Law that could be made in
Pursuance thereof, because there might still be as much Rum,
as was requisite for the Consumption in that Kingdom, imported directly thither from our own Sugar-Colonies in America; what was proposed by the Resolution moved for, was
only to prohibit the direct Importation of any of the Commodities mentioned therein, from any of the other Colonies
in America, and we had very good Reason for making such
a Prohibition, because it appeared that what was imported
directly into Ireland from the other Colonies, was generally
the Produce of the Foreign Sugar-Colonies in that Part of
the World, whereby the Trade of those Colonies was very
much encouraged and improved, to the Ruin of our own
Sugar-Colonies in America: That though we were to look
upon Ireland as a Part of our own Dominions, yet we ought
not to allow them to encroach upon any Branch of the Trade
of England: It was very well known that they were always
endeavouring to encroach upon our Trade; and if we did not
take Care to keep that Country under the Yoke, they might
in Time grow so rich as to be able to throw it off, which
they would perhaps willingly do, if ever it should happen
to be in their Power: That as to Portugal, some Words
might be put in, or some Proviso added, for obviating any
Exception that might be taken by them.' Hereupon Mr
Doddington said, 'That he was sorry to differ from his honourable Friend that sat by him, but that he had always look'd on
Prohibitions in Trade as of dangerous Consequence, and that
therefore no Prohibitions ought ever to be laid on it, but such
as are in their own Nature absolutely necessary: That we
had no Reason to be jealous of Ireland, or to lay them under
any Restraints and Prohibitions; that Country had always
appeared loyal and zealous for his Majesty, and for the present Royal Family; they had generally behaved as good Subjects, at least for many Years last past; and he believed the
best Way to keep them so, was to give them all proper Encouragement; and to shun as much as possible the laying them
under any particular Restraints or Disadvantages: That he
looked on that Kingdom in a very different Light from what
some other Gentlemen seemed to view it in; the People
thereof he always consider'd as a Part of ourselves, and he
hoped they, or at least the most of them, never did, nor ever
would look upon themselves as being under any Yoke, but
that of the Government, and the Laws of their Native
Country.' Mr Horatio Walpole observed next, 'That as to
what was proposed by the Regulation moved for, he could
perceive nothing therein contrary to the Treaties of Peace
and Commerce subsisting with Foreign Powers; 'twas a Regulation of Trade only within our own Dominions, and had
no Relation to that of our Neighbours: That if we were to
prohibit the Importation of any one of their Commodities into
any Part of the British Dominions, they might perhaps have
Reason to take it amiss; they might say, that such a Prohibition was an Infringement of some of the Stipulations subsisting between us; but what was now proposed, was not a
general Prohibition, it was only the appointing of such particular Places within our own Dominions for the Importation
of such Commodities, and prohibiting the importing of them
at some other Places: That as this regarded only our Trade
among ourselves, no foreign Power could take any just Exceptions thereto; but however, since there was no Design of
prohibiting the Importation of French Spirits, or Portugal
Sugars, directly into Ireland, therefore he would propose an
Amendment, and that the Resolution should be in the Terms
following, 'That no Sugar, Paneels, Syrups, or Molosses,
of the Growth, Product, or Manufacture of any of the Colo
nies or Plantations in America; nor any Rum or Spirits of
America, except of the Growth or Manufacture of his Majesty's Sugar-Colonies there, be imported into Ireland, but
from Great Britain only.' The Resolution being thus amended, it was agreed to without any Division; and then Mr
Winnington stood up again, and mov'd, 'That a Duty of
4 s. per Hundred Weight, Sterling Money, be laid on all
foreign Sugars and Paneels, imported into any of his Majesty's
Colonies or Plantations in America.' This was agreed to
without any Opposition. Then Colonel Bladen made the
two following Motions, viz. I. 'That a Duty of 6 d. per
Gallon, Sterling Money, be laid on all foreign Molosses and
Syrups imported into any of his Majesty's Colonies or Plantations in America: And II. That a Duty of 9 d. per
Gallon, Sterling Money, be laid on all foreign Rum imported into any of his Majesty's Colonies or Plantations in
America.'
Six Resolutions relating to the Sugar-Colony Trade.
Hereupon Sir John Barnard, in Opposition thereto, said,
'That as the Trade then stood between our Northern Colonies and the French Sugar Islands, it appeared, that our
Colonies bought Molosses of them at a very low Price, and
distilled them into Rum, by which they provided themselves
at a small Charge with the Rum that was necessary for them
in their Trade with the Indians, and in their Fishing-Trade;
they had, it was true, most of the Materials for making this
Rum from the French; but then the Manufacture was all
their own, and thereby a great many of our Subjects in that
Part of the World were employ'd and maintain'd: That by
laying such an high Duty on French Molosses, we should lay
them under a Necessity of manufacturing it themselves, so that
our Subjects would lose all that Employment, and instead of
buying Molosses in their natural Dress from the French, as
they did formerly, they would be obliged to purchase the
same Molosses manufactured into Rum, whereby the French
Sugar-Islands would take of them at least three times the Money they took formerly: That as Molosses was a bulky
Commodity, it would not be easy to run them into any of
our Northern-Colonies, so that the French would be laid under an absolute Necessity of manufacturing them into Rum,
and when manufactured into Rum, it would be easy to carry
that Rum, and sell it in a Smuggling Way to our FishingVessels at Sea, and even to run it into every one of our Colonies on the Continent of America: That the Sea-Coasts belonging to us in that Part of the World were of such a vast
Extent, and so many little Harbours and Creeks to be every
where met with, the Roads so little frequented, and the
Towns so open, that it would be impossible to prevent the
Running of French Rum on Shore, or the conveying it from
one Town to another after it is landed: No, not even if
we should send thither the whole Army of Excise-Officers
which we have here at home; the sending them thither
might, indeed, add a good deal to our Happiness in this
Country, but all of them together could be of no Service
for such a Purpose in that Country: That as to the laying a
Duty both on foreign Rum and Molosses, he would not be
altogether against it, but then it ought to be only a small
Duty, for the sake of giving an Advantage to our own Sugar-Colonies in that Respect, not such an high Duty as was
in a manner equal to a Prohibition; for that was really granting a Monopoly to our Sugar-Islands, with respect to a Commodity that is absolutely necessary for our Northern-Colonies,
both in their Fishing-Trade and in their Trade with the native Indians; and as the French were our Rivals likewise in
both those Trades, we were about giving them a certain Advantage as to these Trades, and that without doing them any
Harm as to their Sugar-Trade; for if they sold Sugar and
Rum cheaper than our Colonies did, they would have Vend
enough for all they could make; they would have a stolen
Market for it in the British Dominions, and an open Market in all other Parts of the World.' To this Colonel Bladen answer'd, 'That he had often heard our Army of Excise-Officers set in a very terrible Light, and represented as
of the most dangerous Consequence to the Liberties of the
Nation, but now he heard it urged that this whole Army would not be able to reduce our Northern-Colonies;
and he was sure, if they were not, there was no Fear of
their being able to reduce this Nation: But without sending any of that Army to America, he hoped there would
be no such Thing as Smuggling in that Part of the World;
it was to prevent such a pernicious Practice, that he proposed only laying a Duty on foreign Rum; he did not propose a Prohibition, and the Duty he had proposed was no
higher, than what was absolutely necessary for putting our
own Sugar-Islands on an equal Foot with the French.' Sir
John Barnard reply'd, 'That he had said, that our whole
Army of Excisemen would not be able to prevent the Running of French Rum in that Country; he did not talk of
reducing the Country, he had not so much as mentioned the
Word, but he believed it would be much easier to reduce
the Country, than to prevent the Running of French Rum
in it, in case what was then proposed should take Effect:
That if the Gentleman really meant to prevent Running, he
was very unfortunate in what he had proposed, for he had
proposed the only Method that could be thought on, for
setting up and encouraging the Smuggling-Trade; which
was that of laying on a high Duty, equal to, if not above, the
first Price of the Commodity upon which it was laid.' Then
the Question being put, the three foregoing Motions were severally agreed to without any Division. After this, the two
following Motions were agreed to without any Opposition, I. 'That all the Duties charged on the Importation of
all Sugars and Paneels of the Growth, Product and Manufacture of his Majesty's Colonies and Plantations in America, into Great Britain, be drawn back on Exportation of
the same.' II. 'That a Drawback or Allowance of 2 s.
per Hundred Weight on all Sugars, refined in and exported
from Great Britain, be paid on the Exportation thereof,
over and above all Drawbacks or Bounties now payable thereon,' This last Resolution was seconded by Sir John Barnard, who said, 'That he would agree to that as well as
the other Resolution with all his Heart, for that the two last
were the only Resolutions they had come to, which, in his
Opinion, would be of any real Use to our Sugar-Colonies;
and particularly the last Resolution he was glad to see moved, because he hoped it would make them think of some
other Things relating to our Trade, which stood in need of
some such Redress from Parliament: That there were several
foreign Materials imported into this Kingdom, liable to Duties on Importation, which Duties were drawn back, if the
Materials were again exported in the same Shape; but if manufactured and made more valuable by the Labour of our
own People, neither the Merchant nor the Manufacturer could
draw back the Duties, even though they should afterwards
export the same, and could shew that this Manufacture was
made of Materials that had paid a Duty on Importation;
and would have had a Drawback on Exportation, if they
had been carried out rough as they were brought in: That
this was a scandalous Oversight when these Duties were first
imposed, but it was much more scandalous that in so long
a Time this Oversight had never been amended: That
there were several Examples of this Oversight could be given,
but he would then only mention the Duties on foreign
Hemp, Flax, Cordage, &c. which were drawn back if the
Goods should be exported in the same Condition they were
imported: But if these very Goods should, by the Labour
and Industry of our own People, be manufactured into Cables,
Ropes, and other Tackle for Shipping, and then exported,
the Exporter could not have any Drawback: That this
was a great Loss to that Branch of our Trade, which was a
very considerable Branch, but would be much more considerable if it were not for this Hardship it laboured under.'
A Bill passed in Pursuance thereof.
These Resolutions being all agreed to as above recited,
a Bill was ordered to be brought in pursuant thereto, which
afterwards passed into a Law.
The Pension-Bill passes the Commons, and is again lost in the House of Lords.
The same Day the Pension Bill was read the third Time
and pass'd; and Mr Sandys was ordered to carry it up to
the House of Lords, where it met with the same Fate as in
the two last Sessions.
Sir. R. Walpole's Motion for issuing 500,000 l. out of the Sinking-Fund, for the Service of the Year 1733.
Feb. 23. The House resolv'd itself into a Committee of
the whole House, to consider farther of Ways and Means
for raising the Supply; the Account of the Money then
remaining in the Exchequer, and of the Produce of the Sinking-Fund disposable by Parliament, having with others been
referred to the said Committee, Sir Robert Walpole stood
up, and spoke as follows;
Debate thereon.
Sir,
'In the last Session of Parliament, this House came to a
Resolution, which, in my Opinion, was a good and most
reasonable Resolution; and that was to ease the Landed Interest of one Shilling in the Pound upon the Land-Tax, by
granting in Lieu thereof, a Duty on Salt for three Years,
[See p. 236] By this the Landed Interest, which has for so
many Years borne so great a Share of the Publick Expence,
has in this last Year found a most sensible Ease; and if any
Method can be fallen on for continuing this Ease to them,
such Method ought certainly to be followed. As I had,
last Session of Parliament, the Honour of moving for that Resolution, the Approbation I then met with encourages me
now to offer to your Consideration another Motion, which
I hope will be equally agreeable, and that is, that it may
be resolved, 'That it is the Opinion of this Committee,
that towards raising the Supply granted to his Majesty, there
be issued and applyed the Sum of 500,000 l. out of such
Monies as have arisen from the Surplusses, Excesses, or Overplus Money, commonly called the Sinking-Fund, over
and above what hath been applyed to the Payment of one
Million, towards discharging the National Debt, pursuant
to an Act of the last Session of Parliament.' This Motion,
I hope, will meet with the Approbation of this House; for
it has always been my Opinion, and I believe it will be
granted by every Man, that the Publick Expence ought always to be raised according to that Method, which is the
least burthensome to the People: By this Method we shall
provide for a great Part of the current Service of the Year,
without laying any Burthen whatever on the People, and
without doing Injustice to any Man, or to any Set of Men:
The Case of the Creditors of the Publick is now very much
altered from what it was; the Competition among them is
not now which of them shall be first paid, but which of
them shall be the last to be paid; and therefore Gentlemen
need not now apprehend, that any of the publick Creditors
will look upon the House's agreeing to this Motion as an
Injustice done them, or as any Hardship put upon them;
on the contrary, they will look upon it as a Favour, and
would be glad that a much larger Part of that Fund were
to be apply'd in the same Manner. This Motion ought
the rather to be agreed to, more especially by those who
have a Regard for the Landed-Interest, because we can
thereby continue to the Landed-Gentlemen that Ease which
we granted them last Year; whereas if this Motion shall
appear not to be agreeable to the Committee, then I, or
some other Member of this House, must move for a
Land-Tax of Two Shillings in the Pound, there not being, so far as I know, any other Way or Means left of providing for the current Service of the Year.'
Mr W. Pulteney.
This Motion occasioned a long Debate, and Mr William
Pulteney hereupon made the following Speech:
Sir,
'Though I was aware of the Motion now made by the
honourable Gentleman fitting near me, yet I was in Hopes
that what he has now moved for, was not all he was to open
this Day to the Committee we are now in; and therefore I
shall conclude with a Motion of a different Kind from what
the Gentleman has been pleased to make to us. But, Sir,
there is another Thing, a very terrible Affair impending!
A monstrous Project! Yea, more monstrous than has ever
yet been represented! It is such a Project, as has struck Terror into the Minds of most Gentlemen within this House,
and into the Minds of all Men without Doors, who have
any Regard to the Happiness or the Constitution of their
Country, I mean, Sir, that Monster, the Excise ! That
Plan of Arbitrary Power, which is expected to be laid before this House in the present Sessions of Parliament. This,
I say, is expected, and therefore I am for having the Whole
of that Gentleman's Designs laid before this Committee at
once, and a sufficient Time given for us to consider the
Whole, before we come to a Resolution on any Part.
'Of late Years Gentlemen have been led, I do not know
how, into a new Method of proceeding in Parliament, a
Method very different from what our Ancestors did always
observe. In former Times, the general or particular Grievances were first examined, consider'd, and redress'd in Parliament, before they enter'd upon the granting of any Supplies; but lately we have been led into a Method of granting all the Money necessary for the Publick Service, among
the first Things we do. The Malt-Tax Bill, the Land-Tax
Bill, and such Bills, are now in every Session the first Things
that appear upon the Journals of this House; and when these
Things are finished, the Gentlemen in the Administration
generally look on the whole Business of the Session to be over.
If this House should then enter upon any disagreeable Inquiries into Grievances, we might then perhaps be told, that
the Season was too far spent; that it was necessary for Gentlemen to return home to mind their private Affairs; we
might probably be obliged to defer to another Session, what
the Welfare of this Nation required to be determined in the
present. I hope Gentlemen will consider this, and that they
will again begin to follow the wise Method observed by our
Ancestors, and keep some Security in our own Hands for
our Sitting, 'till we have heard and redressed all the Grievances of our Fellow-Subjects. There are several Things
which we ought to examine into, before this Session shall be
concluded. Does not every Gentleman know? Does not
every Gentleman expect that there is an Application to be
made to us from the South-Sea Company? That Company
has now made Choice of a Set of honest Proprietors to be the
Directors of their Affairs; they are inquiring into the
State of that Company's Affairs, and they must inquire into
the Management of their Affairs for some Time past: In
both these they will stand in need of a Parliamentary Relief,
and in both it ought to be granted them.
'The honourable Gentleman addresses himself in a very
particular Manner to the Landed Interest; I hope every
Gentleman in this House has a Regard for the Landed Interest; but I hope the Landed Gentlemen of this House are
not to be bully'd into any Ministerial Jobs, by telling them,
that if they do not agree to such a Motion, a Land-Tax of
Two Shillings in the Pound must be moved for. I hope,
Sir, the Landed Gentlemen will never be induced to consent
to any Thing that may undo the Nation, and overturn the
Constitution for so small a Bribe, so trifling a Consideration,
as that of being free from the Payment of One Shilling in the
Pound Land-Tax, and for one Year only. The Landed
Gentlemen of this Nation have often ventur'd their All in
their Country's Cause; and it is an Indignity offer'd to them,
to imagine, that paying or not paying such a Trifle as One
Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax, will be of any Weight with
them, when it comes in Competition with the Welfare and
Happiness of their Country.
'The Sinking-Fund, that sacred Deposit for extinguishing
the Debts and abolishing the Taxes, which lie so heavy on
the Trade and the People of this Nation, ought never to be
touched; no Consideration whatever ought to prevail with
us to convert that Fund to any Use, but that for which it was
originally design'd. It has of late been too often robb'd; I
beg Pardon, Sir, Robbing is a harsh Word, I will not say
robbed; but I must say, that upon several Occasions there
have been considerable Sums snipped away from it: Upon
the Demise of his late Majesty, a large Sum was taken
from the Sinking-Fund, and apply'd to the Civil-List: By
the taking off the Salt-Duty, another large Yearly Sum was
taken away from that Fund; and the People are now again
charged with that Duty, but no Restitution has been made
to the Sinking-Fund. Thus, Sir, there has been already
a very large Sum taken from it at several Times, and now it
is proposed to snip off it 500,000 l. at once. At this Rate,
the People of this Nation must for ever groan under the
Load of Taxes they are now subject to; and our Trade, as
long as we have any left, must labour under the Difficulties
and Discouragements it is now exposed to. Is this consistent
with the Welfare or Happiness of the Nation? Is this the
Method by which the Landed-Gentlemen are to be cased of
One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax?
'The honourable Gentleman has been called, and once had
the Vanity to call himself, the Father of the Sinking-Fund;
but if Solomon's Judgment was right, he who is thus for
splitting and dividing the Child can never be deemed to be
the true Father. He may claim, and I shall allow him the
Honour of being the Father of two other Children lately
brought forth in this Nation, a Standing-Army, and an Excise;
but as for the Sinking-Fund, he seems now to renounce all
Pretences of being the Father thereof. I shall not now enter
farther into the Merits of the Motion that the honourable
Gentleman has been pleased to make, because I hope a proper Time will be allow'd for Gentlemen to consider of a
Question of so great Consequence; and therefore I shall conclude with a Motion for the Chairman to leave the Chair.'
Mr R. Walpole.
Hereupon Sir Robert Walpole stood up again, and made
the following Reply.
Sir,
'As for the Gentleman's saying, that I had once the
Vanity of calling myself the Father of the Sinking-Fund,
I must say, that whether I was vain of being thought so or
no, I remember a Time when the establishing that Fund was
treated as a monstrous Project, and then I was obliged to
father it; but no sooner was it found out to be a good and a
right Thing, and a Project that was both seasible and agreeable to the Interest of this Nation, but other Gentlemen
endeavoured to rob the real Father, whoever he was, of the
Glory of being the Father of that Child. As for the other
monstrous Project so much talk'd of, which some Gentlemen
now endeavour to shew in so terrible a Light, I doubt not
but that in a little Time it will appear in a quite different
Shape to the impartial and unprejudiced Part of the Nation:
Let it be what it will, I am resolved to propose it; and if
I have but a very little Time, I shall lay it before you for
your Consideration: I have no Doubt, but that upon a
thorough Examination, it will be found to be for the general
Interest of the Nation, and for the Advantage of every fair
Trader in particular; and this I am so much convinced of,
that I believe I may live to have it told me, that I was not
the Father of it, but that other People had thought of it before
me. I never as yet was inclined to do that which I thought was
ill; I am afraid of doing so; but I never shall be afraid of
doing well; I never shall be afraid of doing Good, either to
my Country, or to private Men, so far as is consistent with
the Interest of my Country. As for the Sums which have
been taken from the Sinking Fund, and added to the Civil-List,
they were not taken from it by me, they were taken from it by
the Authority of this House; I was only one of those who
consented to it; and particularly as to the Sum which was
taken from the Sinking-Fund upon the Demise of the late
King, and given to the Civil-List, the honourable Gentleman,
who sits near me, agreed to it as well as I did; both of us
did agree to it, but our Motives for agreeing were perhaps
very different.
'The Sinking Fund was established for the Payment of the
Debts of the Nation, but still it was left subject to the Disposal of Parliament; if upon any Occasion it shall appear
that a Part of it may be more properly applied to some other
Use, the Legislature has certainly a Power to apply it in
that Manner, which they shall judge to be most for the Publick Good, and for the Interest of the Nation in general.
This is the proper Question now under our Consideration;
we are now to determine, Whether the Sum of 500,000 l.
shall be apply'd this Year towards the Ease of the Landed
Interest, where it is very much wanted, where it is absolutely necessary to give some Relief; or if the whole shall be
this Year applied towards the Payment of the publick Creditors, who stand in no need of such Payment, who do not so
much as wish or desire it. This is the plain State of the
Question; and I could hardly have expected that this would
have stood a Debate.'
Sir J. Barnard.
Sir John Barnard spoke next.
Sir,
'As to the Project, which the honourable Gentleman on
the Floor seems to be afraid of being robb'd of the Glory
of, I believe he may be very easy in that Respect; for whatever he has met with in other Cases, he need not be under
any Apprehensions as to this; for my Part, I am so far from
believing that, when it appears in Publick, it will procure
either Honour or Glory to the first Projector, whoever he
be, that I am firmly convinced it will turn out to his eternal
Shame and Dishonour; and that the more the Project is examin'd, and the Consequences thereof consider'd, the more
the Projector will be hated and despised.
'But as to the Question now before us, it affords me a most
melancholy Consideration; I own that the Landed Interest,
as well as every other Interest, stands very much in need of
Relief; I allow that, by what the Gentleman now proposes,
the Landed Interest may meet with some immediate Ease;
and I will likewise easily grant, that it may, in our present
Circumstances, be agreeable to the Creditors of the Publick;
but while I have the Honour to be a Member of this House,
I am not to consider the immediate Ease of the Landed-Interest in particular, nor the present Pleasure of the Publick
Creditors; I am to consider the Welfare of the Nation in
general, both as to the present and as to future Times; and
as I am convinced that what is now proposed will, in the
long Run, be contrary to the Interest of the Nation in general, I therefore must give my Dissent thereto.
'In all Affairs which come before this House, we are to
have a due Regard to Posterity; we are in Honour and Duty bound to consider the future Happiness of the Nation, as
well as the present; and the Question now before us is,
Whether we shall give a present Ease to the Landed-Interest
of One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax, by unjustly loading our Posterity with the Payment of 500,000 l. and the
Interest thereof from this present Year? Or, whether we shall
continue to pay the One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax,
and thereby free the Nation of a Debt of 500,000 l. and
ourselves and our Posterity of a new Debt of 20,000 l. which
must be yearly incurred by this Nation, for the Payment of
the Interest upon that Debt, 'till the principal Sum be satisfy'd and paid. This is the Question before us, and every
Man, who has a Regard to Posterity or to the future Happiness of his native Country, must easily determine what
Side he is to take: This is the Light it ought to be considered in; and whoever considers it in this Light, must
conclude, that what is proposed is robbing our Posterity
of 500,000 l. and the growing Interest thereof, for the sake of
a trifling present Ease to ourselves. If the Landed-Interest, or
any Interest, could be relieved by reducing the Publick Expence, it would redound to the Glory of him who had the
Honour of being the Author thereof; but to ease ourselves
by loading our Posterity, is a poor temporary Expedient of
short-sighted or self-interested Politicians; and the Author of
such an Expedient must expect the Curses of Posterity, and
can never expect present Thanks from any, but such as are
as short-sighted or as self-interested as himself.
'I hope I shall not now be taxed with affecting Popularity,
or with speaking Provincially, or as a Member for the City
of London, as I have often been upon other Occasions; for
as to the present Question, I consider it entirely in a National
View. As a Member of this House, I shall always look upon
myself as one of the Representatives of the People of Great
Britain, and I hope every Gentleman, who has the Honour
of being a Member of this House, will always do the same.
I hope it will never be in the Power of any Man, to make
the Landed-Interest range themselves in Opposition to the
Trading-Interest of this Nation; but if ever such a wicked
Design should take Effect, if the Members of this House
should ever be brought to talk and to vote Provincially, or
as Members for Cities or Boroughs, or Members for Counties; if the former were to join together against the latter, it
it is easy to determine on which Side the Majority would
be. The honourable Gentleman, who made the Motion, now
seems to aim at the Affectation of Popularity among the
Landed-Gentlemen of this Kingdom; this I am really surprized at, considering how often he has taxed me, and other
Members of this House, with the Affectation of Popularity,
as a most heinous Crime.
'The Creditors of the Publick are, perhaps, at present unwilling to be paid off, because they have a greater Interest
for their Money from the Publick, than they can have any
where else; this is one Reason, but not the principal Reason for it; for the chief Reason is, the Method and Manner
of paying them. If a considerable Part of their Debts were
to be paid at once, and a reasonable Notice given to them
of such Payments being to be made, they could then make
such an Arrangement of their Affairs, as to dispose of their
Money to as good an Advantage for themselves, and much
more to the Advantage of the Trade of this Nation: But in
the present Method of paying them, the Payments are so
small, and the Warning so short, that many of them do not
well know how to dispose of the small Sums they receive,
and therefore they are unwilling to receive any in that Manner: However, let their Inclinations be how they please, it
is certainly the Interest of the Nation to have them all paid
off, the sooner it is done, the happier it will be for the Nation; and therefore no Part of what is appropriated to their
Payment ought to be converted to any other Use: Their
Unwillingness to receive Payment, is so far from being an
Argument against paying them, that on the contrary it shews
that they have a better Bargain from the Publick, than they
can in the same Way have from any other Person; and therefore if it were possible to borrow Money at a lower Interest,
if it were possible to add to the Sinking-Fund, the Publick
ought certainly to do it, in order to pay off those who are
now Creditors of the Publick at so high a yearly Interest.
'I hope it will be thought that I am sincere in what I
say, since I am in every Respect talking against my own
private Interest; I have a Part of my Estate in Land, otherwise I could not have a Seat in this House; and as a Landholder, I ought, if I considered my own private Interest,
to be for the reducing of the Land-Tax. I have another
Part of my Estate in the Publick Funds; and consequently
I ought to be as fond as other Men of not being paid off,
and of having as high an Interest as I can possibly get from
the Publick; and the remaining Part of my Estate I have
in Trade, as to which also I speak against my own Interest;
for as a Trader I ought to be against the paying off of the
Publick Funds, because the Interest of Money will be there
by reduced. Though it may seem a Paradox, yet it is
certain, that the higher the Interest of Money is in any
Country, the greater Profit the private Trader will always
make; for in a Country where the Interest of Money is high,
the Traders will be but few, the general Stock in Trade
will be but small, but every Man, who is a Trader, must
make a great Profit of what Money he has in Trade.'
Mr Danvers.
Then Mr Danvers, Member for Bramber, stood up in Behalf of the Motion made by Sir Robert Walpole, and said,
'That he was so far from seeing the least Inconvenience in
what that honourable Member had proposed; that considering how little Occasion there was for paying off any of
the Publick Debts, he was surprized at his Modesty in asking
so little from the Sinking-Fund; That had he asked the
whole, it would have been but reasonable to have given it,
since it is for the Support of a Government, under
which we enjoy so many Blessings: That the Landed-Gentlemen bore the greatest Share of the late War, by which
all those Funds were created, out of which the Plumb-Men
of the City of London have made most of their Estates:
That the Landed-Interest having thus laboured long under
the greatest Distress, they ought to embrace every Opportunity to give it some Relief.'
Sir W. Wyndham.
Then Sir William Wyndham spoke against the Motion:
Sir,
'Though I have the Honour to sit in this House as a
Knight of a Shire, yet I look on myself as one of the Representatives of the whole Body of the People of England;
and therefore I shall never endeavour to find out a Distinction, between the Interest of the Landed-Gentlemen and
that of the Nation in general; such Endeavours I know to
be vain, and whoever does endeavour it, will soon find himself disappointed in his Design. I know that since last Session of Parliament, it has been most industriously given about in the County, which I have the Honour to represent,
'O Gentlemen! The Knight of your Shire was against easing
you of One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax.' Whether this
was done with a Design to do me Service or Disservice, I
shall not determine; but if it was done with Design to do me
a Disservice, I shall leave those who did it to brag of their
Success. For my own Part, I am so conscious that my Behaviour in that Affair last Session of Parliament was right,
that were I to plead Merit with my Constituents upon any
one Vote I ever gave in this House, it would be upon my
way of voting in that very Affair; for I shall always be against sacrificing the publick Happiness of the Nation, or
the Security of our Constitution, to any such mean and sordid Views as that of a little present Ease in the Land-Tax;
and I hope every Landed Gentleman, whom I have the Honour to represent, is now and always will be of the same
Opinion.
'The Sinking-Fund is a Fund I have always had the greatest Veneration for; I look on it as a Sacred Fund, appropriated to the relieving the Nation from that Load of Debts
and Taxes it now groans under; I take it to be so absolutely
appropriated to that Use, that if upon any pressing and unlook'd-for Emergency, we should be necessarily obliged to
borrow a little from it, the same with Interest ought to be
repaid by some Tax to be raised within the Year. I have,
indeed, been always afraid that some enterprizing Minister
might be tempted to seize upon it, or some Part of it, in
Time of War; but I little dreamt of seeing any Attempts
made upon it in a Time of the most profound Tranquility.
It is to me a melancholy Consideration to think of the present vast Load of the National Debt; a Debt of no less than
forty five Millions and upwards, and that all contracted since
the Revolution! This must be a melancholy Consideration to
every Gentleman, that has any Concern for his Country's
Happiness; but if the Motion now made to us shall be agreed
to, how dismal will this Consideration be render'd, when we
reflect upon the little Appearance that there will then be of
this Debt's ever being paid? Is the publick Expence never
to be lessen'd? Are the People of England always to pay
the same heavy and grievous Taxes? Surely, Sir, if there is
ever a Time to be looked for of easing the People of this
Nation, the present is the Time for doing it: But when I
reflect upon what was done last Session of Parliament, I am
really afraid of proposing any Relief for the poor Manufacturers and Labourers of this Nation; I do not think we can
trust ourselves. The Salt-Duty was taken off by this House,
as a Tax the most grievous to the Labourer and to the Poor
of this Nation, and the Sinking-Fund was thereby diminished: For the Relief of the Poor we did consent to this Encroachment on that Sacred Fund; but that very Tax was
again laid on, because some Gentlemen pretended to have
found out, that the Landed Gentlemen of England were poorer than the Poor. At this Rate the whole Sinking-Fund may
by Degrees be exhausted, and the Poor of the Nation not
relieved from any one Tax they now groan under.
'Last Year the Salt-Duty was laid on for three Years, in
lieu of One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax for one Year,
and this was pretended to be a Relief to the Landed Interest;
but it was then evidently made appear, that it was no Relief
even to any Landed Gentleman in England, unless he was
a Man of a plentiful Land-Estate; and it was then also made
appear, that the People of the Nation were to pay above a
Million, for the 500,000 l. then saved in the Pockets of
the Landed Gentlemen. And now this Year the Sum of
500,000 l. is to be taken from the Sinking-Fund, in lieu of
One Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax; this is likewise pretended to be a Relief, but, upon a strict Examination, it will
be found to be much such another Relief as that of last
Year. We are to save this Year in the Pockets of the Landed Gentlemen 500,000 l. but this Sum must hereafter be paid
by the Nation some Time or other. If it be paid next Year,
we then pay 520,000 l. for it; if not 'till Two Years hence
we pay upwards of 540,000 l. and if it is not paid 'till Fifteen or Sixteen Years hence, by computing Interest upon Interest which in such Cases must always be done, the Nation
must then pay above a Million for the 500,000 l. Ease, now
pretended to be given to the Landed Gentlemen. This is
the least Sum that it will cost the Nation; but if to this we
add what might be saved by the abolishing of some of those
Taxes, which now lie heavy upon Trade and which cost the
Nation more in levying than the neat Produce ever amounts
to; then it will appear, that the Nation must be infinitely a
greater Loser by this Ease now pretended to be given to the
Landed Interest. Let any Landed Gentleman consider this,
and at the same Time let him consider, that the Lands of
Great Britain stand ultimately obliged to pay all the Debts
we owe, in case our present Funds should fail, which they
may probably do by the Decay of our Trade, if it continues
long under the Difficulties it at present labours under; let any
Landed Gentleman, I say, consider this; and then let him
determine whether he and his Posterity owe Thanks to the
Gentlemen, who now pretend to be so great Friends to the
Landed Interest.
'What can those Gentlemen say, who are thus for loading
Posterity? Can they imagine that there will ever be a Time
of more profound Tranquility? Can they imagine that there
will ever be a less Occasion for Publick Expence? Or can
they imagine that our Posterity will be in much better Circumstances than we are? I am sure, if we suppose the last,
we must shew more Regard to the Trade of the Nation than
has been shewn for some Time past; we must think of relieving the poor Tradesmen and Manufacturers from the
many and various Kinds of Taxes they now groan under;
and we must avoid all Occasions of loading the Publick with
the Payment of Interest, by providing within the Year for
the current Service of the Year: To this the Motion now
made is directly contrary; for the not paying off of an old
Debt is the same with contracting a new; and subjects the
Nation to the same Expence with respect to the Payment of
Interest. But I shall not trouble Gentlemen any farther upon
this Subject at present, because I hope we shall have another
Day to consider of this Question; and therefore I shall conclude with seconding the Motion for the Chairman's leaving
the Chair.'
Mr H. Pelham.
Sir William Wyndham was answer'd by Mr Henry Pelham.
Sir,
'As other Gentlemen have their melancholy Considerations, so I have mine; the most melancholy Consideration
I have is, that notwithstanding our having a Government,
under which we enjoy our Laws, our Liberties, and our
Religion, to the utmost Extent; yet it is absolutely necessary
to put the Nation to a very great annual Charge, in order
to support that Government against the Foreign Enemies
of both our Constitution and Religion, supported and encouraged by our Factions and Divisions at Home: This is the
Reason that we cannot, by a Saving in the publick Charge,
give that Ease to the Landed Interest, which is become absolutely necessary to be given; and since we cannot, with
any Safety to the Constitution, or to the present happy
Establishment, give that Ease by a Saving in the publick annual Expence, we must therefore resolve to give it in that
Manner which will be least burthensome to the People, and
that I take to be the Method which is now proposed to us.
'Gentlemen may talk as they please of what was done
in last Session of Parliament, but I can say that in all Places
where I have since been, I have had the Pleasure of receiving
the universal Thanks of the People, for the Ease then given
to the Landed Interest; and whatever Gloss may now be put
upon that Affair, yet I know that some Gentlemen, who
appeared against it, were heard to say at the Time that that
Affair was first mention'd, 'This is a most damnable Project! It will please the Country too much, and therefore
we must endeavour to render it abortive.' I will, indeed,
do the Gentlemen the Justice to believe, that they then spoke
as they thought; and they then did what they could to
prevent the Success of a Design, by which his Majesty's
Administration has gained the Favour and the Esteem of
the Generality of the Landholders in England.
'I have as great a Regard for Posterity and for the future Happiness of the Nation, as any Gentleman in this
House; and therefore I shall never be against any Thing,
that is absolutely necessary for conveying to Posterity the
many Blessings we now enjoy under the present happy Establishment. What is now proposed is not a throwing of any
new Load upon Posterity; it is only a disposing of that
Money which always has been, and still is at the Disposal of
Parliament: We have a Right to dispose of it, in that Manner
which we think most conducive to the general Interest of
the Nation; and what is now proposed is only an Exercising of that Right, and thereby granting an Ease to the most
oppressed Part of his Majesty's Subjects, at a Time when
there is no pressing Demand for applying the Money, either
to that Use for which it was at first intended, or to any
other Use whatever. This is a Question that, in my Opinion, requires no Time to consider of; it is granted by
every Gentleman who has spoke in this Debate, that the
Creditors of the Publick do not desire to have their Money;
and it is likewise granted that the Landed Interest stand in
great Need of Relief; it cannot therefore be doubted, but
that the Parliament may, and ought to apply at least a Part
of that, which is not so much as wished for by the Publick
Creditors, to the Relief of those who are now in so great Distress, especially since no Relief can be given to them by
any other Means; for which Reason, I shall be for agreeing with the Motion made by the honourable Gentleman
near me.'
Mr Waller.
Mr Waller stood up next, and spoke against the Motion,
as follows:
Sir,
'It is known, I believe, by every Gentleman in the
House, that Scotland pays little or no Part of what is raised
for the Use of the Sinking-Fund, and for the small Part
they do, or ought to contribute towards that Fund, they
have already receiv'd an Equivalent; so that by what is
now proposed to us, that Part of the Nation is not to contribute a Shilling towards this 500,000 l. which is to be
apply'd for the current Service of the Year: Now, I should
be glad to know, by what Article of the Union they are to
be free from paying any Part of so large a Sum, for the
current Service of the Year. I find, by some Accounts
call'd for, and now lying on our Table, that there has
been but a very little paid by the People of that Part of
the Island, towards the Support of the Government; and I
believe that the little that has been paid, has generally been
distributed away among themselves, in Pensions, Rewards,
and Gratuities.'
Mr Taylor.
Mr Taylor, Member for Petersfield observ'd, 'That there
are some People in the Nation, who the more they owe the
greater Advantage they make, and the richer they grow;
such are the Bankers: That by the Motion made to the House,
one would imagine some Gentlemen took the Case of the
Nation to be the same; but for his Part, he could not think so,
and therefore differ'd from the Motion.'
Sir R. Walpole's Motion for issuing 500,000 l. out of the Sinking-Fund, for the Service of the current Year, agreed to in the Committee. ; One Shilling in the Pound voted for the Land-Tax.
Then the Question was put, That the Speaker should
leave the Chair; which being pass'd in the Negative, by 245
against 135, the Question was put upon the first Motion, and
carry'd without any Division: After which it was resolv'd,
without Opposition, That towards raising the Supply granted
to his Majesty, the Sum of one Shilling in the Pound be laid
upon Land for the Year 1733.
A Motion being made, for agreeing with the Committee in the Resolution relating to the Sinking-Fund, it occasions a fresh Debate.
Feb. 26. The above Resolutions of the Committee were
reported to the House; and a Motion being made, for agreeing with the Committee as to the first Resolution, the same
was oppos'd by Mr Sandys, who on that Occasion spoke as
follows:
Mr. Sandys.
Mr Speaker,
'Notwithstanding the long Debate that was in the Committee upon this Resolution, yet I cannot now let it pass
without taking Notice of the bad Consequences it may be
attended with. The perpetual Method heretofore, of providing for the current Service of the Year, has been to grant
annual Supplies to be raised by Taxes which were granted
for that Purpose, and consequently were granted only for
one Year; at the Expiration of that Year they were at an
End, and none of the Officers of the Crown durst pretend to
levy them any longer on the People: It would have been
High Treason for any Officer to levy any such Tax, after the
Expiration of the Year for which it was granted by Parliament. By this Method our Kings have always been under a
Necessity of calling Parliaments frequently; if the King
wanted a Supply, there was not a Tax subsisting by Law,
out of which he could get it, and therefore he was obliged
to call a Parliament to grant him a new Supply, and to
impose a new annual Tax for that Purpose; of this Nature is the Land-Tax; it has always been one of those
Taxes which were granted for the current Service of the Year,
and for that Reason has never been granted for more than
one Year at a Time. But what are we now about to do?
We are going to depart from this laudable Method always
observed by our Ancestors; We are going to give up that
Tax which we have always in our own Hands, and which
we may grant or not as we see Occasion; and in the room
thereof we are going to substitute a Tax, or at least a Method of providing for the current Service of the Year, which
we have not in our Power; the Taxes by which the Sinking-Fund is raised, being all granted for ever, and may be
levied on the People without any new Authority from Parliament. By this Method we clearly point out a Way, by which
some future ambitious Prince may provide for the current Service of the Year, without the Assistance of Parliament; from
whence he may judge that Parliaments are unnecessary,
and will certainly lay them aside as soon as he finds them
troublesome. By those Taxes granted for the Sinking-Fund,
which his Officers may levy according to the Laws in being,
he finds himself provided of a Revenue sufficient to support
his Government, without the Assistance of Parliaments; and
therefore he will resolve to govern without them, if they but
once begin to thwart any of his Measures.
'I know it will be told me, that it would be as illegal and
criminal, to apply the Revenue of the Sinking-Fund to the
current Service of the Year, without the Authority of Parliament, as it would be to levy Taxes without any such Authority: But there is a very great Difference between the
two Cases; in levying a Tax contrary to Law, every Officer employ'd knows that he acts with a Rope about his
Neck, and therefore it would be difficult for the most powerful Prince to get Officers that would be employ'd in the
levying such Taxes; whereas in levying those Taxes appropriated to the Sinking-Fund, every Under-Officer acts according to Law, there is no Man guilty of any Crime as to
the levying of them; there are none guilty but a few of
the chief Officers, who agree to or connive at the Misapplication.
'Another material Difference there is between those two
Cases. The levying of any Tax, contrary to Law, gives immediately the Alarm to the whole Nation both poor and
rich; every Man thinks he is robb'd of his Property, if he
is obliged to pay the most trifling Tax, without the Authority
of Parliament; and as the whole People in the Nation
would on such an Occasion take the Alarm, so it would be
easy to stop such a Prince in the Beginning of his tyrannical
Career, before he could have Time to fix himself in Arbitrary
Power. But though an ambitious Prince and his Ministers
should misapply the Produce of the Sinking-Fund, by converting it to the current Service of the Year, the Body of the
People would be no ways alarmed; they would not think
themselves any way hurt, because they would find that they
were not obliged to pay any Taxes, but those which they
knew to be due by Law; on the contrary, they would probably be well pleased with the new Sort of Government,
because they would find themselves, for some Time at least,
free from the Payment of those Taxes which had formerly
been annually raised by Parliament; and thus, before the
Body of the People could be made sensible of the Tyranny
they were under, the Arbitrary Power of the Prince would
be established, and the Fetters of Slavery riveted upon the
People. I cannot but dread the Consequences of the Resolution now before us, and therefore I could not let slip this
Opportunity of again declaring my Dissent to it.'
Mr Danvers moves for clearing the Galleries of all Strangers. ; Mr Shippen.
Mr Shippen then rising up, Mr Danvers moved for clearing the Galleries of all such as were not Members, which
being done accordingly, Mr Shippen made the following
Speech.
Mr. Speaker,
'There was no Occasion for so great and solemn a Preparation for what I have to say; but as I did not take the
Liberty to give you any Trouble in the Committee, I will
now beg Leave to say a few Words to the Question before us.
'I have, in many former Debates in this House, heard
Parliamentary Faith often mention'd, and much insisted on.
Particularly I remember, that last Session of Parliament,
when it was proposed that Scotland should pay equally with
England, towards a Duty which was then raised, or rather
revived, and apply'd to the current Service of the Year, a
certain honourable Gentleman told us, and insisted much upon
it, that it was a Breach of Parliamentary Faith. I wonder
to see that Gentleman, who was last Year so nice an Observer
of Parliamentary Faith, now so forward for committing what
I take to be a real Breach of Parliamentary Faith.
'I remember the Time when the Law, which we are now
going to break through, was brought into this House; I remember that the Gentleman, who brought it in, introduced
it with the greatest Solemnity: He told us, that it was to be
looked on as a Fundamental Law of the Realm, and that
therefore it was to be always had in the greatest Reverence
and Esteem; that no Attempt was ever to be made for encroaching upon or altering it; that it was a Law which was
always to be deemed sacred; and that the Surpluses or Excesses of the Funds thereby established were always to be
religiously preserved, and appropriated to the paying off the
Debts of the Nation. He then said, That it was upon the
strict and religious Observance of this Law, that the Credit
and the future Happiness and Glory of this Nation entirely
depended; and in pursuance of what he said, the Words of
the Law were made very plain and express, 'That all the Excesses and Surpluses there mention'd, should be appropriated
to the discharging the Principal and Interest of such National
Debts, as were incurred before the 25th of December 1716,
and were declared to be National Debts, and not provided
for by Parliament, in such Manner as should be directed by
any future Act, and to or for no other Use whatever.'
These are the Words of that Law, and by these Words
it is plain, that the Sinking-Fund is not absolutely at the
Disposal of Parliament; the Parliament may direct what
Debts are to be paid off, but the Parliament cannot direct
those Surpluses and Excesses to any other Use besides that of
paying the National Debts before the Year 1716, without
repealing that Law; and as all the Publick Creditors have
as much a Right to have their Principal paid as their Interest, we certainly cannot divert that Fund which is appropriated for the Payment of their Principal, without their
Consent, no more than we can divert those Funds which are
appropriated towards the Payment of their Interest; it is a
Breach of Parliamentary Faith in the one Case as well as in
the other. It is to be presumed, that it was upon the Faith
of this Law, that so many became soon afterwards Purchasers
of our publick Funds, by which we have since been enabled
to reduce the Interest payable upon them, and have thereby
considerably increased this same Sinking-Fund; and can it
be said, that Parliamentary Faith is observed towards those
Purchasers, if without their Consent that Law be broke
through, which was the greatest, perhaps the only Temptation for them to purchase?
'I am really surprized to hear Gentlemen argue as they
do upon the present Subject; but I remember that the Author of, or at least he who brought in that Law, was a
Country-Gentleman, and therefore I do not at all wonder to
see a Minister of State endeavour to tear down any Monument, that was erected by a Country-Gentleman; but I would
have Gentlemen reflect, that he that pulls down a Monument of Glory, erects thereby to himself a Monument of
Infamy. For my Part, I have always been a CountryGentleman in this House: I am afraid, afraid I ought not
to say, for I desire to continue always to be a Country-Gentleman; and therefore I am for preserving entire and inviolated this Monument of Glory, which was erected by an
honest Country-Gentleman; and for this Reason I cannot
agree with the Committee in the Resolution now before us.'
Sir W. Yonge.
Sir William Yonge spoke next:
Mr Speaker,
'As we had the Sentiments of most Gentlemen on the
Subject now before us when in the Committee, I was in
Hopes that the Resolution would now have been agreed to
without any farther Debate, but I find it is otherwise. An
honourable Gentleman over the way pretends to be in great
Fear, and to dread dangerous Consequences from this Resolution; but how he or any other Gentleman can be at present under any such Apprehension, I cannot comprehend;
there cannot be the least Reason, or so much as any Colour
of Reason for such, as long as the present Royal Family
possesses the Throne of these Kingdoms; it can never be
suspected that his present Majesty, or any of his illustrious
Family, will ever think Parliaments useless, or make any Attempt for laying them aside; such a Thing might, indeed,
very probably happen, if by a Revolution, a Revolution I
say for I shall never give it the Name of a Restoration, the
Pretender to his Majesty's Crown, or any of his Descendents,
should get the Possession of the Throne; the Creditors of the
Publick might then, indeed, despair of ever having either
their Principal or their Interest; they would then be told that
none of the publick Debts ought to be paid, because they
were all contracted without any legal Authority, and for
keeping the rightful Heir from the Crown: Parliamentary
Faith would then, indeed, be laughed at, and those Taxes,
which are now appropriated and faithfully apply'd to the
Payment of the publick Creditors, would then be all at once
converted to the Support of Tyranny and Arbitrary Power.
'This would certainly be the fatal Consequences of such an
unhappy Revolution; but how invidious is it so much as
to suspect any such Design in his Majesty, or any of his Family who shall succeed to the Crown; their Title, their
Right to the Crown, flows from the Authority of Parliament, and entirely depends upon the Preservation of our
present happy Constitution; how then can it be supposed
that they will destroy Parliaments, since by the Destruction of them, they would certainly destroy themselves?
But I find those groundless Jealousies and Fears are pretended not only in this House, but they are industriously
spread through all Parts of the Nation; for I had myself a
Letter lately from the Corporation I have the Honour to represent, desiring me not to consent to any Extension of the
Excise-Laws, because our Parliaments would be thereby
render'd useless: This Letter came to me by the Post, but
by whom it was wrote I do not know; however, from thence
I conclude, that it has been represented to the People in that
Country, that if a certain Scheme now upon the Anvil should
succeed, Parliaments would be render'd quite useless, and
would be laid aside. The vulgar and the ignorant People
may be possessed with such Fears; such Pretences may be
made use of among them, but I little expected to have heard
any such Arguments made use of in this House.
'I am, indeed, surprized to hear it so much as insinuated
that the present Resolution is any Breach of Parliamentary
Faith, or that the publick Creditors have a Right to demand
that no Part of the Sinking Fund can be apply'd to any Thing
but to their Payment. The Case of the Sinking-Fund is
very different from those Taxes which are appropriated towards the Payment of their Interest: It was upon the Faith
of this last Appropriation, that they lent their Money, and
therefore they cannot be diverted to any other Use without
their Consent; but the Sinking-Fund was established long
after, there was no Money lent to the Publick by any Mau
upon the Faith of that Fund; and therefore it is entirely at
the Disposal of Parliament; the Legislature may convert it
to any Use they please, without the Consent of any Man, or
of any Body of Men; as to the Disposal thereof, we are under no Restraint but that of the Publick Good; and as I am
convinced that what is proposed by this Resolution is the best
Thing we can do for the Publick Good, therefore I shall be
for agreeing with our Committee.'
Mr W. Pulteney,
To this Mr William Pulteney replied;
Mr Speaker,
'The Fears, which my honourable Friend has expressed,
are most just and reasonable, however groundless they may
at present appear to the Gentleman who spoke last. His
present Majesty is known to us, we know that all his Designs
are just and honourable, and we know that he will not allow
himself to be misled by any guilty Minister; he is too good
to think of trampling upon the Rights and Liberties of the
Subject, for the Sake of protecting any high Criminal whatever: But we cannot certainly know what is to happen hereafter; we cannot depend on the Dispositions, the Humours,
or the Designs of all the Princes, even of the present Royal
Family, that may in Course succeed to one another. Who
knows but a Prince not yet born may arise, even of the present Royal Family, who finding himself possess'd of a Revenue, which he may raise by virtue of the Laws in Being,
and which he knows to be sufficient for the Support of
his Government, without any Assistance from Parliaments,
may from thence conclude, that Parliaments are useless to
him, and therefore resolve to lay them aside? The present
Royal Family has as good a Right to the Crown, as ever
any Family had that sway'd the Scepter of this Kingdom;
their Right to the Crown no more depends upon Parliaments, than the Right of any former Royal Family ever did;
and yet we know, that some of our former Kings have had
Views of overturning the Rights and the Liberties of the
People. The only Barrier against such Designs, is to take
all proper Care that it shall never be in any future Prince's
Power: This is what has hitherto preserved our Liberties,
and this is our only Security in Time to come.
'The honourable Gentleman has, I do not know how,
lugged the Pretender into this Debate; I am sure the mentioning of that Bugbear was as foreign to the Subject in hand,
as it ever can be to any Debate that can happen in this
House: But is the Pretender the only Person we have to
fear? No, there is no Prince in Europe from whom we have
less to fear than from him; he has so little Power or Interest
in this Nation, that our Liberties can never be in any Danger
from him, and I hope the present Royal Family will always
be so fully possessed of the Hearts and Affections of the People, that it never will be in the Pretender's Power to do us
any Harm. The only Hopes he can ever have must arise
from the arbitrary Designs of the Prince upon the Throne,
and therefore we ought carefully to avoid all those Measures,
which may give a Foundation for the forming of any such
Designs in Time to come.'
Sir W. Wyndham.
Sir William Wyndham spoke next against the Motion:
Mr Speaker,
'I Did not design to have given the House any Trouble
this Day; but such Insinuations are thrown out, and so often
repeated by some Gentlemen in this House, as I cannot with
Patience fit still and hear. I generally observe, that when
proper Answers cannot be made to what Gentlemen advance,
then Jacobitism is brought in; and because some Gentlemen
in this House take the Liberty to differ from others, therefore they must be taxed with the terrible Name of Jacobite;
I wish that Gentlemen would resolve for the future always to
give us Arguments, and not Names, for the Support of their
Opinions. For my own Part, I will leave it to the whole
World to judge who most pursue the Principles of the Revolution, They who are for supporting the Government in that
Way, which is most easy and least burthensome to the People;
or they who are for doing it in a Way, which is so odious and
so burthensome to the whole Nation.'
'Whenever there are any just Fears of the Pretender; if
there ever shall happen to be any real Designs in his Favour,
which I hope never will, then I shall do as I always have
done, I shall shew by my Actions what my Principles are.
I believe I stand in the Opinion of Mankind acquit of any
Imputation of Jacobitism, as much as the honourable Gentleman over the way, or any Gentleman in this House; and
therefore, I as much despise that Imputation, as I despise being always a servile Assentator to every Thing proposed by
the Administration. But as such Insinuations have been often
thrown out against me in this House, I must let Gentlemen
know, that it is a Treatment, which I think inconsistent with
the Dignity of this House, and a Treatment which I will
no longer bear with.'
Then Mr Shippen said:
Mr Shippen.
Mr Speaker,
'I believe I have no Occasion to make any Professions of
what I am; but I must take Notice that in private Life,
any voluntary Securities, that may be granted to Creditors
after the borrowing of their Money, are as binding upon the
Grantor, and ought to be as religiously observed, as those
that were granted at the Time the Money was lent: This
is certainly the Case as to all private Affairs, and I cannot
think but that the Case is the same with respect to publick
Transactions. I do not know, but that some Gentlemen in
this House may be offended at my so much as mentioning
the Reign of King James II. yet upon the present Occasion
I must mention it; and the Observation I shall make is, that
that unfortunate Prince took many wrong Steps, ran himself
into great Difficulties, and at last lost his Crown, by following
too implicitly the wicked Councils of a bad Minister; and
that very Minister most basely betray'd, and at last deserted
his Master. One of the greatest Misfortunes of that Prince,
and that which contributed most to his Overthrow, was his
keeping up a Standing Army in Time of Peace; he did it,
indeed, without the Consent of Parliament, but he did it at
his own Expence; he did it without laying any Charge upon
the People; and he did it without Consent of Parliament,
because he could not find a Parliament mercenary and corrupt enough to give their Consent.'
The Resolution of the Committee agreed to.
Then Sir Robert Walpole and Lord Tyrconnel spoke in
Favour of the Resolution; and Mr Wyndham spoke against
it. At last the Question being put, it was carry'd to agree
with the Committee, without any Division: After which the
Question was put upon the second Resolution, and agreed to
without Opposition.