SPEECHES and DEBATES
In the Second Session of the
Second Parliament of King George II.
ON the 15th of January the King came to the House
of Peers; and the Commons attending, his Majesty
open'd the Session with the following Speech to both
Houses.
The King's Speech at opening the Second Session.
My Lords and Gentlemen,
THE happy Turn which the Affairs of Europe have
evidently taken since the End of last Parliament,
must, I am persuaded, give you all, as it does Me, the
greatest Satisfaction.
"I acquainted you then that a Plan of Pacification, concerted between Me and the States General of the United
Provinces, had been proposed to the Parties engaged in
War, which had not the Effect to prevent the Opening of
the Campaign: The Armies took the Field, and the
War was carried on in some Parts, in such a Manner as
to give very just Apprehensions, that it would unavoidably become general, from an absolute Necessity of preserving that Balance of Power, on which the Safety and
Commerce of the Maritime Powers so much depend.
"This Consideration determined Me to persevere jointly
with the States, in repeating Our most earnest Instances to
the contending Parties to agree to an Armistice, and to
enter into a Negotiation for obtaining a general Peace,
upon the Basis of the Plan we had then proposed to them.
"Whilst Affairs continued in this State of Deliberation,
the Heat and Fury of the War abated; and the Emperor
and the most Christian King, in Consequence of their repeated Professions of a sincere Disposition to put an End
to the War by an honourable and solid Peace, concerred
and agreed upon certain preliminary Articles to answer
that most desireable End. An Annistice is since agreed
to by all the Parties engaged in the War; and the contracting Powers, in Regard to the good Offices employed
by Me and the States, have communicated to Us, by
their respective Ministers the Preliminaries; desiring Our
Concurrence for effectuating a general Pacification upon
the Terms thereby stipulated.
"It appearing upon due Examination, that these Articles do not essentially vary from the Plan proposed by
Me and the States, nor contain any Thing prejudicial to
the Equilibrium of Europe, or to the Rights and Interests
of Our respective Subjects, We thought fit, in pursuance
of Our constant Purpose to contribute our utmost towards a Pacification, to declare, by a joint Resolution,
to the Courts of Vienna and France, Our Approbation of
the said Preliminaries, and Our Readiness to concur in a
Treaty to be made for bringing them to Perfection.
"These Preliminaries have been likewise communicated
to the Kings of Spain and of Sardinia; and altho' those
Princes have not as yet, in Form, declared their final
Resolutions upon them, there is great Reason to believe
that the Love of Peace, their avowed Dispositions for
putting an End to the Troubles of Europe, and the amicable Interposition of common Friends, will prevail upon
them to agree to what has been thus concerted, upon reasonable Security given them, for the peaceable Possession
and Enjoyment of the Countries allotted to them.
"In these Circumstances, My first Care was to ease the
Burthens of My People, as soon and as far as Prudence,
in the present Posture of Affairs, would permit. I have
therefore ordered a considerable Reduction to be made of
My Forces, both by Sea and Land: And if the Influence
of the Crown of Great Britain, and the Respect due to
this Nation, have had any Share in composing the present
Troubles in Europe, or preventing new ones, I am persuaded you will be of Opinion, that it will be necessary
to continue some extraordinary Expence, until there be
a more perfect Reconciliation among the several Powers
of Europe."
Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"I have ordered the proper Officers to lay before you
the Estimates for the Service of the current Year; and I
make no doubt, but My Desires to make the Charge of
the Publick as low as possible, will find in you the
same Readiness to grant the necessary Supplies with Chearfulness and Unanimity."
My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I am willing to hope, this pleasing Prospect of Peace
Abroad will greatly contribute to Peace and good Harmony at Home. Let that Example of Temper and Moderation, which has so happily calmed the Spirits of contending Princes, banish from among you all intestine Discord and Dissension. Those who truly wish the Peace
and Prosperity of their Country, can never have a more
favourable Opportunity than now offers, of distinguishing
themselves, by declaring their Satisfaction in the Progress
already made towards restoring the Publick Tranquility,
and in promoting what is still necessary to bring it to
Perfection."
Mr Stephen Fox's Motion for an Address of Thanks.
The Commons being returned to their House, and Mr
Speaker having reported his Majesty's Speech, Mr Stephen
Fox mov'd, 'That an humble Address be presented to his
Majesty, to return his Majesty the Thanks of that House
for his most gracious Speech from the Throne: To express
their grateful Sense of his Majesty's continued Endeavours
to restore the publick Tranquility, and to avoid involving
this Nation unnecessarily in the fatal Consequences of a general War: To congratulate his Majesty upon the happy
Turn, which the Affairs of Europe had taken, by their Imperial and most Christian Majesties having agreed to preliminary Articles for a general Pacification; and upon the
great Probability of their being accepted by all the Powers
engaged in the War: And to declare, from the Assurances
his Majesty had been pleased to give them, that those Preliminaries did not essentially vary from the Plan of Pacification concerted and proposed by his Majesty and the States
General; from a just Confidence, in his Majesty's Goodness,
and the Experience they had of his constant and paternal
Care of the true Interest of his People, through the whole
Course of this great and intricate Work; and from his Majesty's having declared, in Conjunction with the States, his
Approbation of the said Preliminaries, as proper Conditions
of a general Pacification; that they could make no Doubt,
but they were such as would give a general Satisfaction: To
return his Majesty their Thanks for his early Care in easing
the Burthens of his People, and reducing a considerable
Number of his Forces both by Sea and Land: To assure his
Majesty that they would, with great Chearfulness, raise the
necessary Supplies: And, to testify their Gratitude from a
just Sense of the Blessings they then enjoyed, and from the
Prospect of future Happiness, That they would support his
Majesty in such Measures, as should be found reasonable
and necessary to render that great and desirable Work perfect and lasting.'
Mr Fox was seconded by Mr Hanbury Williams: And
Lord Tyrconnell declar'd, 'That he thought the Peace was
more safe, honourable and glorious, than it was possible for
us to expect.' Upon this Occasion Mr Shippen and Mr Walter
Plumer took Notice of that Part of the King's Speech, which
related to the Reduction of the Forces, and added, 'That
they hoped some whole Regiments would be reduced, and
not a Number of private Men only, as had been formerly
practised upon the like Occasions; for that the reducing of
a whole Regiment would be a much greater Saving to the
Nation, than the reducing of an equal Number of private
Men: That in our present melancholy Circumstances, every Method ought to be practised by which the publick Money might be saved, in order to apply as much as possible
yearly to the Payment of our publick Debts:
'That the Advantage of reducing whole Regiments, was
apparent to every Gentleman who would make the Calculation; for by the Establishment of last Year, a marching
Regiment, which consisted of 815 Men, cost the Publick about 15,217 l. yearly; so that if a whole Regiment should
be reduced, there would be a Saving of 15,217 l. a Year.
Whereas if an equal Number of private Men only be reduced
from that and other Regiments, there would be a Saving to
the Publick of the Pay of so many private Men only, which
in a Year amounted to but 7,427 l. from whence it is evident, that by a Reduction of 8000 Men made by reducing
whole Regiments, the Publick would save 149,369 l. yearly; whereas, a Reduction of 8000 Men made by the reducing of private Men only, saves but 73,000 l. yearly; so
that the Difference to the Publick was a Saving of 76,369 l.
yearly; a Saving which ought not to be neglected: That
tho', for the first Year or two, we should be obliged to issue
near one half of this Sum yearly for Half-pay to the reduced
Officers, yet in a few Years they would either die or be incorporated in the standing Corps; so that we should soon
save this whole Sum yearly.
'That it was not possible for them to find a military Reason why we ought to keep up, and in whose Pay too, a
greater Proportion of Officers in Time of Peace than we
did in Time of War; and as there was no Military Reason
for so doing, People would be apt to suppose it was done
for a Civil Reason; which was a Supposition injurious to
his Majesty, or at least to his Ministers; and for that Reason they would in a particular Manner recommend it to an
honourable Gentleman on the Floor, [Sir Robert Walpole]
to reduce whole Corps, instead of reducing private Men
only.'
Then Mr Fox's Motion was agreed to without Debate,
and a Committee ordered to draw up an Address accordingly.
A Petition of Sir Rowland Winn, complaining of an undue Election for the County of York.
Jan. 16. A Petition of Sir Rowland Winn, Bart. was presented to the House and read, complaining of an undue Election and Return for the County of York, which was ordered to be heard at the Bar of the House on the 24th
of February; and it was ordered, that the List of Voters to
be objected to by either Party, be delivered to the other
by that Day three Weeks.
Jan. 17. The Commons presented their Address of
Thanks to the King as follows:
The Commons Address of Thanks for his Majesty's Speech.
Most Gracious Sovereign,
We your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects,
the Commons of Great Britain in Parliament assembled, return your Majesty our unfeigned Thanks for
your most gracious Speech from the Throne.
'We are truly sensible of your Majesty's early Endeavours to put an End to the War, and can never enough
admire the steady Application, with which you pursued
that great Work, by the joint Interposition of the good
Offices of Your Majesty and the States General.
'And it is, with the warmest Gratitude, we acknowledge
Your Majesty's particular Care and Circumspection, in all
Your Proceedings not to involve this Nation unnecessarily
in the War; when at the same Time, Your Majesty
shewed You were not insensible of the imminent Danger
that threatened the Liberties of Europe, from a long Continuance of it upon so unequal a Foot. A Conduct wherein
Your Majesty plainly proved, You equally consulted the
immediate Interests of Your People, and that Balance of
Power in Europe, upon which the Safety and Commerce
of this Nation so much depends: At once saving this
Nation from all the present Calamities of War, and trying
to avert the future Necessity of its being at last obliged to
take its Share and Hazard in them.
'We can't but be sensible of Your Majesty's Wisdom
and Impartiality, in forming the Plan of Pacification, proposed by Your Majesty and the States General, to the
Powers engaged in War; which although not immediately accepted by the contending Parties, nor answering
the desired Effect by preventing the opening of the Campaign, has been so far adopted, that the most material and
essential Parts of it have been agreed to by the Princes
originally and principally concerned in this Rupture, and
recommended by them to their Allies as Preliminary Articles to a General Pacification.
'Upon this happy Turn the Affairs of Europe have taken,
we most heartily congratulate with Your Majesty; and
when we consider the Assurances Your Majesty has been
graciously pleased to give us, that these Preliminaries do not
essentially vary from the Plan of Pacification, concerted
by Your Majesty and the States General, and the ready
Approbation Your Majesty and the States General have
given of them; a just Confidence in Your Wisdom, and
the Experience we have of Your constant and paternal
Care of the true Interest of Your People, through the
whole Course of this great and intricate Work, leaves us
not the least Room to entertain a Doubt, but that the Preliminary Conditions of this Pacification, are founded, and
so approved, as will give general Satisfaction; in which Persuasion we are farther confirmed, by the great Probability
there appears to be of their being accepted and agreed
to, by all the Powers engaged in the War.
'The early Regard Your Majesty has been graciously
pleased to shew to the Welfare of Your People, in taking
the first Opportunity, on this great and fortunate Event,
to lighten the Burthen of their Expences, by making a
Reduction of Your Forces, both by Sea and Land, is such
a Mark of Your Care in consulting their Interest, and of
Your tender Concern for their Ease, that we should be
as unjust to our Gratitude, as to Your Majesty's Goodness, if we failed to testify the one, and acknowledge the
other, in the strongest and most dutiful Manner. And as we
look upon this, added to all the other Measures of Your
glorious and happy Reign, as a Proof that the Estimates
for the present Year will be proportioned to the Situation
of Affairs, and the Purposes to which they shall be sound
necessary; so we beg Leave to assure Your Majesty, that
we will chearfully and effectually raise such Supplies, as
the Posture of our present happy Circumstances shall require, and sufficient to support the Dignity of the Crown,
and the Honour and Interest of Your Majesty's Subjects
and Dominions.
'And if such Motives could want any additional Circumstance to excite us to fulfil our Duty to Your Majesty and
our Country, the Reflection on the good Effect the extraordinary Supplies, granted the last Year to Your Majesty,
must have had, in contributing to bring this long-laboured
Work to so happy an Issue, joined to the Consciousness of
the Influence Your Majesty's Counsels must ever have in
the Affairs of Europe, whilst a loyal Parliament shews itself determined to support the Resolutions of a wise and
cautious Prince, cannot fail to operate with their due
Weight, in making us persevere in our Endeavours to
give a Lustre to Your Majesty's Reign abroad, equal, if
possible, to the Happiness we enjoy from it at home.'
To this Address his Majesty gave the following Answer.
His Majesty's Answer.
Gentlemen,
I Return you my Thanks for this dutiful and loyal Address. I am very well pleased, that my Endeavours
to restore the publick Tranquility have met with your
Approbation; and you may be assured, my future Care
shall be employed, to the utmost of my Power, to render
the Peace of Europe perfect and lasting, and to make
you a flourishing, and happy People."
Debate on a Petition complaining of an undue Election for the County of Norfolk
Jan. 19. A Petition of the Gentlemen, Clergy, and other Freeholders of the County of Norfolk, whose Names
were thereunto subscribed, in behalf of themselves and a
great Number more of the Freeholders of the said County,
complaining of an undue Election and Return for the said
County, was presented to the House and read; and a Motion being made for hearing the Matter of the said Petition at the Bar of the House on the 26th of February,
Sir John Hynde Cotton stood up and said,
Sir J. Hynde Cotton.
Sir,
'I am surprised to hear such a Motion made, considering the House, but three Days since, appointed the Yorkshire Petition to be heard at the Bar of this House on the
24th of next Month, which is but two Days before the
Day now moved for hearing the Norfolk Petition. This
looks as if the honourable Gentleman imagined, that we
could go thro' the Yorkshire Petition in two Days; whereas,
in my Opinion, if we examine into it as we ought, and as I
hope we will, it will take us up two Years, or at least the
usual Time of two Sessions. I confess, Sir, I have not
the Honour to be let into the Secrets of any of the Yorkshire Petitioners, but I believe the honourable Gentleman,
who made the Motion, is thoroughly acquainted with their
real and most hidden Designs; therefore, from his making
such a Motion as he has been just now pleased to make
you, I must conclude, that the Yorkshire Petitioners are
resolved to drop their Petition, in case they should find
themselves unable to carry some very remarkable Question
the first or second Day. If this be really the Case, the honourable Gentleman was much in the Right to make you
such a Motion as he has done, with regard to the Norfolk
Election; but while we are Members of this House, I
think, we ought upon no Occasion to be directed, in our
way of voting, by the private Opinion or secret Knowledge
of other Men; and therefore if the honourable Gentleman
knows of any such Secret with regard to the Yorkshire Petition, he will stand up again and acquaint the House
with it, that we may have the same Reason for agreeing
to his Motion, which he had for making it.'
Mr Pulteney stood up next, and said,
Mr Pulteney.
Sir,
'I am very sorry to find so many Petitions complaining
of undue Elections and Returns for Counties; for the Expence of controverting such Elections is so great, that it is
impossible any Gentleman can bear to pay the whole out of
his private Fortune. As the Case stands at present, whenever the Election for a County comes to be controverted,
the Expence must necessarily be raised by a general Contribution among all the Freeholders of the County; and it
will not signify much to ease the Landed Gentlemen of a
Shilling in the Pound Land-Tax, if by the Controverting
of Elections they shall be obliged, once in every Parliament,
to tax themselves, perhaps in ten Times that Sum, for supporting the Rights of their Country.
'Injustice may, 'tis true, be sometimes done by the Returning Officers for Counties, as well as by the Returning
Officers for Boroughs. But as there are such a great Number
of Voters for every County, as almost every Freeholder's
Right of voting must be examined into, before the Injustice
of the Returning Officer can be detected, and as the naming of that Returning Officer depends entirely upon the Ministers of the Crown, the Election for all the Counties in
England is certainly very precarious. And when any Injustice is done, the Discovering of it is so troublesome and
expensive, that no private Man can well undertake it: In
such Circumstances, it will always be easy for the Ministers
of the Crown to appoint who shall be the Knights of any
Shire, whenever they have a Mind; for if the Returning
Officer makes an undue Return according to their Orders, it
is almost impossible to discover the Injustice done by him, so
as to subject him to the Punishment inflicted by Law; and
if the Returning Officer should happen to disobey their Orders, it is but making their Candidates petition, by which
the Gentlemen rightfully chosen, and duely returned, will be
put to such an Expence in defending their Right, that no
Man will thereafter choose to stand for any County in Opposition to the Court-Interest. This Injustice in the Returning Officers, as well as this Expence to the Gentlemen chosen or petitioning, might, in my Opinion, be easily prevented by a few small Amendments to the Laws now in Being
for regulating Elections; for if the Oath to be taken by
Freeholders, on occasion of their coming to vote at any
Election, were made a little more full and explicit, no Man
would dare to take it falsly, because it would be easy to convict him of Perjury; and those, against whom he voted,
would always be ready to be at the Trouble and Expence of
the Prosecution; in which Case the taking of the Oath
might be made final and conclusive as to the Person's Right
of voting, so that the Right of any Freeholder to his Vote
at an Election would never come to be controverted at the
Bar of this House; and then it would be easy to detect the
Returning Officers, if they committed any Injustice, and the
controverting of Elections would not be near so tedious,
troublesome, or expensive as it is at present.
'As the Case now stands, Sir, the Expence of controverting a County Election is most grievous and most terrible;
and as the County of Norfolk is one of the largest and most
populous Counties in England, the Expence of controverting
the Election for that County must be much greater than
most others; but if you appoint the Petition from that
County to be heard in so few Days, after the Day on which
you have appointed the Yorkshire Petition to be heard, you
would greatly enhance even that greater Expence; because
both the sitting Member and the Petitioners for Norfolk,
must have their Lawyers, Agents, Witnesses, and all the
other Implements of a controverted Election, attending in
Town, and living at their Expence, during the whole Time
of the Controversy about the Yorkshire Petition. This, I
say, Sir, must be the Case, at least of the sitting Member,
[Sir Edmund Bacon] because I am pretty well convinc'd he
is not in any Concert, nor knows any of the Secrets of the
Petitioners for Yorkshire; and the laying him under such an
extraordinary Expence, or indeed under any Expence, is
the more unnecessary, because the only Gentleman, whose
Right seems to be controverted, is now dead, [Mr Wodehouse] by which Means the Petitioners and their Friends
might, if they pleased, have an Opportunity of trying their
Interest in the County by a new Election, without putting
themselves to the Trouble or Charge of controverting the
former; but it seems the Petitioners know that the Expence
of controverting the former Election, great as it must be,
will be less to them than the Expence of a new Election;
which, by the by, Sir, seems to me to be a Demonstration
that their natural Interest in the County is not much to be
depended on.
'But to this, Sir, I must add, that I have been informed,
and really believe, that the Petitioners could not make near
so good a Show upon a new Election, as they did upon the
former; for every one knows that on such Occasions many
Promises are made by those, who do not depend upon their
natural Interest, but upon the unnatural and acquired Interest they may have by Means of the many Posts and Preferments they have at their Disposal: And I have heard,
that many Promises were made upon the last Election for the
County of Norfolk, which have not been performed; from
whence it is to be presumed, that the Persons to whom those
Promises were made, and who were thereby induced to vote
contrary to their Inclinations, will upon a new Election vote
according to Conscience. This, Sir, I am afraid, is the true
Reason for renewing the Petition from that County, notwithstanding its being certain that the Hearing of these Petitions will cost them more than a new Election can naturally
cost them; notwithstanding its being certain, that a new
Election would bring their Candidates sooner to their having
Seats in this House, than they can be by the Hearing of the
Petition; and I must say, that the Motion now made to us
seems calculated for nothing, but that of laying the sitting
Member and his Friends under a Necessity of yielding to the
Petitioners, rather than be at the Expence of trying the
Merits of the last Election at the Bar of this House.
Mr Winnington. Sir W. Yonge.
To this it was answered by Mr Winnington, Sir William Yonge and other Members, 'That it was impossible
to foretel how long the hearing of the Yorkshire Petition
would last; but they could not imagine it would last near
so long as the honourable Gentleman seemed to intimate;
for as the controverted Votes on both Sides would be very
much reduced, and fully ascertained, by the Lists that were
to be mutually delivered, they could not think that Dispute would take up many Days, much less several Weeks:
That they would readily join in any Measures for preventing the Injustice of Returning Officers, as well as for
making the controverting of County Elections short and
easy; but the controverted Elections then depending could
not be regulated by any such Measures: And as many of
the Freeholders of Norfolk had complained of Injustice done
them at the last Election, it was a Duty incumbent upon
them, as Members of that House, to hear their Complaints,
and give the Complainants such Redress as they should find
them intitled to: That this they were obliged to do with all
possible dispatch; and if the hearing of the Yorkshire Petition
should last two or three Days, which might probably be
the Case, it would be doing Injustice to the People of Norfolk to put off the hearing of their Complaints for two or
three Weeks: That they knew no more of the Secrets of
the Petitioners for Yorkshire, than any other Gentleman of
that House, so that their moving for having the Norfolk
Petition heard, so soon after the Day appointed for hearing
the Yorkshire Petition, could proceed from nothing but
their great Desire to do Justice to the Norfolk Petitioners,
and the sitting Member, with all possible Dispatch: That if
the Petitioners, their Lawyers, Agents, and Witnesses should
be obliged to attend in a few Days before their Affair could
be brought on, it was an Inconvenience which could not be
avoided; it was an Inconvenience which People had always
been, and must always be subject to, in all Courts, and in
all sorts of Causes; for unless People were subjected to
such an Inconvenience, every Court of Judicature in the
Kingdom would often be put to a full Stop, which would
make it impossible to administer Justice to all those who
might be obliged to sue to such Courts for Justice; but
whatever Inconvenience there was in this Respect, it lay
heavier in the present Case upon the Petitioners than it could
do upon the sitting Member; because the Petitioners would
be obliged to attend in Town, from the Day appointed for
hearing their Petition, which they were not otherwise obliged to do; whereas the sitting Member was otherwise
obliged to be in Town, in order to attend the Service of the
House: That they knew of no Promises made upon the
former Election, nor any Disappointments People had since
met with; but believed that such Reports were without
Foundation: That a new Election might perhaps be less expensive than to try the Merits of the last Election; and
likewise Gentlemen might perhaps come sooner to their
Seats in that House by a new Election, than by having their
Right upon the former Election determined; but if any Gentleman had a Right to a Seat in that House upon the former Election, it was not reasonable to expect that he should
give up that Right, which he must do by submitting to
a new Election: That besides, if Injustice be done to him
as well as the County upon the former Election, it was a
Duty he owed both to himself and his County, to prosecute
the Authors of that Injustice in such Manner as the Laws
of his Country direct; and as that could not be done, but
by bringing the Merits of the former Election to be tried at
the Bar of that House, they thought that the Petitioners
were in the Right to insist upon it: That this was certainly
the Duty of the Petitioners, and it was their Duty, as Members of that House, to hear and determine the Affair as soon
as possible, by agreeing to the Motion.'
Hereupon the Motion was agreed to without a Division;
and the Lists of controverted Voters were ordered to be mutually delivered by that Day Month.
Debate on a Petition of John Neale, Esq; complaining of an undue Election for Coventry.
The same Day Mr Walter Plumer presented to the House
a Petition of John Neale, Esq; complaining of an undue
Election and Return for the City of Coventry; and the
same being read, Mr Plumer stood up again and said, 'That
tho' by the Forms of proceeding in that House, it was necessary for the Petitioner to present a Petition that Session, in
the very same Words with the Petition presented by him
upon the same Subject the preceeding Session, yet he had
now given him Orders to acquaint the House, That in order
to save Trouble to the House, and not to take up their
Time any longer than was absolutely necessary, he was willing to pass from every Complaint in his Petition mentioned,
except so far as related to the Qualification of John Bird,
Esq; one of the sitting Members for the said City; which
was the only Complaint he intended to insist on at the hearing of the Petition: And as the Determining of that Point
could not take up above half an Hour of their Time, he
would therefore move, that the Petition might be heard at
the Bar of the House': But upon the Question's being put,
it passed in the Negative, and the Petition was referred to
the Committee of Privileges and Elections.
A Petition of Anthony Chute, Esq; complaining of an undue Election for Hampshire. ; Debate thereon.
Jan. 21. A Petition of Anthony Chute, Esq; complaining of an undue Election and Return for the County of
Southampton, was presented to the House and read; and it
was ordered, That the Matter of the said Petition be heard
at the Bar of the House, on the 9th of March; after which
it was moved to order, That the Lists, with respect to
the said controverted Election, be delivered by that Day five
Weeks: Hereupon Mr Lisle, one of the sitting Members for
that County stood up and said, 'That he would willingly
submit to any Order the House should make upon that Occasion, and would be ready to deliver his Lists by any Day
the House should prefix; but as the Design of delivering such
Lists was to shorten the Dispute, and to prevent taking up
their Time with Inquiries into Objections against Voters,
which were either false or frivolous, the longer the Time
was which was to be prefixed for delivering such Lists, both
the Petitioner and he would be more enabled to abridge
their Lists; and therefore, in order to give the House as
little Trouble as possible, which he was very much inclined
to, he hoped the House would give him and the Petitioner
as much Time as possible for making up and delivering their
Lists: That with respect to the Objections against the Voters of either Side, they were obliged to depend upon the
Information of others; and in order to prevent their being
excluded from objecting against any Person, who was really
a bad Voter upon the other Side of the Question, they were
obliged to put every Man's Name in their Lists, against
whom they could hear of any Sort of Objection; but that
if he had Time, he would, by himself and his Agents, inquire particularly into every Objection; and would put no
Man's Name in his List, if upon such Inquiry he should
find that the Objection was not sufficiently supported by
Reason and Evidence, by which Means he might probably
very much abridge the List he was to deliver; and he did
not doubt of the Petitioners doing the same: That as there
were already Petitions from Yorkshire, Norfolk and Flintshire, appointed to be heard before the Day appointed for
hearing of the Petition against him, it could not be presumed,
that the hearing of the Petition against him would come on
upon the very Day the House had appointed for hearing
it: That therefore he thought it would be better for the
House to suspend making any Order, for delivering Lists of
bad Voters for the County of Southampton, till after the
Determination of the Yorkshire Election at least; for as the
Petition for the County of Norfolk, and that for the County
of Flint, were both to be heard before the Petition for the
County of Southampton could come on, there could be no
Inconvenience in delaying to make any Order for delivering
Lists with respect to the last; because after the Determination of the Yorkshire Election, the House might order the
Lists for the County of Southampton to be delivered by that
Day se'enight; and it was impossible the Norfolk and Flint
Elections could both be determined in a Week's Time. For
this Reason, he hoped the honourable Gentleman would,
for the Convenience of the Petitioner, as well as for his
Convenience, and also for the sake of saving the Time of
that House, wave the Motion he had made; and that the
House would suspend making any Order for delivering the
Lists for the County of Southampton, till after the Determination of the Yorkshire Election.
To this it was answer'd, 'That the usual Method was
for the House to appoint a Day for delivering Lists of all
County Elections, at the same Time they appointed a Day
for hearing the Petition: That the three other County
Elections might for some Reason or other be put off, or perhaps entirely dropt, for which Reason it was necessary for
those concerned in the Southampton Election, to be fully prepared and ready for the Hearing, against the Day the House
had appointed, which they could not be, unless the Lists
were delivered against the Day then moved for: And that,
as the sitting Member, as well as the Petitioner, had already
had near a whole Year to inquire into the Qualifications of
Voters and the Objections that could be made against any
of them, it was to be presumed that their Lists were then
as much abridged as they could possibly be.'
Then the Question being put for delivering the Lists by
that Day five Weeks, it was carried in the Affirmative without a Division.
A Petition of Richard Sheppard, Esq; complaining of an undue Election for Southwark. ; Debate thereon.
January 26. Mr Eversfield presented to the House a Petition of Richard Sheppard, Esq; complaining of an undue
Election, and Return for the Borough of Southwark, which
was accordingly read; and a Motion being made, and seconded, that the Matter of the said Petition be heard at
the Bar of the House; Mr Winnington stood up and said,
'That altho' the honourable Gentleman, who presented
the Petition, had moved to have it heard at the Bar of the
House; and altho' that Motion had been seconded, and very
much pressed by the honourable Gentleman, who was one
of the sitting Members for Southwark, and against whom
the Petition seemed to be chiefly aimed; yet he hoped Gentlemen would have some Regard to the honourable Gentleman in the Chair, to whom every Election heard at the
Bar was a very great Fatigue. That besides, they ought to
consider their own Time, and how much of it would be
taken up in hearing the Petitions already appointed to be
heard at the Bar, insomuch, that he was afraid it would be
impossible for them to go thro' the publick Business, which
could not be put off till another Session without doing a
very great Prejudice to the Nation in general: That as
there was a vast Number of Voters in the Borough of Southwark, there would of course be a very great Number of
Witnesses to be examined; and consequently a great many
Points of Law would probably arise, which must be argued
by Counsel, and many of them might perhaps afterwards
be argued for a long Time in the House; so that upon the
whole, he did not believe the House could go thro' that
Election in two or three Weeks, even tho' they should adjourn all other Business, and sit upon it De Die in Diem. For
this Reason he hoped, that not only out of Regard to their
Speaker, but out of Regard to the Publick, and to the Business of the Nation in general, they would allow that Election to go to their Committee, where it might be heard
without interrupting the publick Business, without fatiguing
their Speaker, and without doing any Prejudice either to
their Petitioner, or to the sitting Member.'
Sir J. H. Cotton.
Hereupon Sir John Hynde Cotton stood up, and said,
Sir,
'Upon the present Occasion, I cannot omit taking Notice of what happened when the Yorkshire Petition was presented. In the County of York there are certainly five or
six times as many Voters as there are in the Borough of
Southwark, and therefore, if the honourable Gentleman be
of Opinion, that the Election of the Borough of Southwark
will take up two or three Weeks of our Time, he must
have been of Opinion, that the Election for Yorkshire would
take up at least three or four Months; yet when that Petition was presented, I remember the same honourable Gentleman appeared very fond of having it heard at the Bar of
this House; and I should be glad to know from whence
proceeds that tender Regard, which he is pleased to testify
in the present Case, for the honourable Gentleman in the
Chair, since he did not seem to shew the least Regard for
him in the former?'
Mr Heathcote.
Mr Heathcote spoke next:
Sir,
'By an Agreement between me and the honourable Gentleman who presented the Petition, he promised to move for
its being heard at the Bar of the House: He has accordingly done so, and I have seconded that Motion; after
which I am not a little surprised to hear any Gentleman
attempt to have it sent to the Committee; for when the
sitting Member, as well as the Petitioner, insists upon having
the Petition heard at the Bar, I believe there is no Example
of such a Petition's being referred to the Committee. I
have as great a Regard for the honourable Gentleman in
the Chair as any Member in this House can pretend to;
but I know he will grudge no Trouble in doing Service to
the Publick, or Justice to any Member who thinks himself
injured; and in the present Case I insist with the more
Freedom upon having the Petition heard at the Bar, because
I know the contested Votes are but very few; so that the
Hearing can last but a very few Days; and I have some
Reason to expect, that the Petition will be given up even
before those Votes which are contested are all examined
into.
'But, Sir, I have another Reason for insisting upon its
being heard at the Bar of this House: The Petition which
has been publickly read here, contains several grievous and
heinous Allegations against me, therefore I think I have a
sort of Right to have the Truth of these Allegations examined into, in the same Place in which they have been published; and I insist upon it, because, I have very good
Reason to believe, that when this is done the Petition will
appear to be as vexatious as any ever presented to this
House. And my Reason for believing so is founded not
only upon a Consciousness of my own Innocence, but upon
the Candour and Sincerity of the Petitioner's own Scrutineers; for during the whole Time of the Election, the Returning Officer for that Borough acted so equally and fairly,
that, after the Scrutiny was over, even the Scrutineers for
the Petitioner returned him Thanks for his Justice and Impartiality.
'For these Reasons, I hope, Sir, the House will not
only order this Petition to be heard at the Bar, but will
appoint a short Day, considering the Place is just in our
Neighbourhood, so that no Pretence can be made, that any
of the Parties or Witnesses are at any great Distance.
Mr Walter Plumer spoke next.
Mr W. Plumer.
Sir,
As the Elections, which are appointed to be heard at the Bar,
are generally sooner determined than those which are referred
to the Committee; and as it is always very much the Interest of the Petitioner, to have the Matter of his Petition
soon heard, if he has any Confidence in it; therefore I have
never observed the Hearing of any Petition at Bar refused,
when it was desired and insisted on by the sitting Member:
But there is something very extraordinary in the present
Case, for not only the sitting Member desires and insists
upon the Petition's being appointed to be heard at the Bar, but
there seems to be a Design in the Petitioner not to have his
Petition heard at all, or at least not this Session; for otherwise he would certainly have presented it among the first,
as he might and ought to have done, whereas he has delayed presenting it almost as long as he could; which to me
is really a strong Presumption, that he is sensible of his Petition's being such as the sitting Member has represented it to
be; and if it be so. there can be no stronger Reason assigned, not only for its being heard at the Bar, but for its
being heard as soon as possible.
The Question was then put for hearing the Petition at
the Bar of the House; which upon a Division was carried in
the Affirmative by 145 to 142. After which the Question
was put for hearing it at the Bar on the 10th of February,
which was carried in the Affirmative without a Division.
This Affair being over Mr Walter Plumer stood up and
said, 'That, altho' he had before acquainted the House,
that Mr Neale, Petitioner for Coventry, was willing to pass
from every Complaint in his Petition, except so far as related to the Qualification of John Bird, Esq; one of the sitting
Members; yet that something to that Purpose might appear
upon their Votes, and to insure the sitting Member that no
other Complaint would be insisted on against him, he would
move, That since John Neale, Esq; who had exhibited a
Petition to that House, complaining of an undue Election
and Return for the City of Coventry, desired to withdraw
the Complaints in the said Petition, except as to what relates to the Qualification of John Bird, Esq; one of the sitting Members for the said City, therefore it might be ordered, That the said Petition should be dismissed except as
aforesaid: This was accordingly agreed to. Then Mr
Plumer added, 'That as the examining the Matter of that
Petition, as it then stood, could not require any long Preparation, or the bringing up many Witnesses; and as it could
not take up so much as one Evening to determine that Complaint in the Committee; therefore he would move for an
Instruction to the Committee to hear it on that Day three
Weeks'. To this it was objected, as it had been to the former Motion in this Affair, 'That it was contrary to the
common Course, and that there was nothing in that Affair
so extraordinary as to induce them to hear it out of its due
Course.' For this Reason, upon the Question's being put,
it passed in the Negative.
Sir C. Wager's Motion for 15,000 Men for the Sea Service for the Year 1736.
The same Day the House being in a Committee of the
whole House on the Supply, Sir Charles Wager moved,
'That 15,000 Men be employed in the Sea Service for the
Year 1736.'
Hereupon Mr Walter Plumer stood up and spoke as follows:
Debate thereon. ; Mr W. Plumer.
Sir,
'I do not rise up to oppose the Motion, because, as we
have the Happiness to live in an Island, I have always been
of Opinion, that we ought chiefly to depend upon our Naval Force; and for this Reason I shall never be against our
keeping up a pretty large Number of Seamen, even in
Times of the most profound Peace and Tranquility. We
have, 'tis true, for some Years past, followed a quite contrary Maxim; we have kept up such a great Number of
Land Forces, that it has not been in our Power to keep up
such a Number of Seamen in Time of Peace as we ought to
have done; but what has been the Consequence of this
Maxim? It has forced a great Number of our native and
gallant Seamen into the Service of foreign Powers, and from
thence arose the Difficulty we found ourselves in upon a late
sudden Emergency, with respect to the sitting out speedily
a powerful Squadron: This Difficulty the whole Nation was
lately sensible of; and to this Difficulty we shall always be
exposed, unless we disband a great Number of our LandSoldiers, and bestow that Money upon keeping up a large
Body of Seamen.
'But, Sir, I rise up to put you in Mind, that you ought
to Proportion all your Expences for the current Service of
the Year, not only to the happy Situation of your Affairs
Abroad, but to the unhappy Situation of your Affairs at
Home. Whoever considers this, will never give his Consent to the loading the present Generation or their Posterity
with new Taxes, and much less to the laying of violent
Hands on the Sinking Fund, when both may be prevented
by our insisting upon the Payment of those Sums, to which
we are justly intitled from foreign Powers; and therefore,
Sir, when we go into a Committee of Ways and Means,
in order to provide for the 15,000 Seamen now to be voted,
I hope you will take under your Consideration, what I shall
now presume to mention to you.
'As the keeping up of a great Number of Land-Forces
in this Island is quite unnecessary, and even inconsistent with
the Nature of our happy Constitution, and the Freedom of
our Government; therefore, when any War is like to break
out in which we may probably have a Concern, we are always obliged to take foreign Troops into our Pay: Whether
we have always been in the Right when we did so, is what
I shall not now controvert; but I have always observed,
that no foreign Prince would lend us any of his Troops,
without our engaging, not only to pay them, but to grant
him a Subsidy, perhaps greater than the Pay of those Troops,
upon their own Footing, would have amounted to; and that
even in Cases where the Prince stood obliged, perhaps by
former Treaties, to assist us with Troops at his own Expence,
and often in Cases where his own Preservation was more immediately concerned in the Event of the War than ours.
''Tis true, Sir, we are always obliged upon such Occasions, to have Recourse to the Princes of the North, who
by Reason of their Poverty plead an Inability to send us, or
to have ready to be sent, the stipulated Succours, unless we,
by a new Contract, agree to pay them a Subsidy; which
has some Shew of Reason, or at least of Necessity, when
they raise any new Troops for our Service; but I never
could comprehend either the Reason or the Necessity for
such a Pretence, when they make no real Addition to the
Land-Army they before kept up, nor put themselves to
one Farthing Additional Expence on Account of their
Subsidy from us. This I know has sometimes been the
Case for Years together, during all which Time we have
been so generous as to pay their Subsidy regularly, for enabling them to defray an Expence they never were at: At
least, in the publick Accounts delivered to this House,
those Subsidies have been yearly stated as fully and regularly
paid, in Pursuance of the Treaties we had before approved
of; though indeed, an Accident happened not long ago,
which gave Room to think, that all those Subsidies had not
been fully and regularly paid to the Princes so intitled to
them.
'Now, Sir, if we narrowly consider our Circumstances, I
believe we shall find that we are as poor, and in as great
Difficulties, as the poorest Prince in the North; and as we
have lately sent a very powerful Squadron to the Assistance
of a very rich Prince, I make no Doubt but that our wise
and srugal Ministers let that Prince know, before they sent
out the Squadron, that with respect to him we are a Northern Power, and as needy as any Power he could apply to;
and that therefore they have obliged him to pay us a very
large Subsidy, for the powerful Squadron we sent to his
Assistance.
'I am very sure our Ministers had much more Reason to
insist upon such a Subsidy, than the Ministers of any Northern Power ever had to insist upon a Subsidy from us; for
with respect to the Breach between Portugal and Spain, it
was, in my Opinion, at least, as great a Question which of
them were acting upon the Offensive, as it was with respect
to the Breach between Spain and the Emperor; therefore,
we were not by any former Treaty obliged to send him any
Assistance: Then as to the Expence, it is certain we have
put ourselves to a very considerable additional Expence on
Account of the Assistance we have sent to him; and as to
the Benefit he has reaped from that Assistance, it appears
plain to me, that the Tranquility he has enjoyed, and does
still enjoy, has been, and is still owing to nothing but the
powerful Squadron we have sent to his Assistance; which, I
am positive, is much more than can be said of any Assistance
we have ever got from any of those, to whom we have paid
such large and such generous Subsidies: To this I must add,
that it cannot be said that the Preservation of this Nation
was immediately concerned in the Event of the War between Portugal and Spain; which has generally been the
Case with respect to those Northern Princes to whom we
have hitherto distributed our Subsidies.
'From these Reasons, I am induc'd, Sir, to think that
our Ministers have certainly stipulated a large Subsidy from
Portugal; and I have taken Notice of it upon this Occasion,
only to put Gentlemen in Mind to call for an Account of
this Subsidy, at a proper Opportunity; and to appropriate
it to the maintaining the 15,000 Seamen now to be voted;
in order to prevent our being obliged to load the present or
the future Generation with additional Taxes, or to lay violent Hands upon that Fund, which ought always to be held
sacred to the Payment of our publick Debts; by which only
we can free our poor Labourers and Manusacturers from those
Taxes, which at present render the Necessaries of Life so
much dearer in this Country than they are in any other.'
Then the Question being put on Sir Charles Wager's
Motion, the same was agreed to without Opposition.
Debate on Mr Pulteney's Motion for referring the Estimate of the Navy for the Year 1736 to a select Committee.
Jan. 28. A Motion was made by Mr Pulteney, 'That
the ordinary Estimate of the Navy for the Year 1736, be
referred to a Select Committee; upon which ensued a Debate, in which Mr Pulteney's Motion was supported by Mr
Plumer, Mr Sandys, Sir John Barnard, and Mr Gibbon, as
follows:
Sir,
'Among the many ancient Methods of Proceeding in
Parliament, drop'd by the Complaisance of latter Times, I
think no one more necessary to be re-assumed, than that of
appointing Committees to inspect the Estimates that are laid
before us, for enforcing the Demands made, by the Crown.
It appears from the ancient Journals of this House, that
when a Demand of Money is made for answering the Expence of any Measure necessary for the Honour or Interest
of the Nation, an Estimate of that Expence was laid before this House, and a Committee appointed to examine that
Estimate, to see whether every Article was fairly stated. Our
Parliaments in those Days were not so complaisant as to take
any such Estimate upon the Credit of the Ministers: They
thought it incumbent upon them to see, with their own Eyes,
the Necessity of every Article of the Expence proposed, before they would open their Purse. This Method of proceeding is, in my Opinion, proper upon all Occasions, but
at present, with respect to the Navy, it is become absolutely
necessary, because the yearly Expence of the Navy now vastly exceeds what it was in former Times; and there is almost every Year some new Article brought into that Estimate which was never before heard of. I do not deny, Sir,
but that it may be now necessary for us to keep up a much
larger Fleet, and to keep a much greater Number of Seamen in our Pay than we formerly used to do; but the
greater our Expence is that Way, the more Room there is
for defrauding the Publick; and therefore we ought to be
the more careful to prevent loading the Publick with any
unnecessary Article of Expence. These Estimates, 'tis true,
are laid yearly upon our Table; but I believe no Gentleman, even of those who are best acquainted with the Affairs
of our Navy, will pretend to say, that he can from a bare
Perusal at our Table determine, whether the Articles of
Expence mentioned in such Estimates are all necessary, or
that no one of them has been overcharged? And I do not
see how any Gentleman can answer to his Constituents the
loading of them with an Expence, a great Part of which,
for what he knows, may be altogether unnecessary.
'We ought, Sir, likewise to take Care that so much Money may be granted as shall be necessary for our yearly Expence; for by Estimates and Grants of Money which are
afterwards found to be deficient, especially with respect to
the Navy, we deceive our Constituents; we do Injustice to
the particular Men employed in the Navy, who are generally obliged to sell their Claims at a Discount; we enhance
the Price of all Materials necessary for the Support of the
Navy; and we discourage our Seamen from entering into the
Service of their Country: This we have the more Reason
to take notice of at present, because of the great Debt that
has been lately contracted on Account of our Navy; a most
extraordinary Debt, considering the short Time in which it
has been contracted, and that in a Time of profound Peace.
And the Method, which we were last Year obliged to take
for paying off a Part of it, ought to make us extremely cautious of being again led into the same Error, by any short
Estimates that may be laid before us; for we may remember, that during the Time we were running ourselves insensibly into that considerable Debt, there were Estimates yearly laid before the Parliament, which it was pretended, contained an Estimate of the whole Expence necessary for the
Service of that Year. The Nation may be accidentally
drawn into an additional Expence not to be foreseen; but
that additional Expence ought always to be laid before the
very next Session of Parliament, and ought to be provided
for within the very next Year.
'Another Consideration, Sir, which ought to make us
look the more narrowly into all publick Accounts, is the
great Debt the Nation groans under. A Gentleman of an
opulent Fortune, may perhaps pass slightly over his Steward's Accounts; he may even allow his Servants to heap up
Expences upon him, and to charge him with new and extraordinary Articles, without inquiring whether or no there
was any Necessity for them; but a Gentleman whose Estate
is deeply mortgaged, and cannot even support the yearly
Expence of his Family, without laying Hands upon that
Part of his Estate which stands appropriated for paying off
old Mortgages, ought to inquire strictly into the Management of his Stewards, and ought never to pass any Account,
before he is thoroughly convinced of the Necessity of it.
This, Sir, is our melancholy Case at present; we cannot
provide, even for the current Service of the Year, without
laying Hands upon that Revenue, which was long since appropriated to the Payment of old Debts; and therefore we
ought not to approve of any Estimate, till we are thoroughly
convinced of the Necessity of every Article; and this can
be done only by referring them to Select Committees.
'Whether any unnecessary Articles of Expence have been
lately brought upon the Nation, is what I shall not at present pretend to determine; but that several new and extraordinary Articles have been of late Years brought into almost every Estimate usually laid before us, is what must be
known to most Gentlemen in this House; and no one of
them has ever yet been inquired into, in that Manner which
is necessary upon such Occasions. It is likewise well known,
that we have had of late Years several new Offices erected,
new Posts established, and new Salaries granted, all of which
are a Charge upon the publick Revenue; and whatever may
be the Case as to these new Offices, I believe, upon a proper
Inquiry, it would be found that we have many old Offices
or Officers that might be spared, and many Salaries which
might be altogether suppressed or very much diminished.
If the Nation were engaged in War, or if we were in any
Danger of being engaged in War, it would not perhaps be
proper to enter upon such Inquiries; but by the great Promotion lately made of General Officers, I am convinced the
Peace of Europe is now fully re-established; for I am persuaded his Majesty would not have made so many brave
Gentlemen useless as Colonels, by promoting them to be
Generals, if there had been the least Ground to suspect that
we should soon be engaged in War: 'Tis true, few of those
Gentlemen lately promoted will, I believe, be brought upon
the Establishment as Generals, and therefore it is to be hoped
that Promotion will not increase the Publick Expence; but
we are at present in a State of perfect Tranquility, therefore
it is the most proper Time for us to inquire into all our
publick Accounts; and as our Navy ought always to be
the first Concern of the Parliaments of Great Britain, I shall
beg Leave, Sir, to move, 'That a select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Estimate of the Navy for the
Current Year.'
To this it was answer'd by Sir Robert Walpole, Mr Horatio Walpole, Mr Winnington, Sir William Yonge, and
Sir Charles Wager, as follows:
Sir,
'I shall not take up your Time with a Dispute about
the ancient Usage in Parliament, but if there ever was any
such Method as that mentioned by the honourable Gentleman who has made you this Motion, it is certain that it has
not been followed for many Years; and as no Custom once
established, is ever laid aside, without some good Reasons
for so doing, we are to presume that if there ever was any
such Method established, it was found to be inconvenient or
unnecessary, otherwise it had never been discontinued for so
many Years. This of itself is a sufficient Reason for our
not re-assuming that Custom, unless it could be shewn that
the Publick has suffered by its being laid aside; but there
is this farther Reason, that our reviving such a Custom on
the present Occasion, would make People suspect that some
very great Frauds have been lately committed in the Management of the publick Treasure; and I cannot think it
consistent with that Duty we owe to his Majesty, to give
the People any such Alarm, when there is not the least
Foundation for such Suspicion.
'Perhaps there may have been some new Articles lately
brought into some of our Estimates, but I do not remember any that are very considerable; and there never was
one new Article brought in, but what appeared, at first View,
to be absolutely necessary for the publick Service. The honourable Gentleman seems to think it impossible to determine, from a bare Perusal of the Estimates at our Table,
that the Articles of Expence mentioned in them are all necessary, and that no one Article has been overcharged; but
I cannot be of his Opinion; for I never could observe any
Mystery either in the Estimate of the Navy, or in any other
Estimates laid before Parliament: The Articles are all well
known, because it never exceeds what it was in the preceding Year, without some manifest Reason; therefore any
Gentleman may sufficiently satisfy himself about every Article, by a bare Perusal at the Table; but if upon such Perusal any Doubt should arise, there are always, in the Committee of Supply, many Gentlemen able to give him as much
Information as he can with Reason desire; so that there
never can be a Necessity for our referring any Estimate to a
Select Committee.
'The Estimates, yearly laid before Parliament, have always contained the whole Charge necessary for the Service of
the ensuing Year, so far as could be foreseen when those
Estimates were drawn up; but as it is impossible to foresee
all the Accidents that may happen in the Course of a Year,
therefore the Government may sometimes be obliged to increase the publick Charge, beyond what was contained in the
Estimate laid before the preceding Session of Parliament:
This is an Inconvenience proceeding from the Weakness of
human Foresight, and cannot be removed by referring any
Estimate to a select Committee of Parliament; for it is
impossible to suppose, that any Committee can foresee
every Thing that may happen in the Course of a Year;
nay, it is not to be presumed that they can foresee Things
as fully and clearly as those, who are immediately concerned
in the Administration, under whose Direction the Estimates
are generally drawn up. And if, by future Accidents, it
should be found necessary to increase the publick Charge beyond what was at first proposed, an Account of that additional Charge certainly ought to be, and I believe has always
hitherto been laid before Parliament, as soon as any such
Account could be regularly made up. This was the Case
with respect to the Navy-Debt, so that its remaining so long
unsatisfied, could not be owing to the Estimates or Accounts
not being referred to a select Committee, but to the Inability
the Nation was under of providing for it out of the Grants
of any succeeding Year.
'I shall grant, Sir, that the Load of Debts this Nation
labours under at present is very great, but we ought to bear
it with the more Chearfulness, when we consider that the
whole was contracted in Defence of our Religion and Liberties; and surely no Man will grudge contributing a small Part
of his yearly Revenue, towards paying the Principal and Interest, when he considers, that if it had not been for that Debt,
he would have no Property at all. But this Debt, great as it
is, was all contracted in Pursuance of Estimates yearly delivered into Parliament, no one of which was ever referred
to a select Committee; and yet it cannot be alledged, that
the smallest Part of this Debt was unnecessarily contracted,
or that the Publick was in the least defrauded by any of
those Estimates. I shall likewise grant that we ought to
look narrowly into all Estimates laid before us, but when
those Estimates are plain, this may be done without sending
them to a select Committee; and let a private Gentleman's
Estate be never so much mortgaged, I shall have no Opinion
of his Prudence, if he sate half a Year poring over an Account, which a School-boy might fully examine in half an
Hour.
'As for new Offices, Officers, or Salaries, I have not
heard of any lately erected, and if any of them should ever
appear in the Estimates delivered into this House, it will then
be Time enough to inquire particularly into them. As for
the late Promotion of General Officers, I hope no Gentleman
will find Fault with it; both because there was no additional
Expence thereby brought upon the Nation, and because it
was absolutely necessary to give our Officers that Rank,
which their Services have intitled them to, in order that they
may be upon an equal Footing with their Cotemporaries in
the Service of those Foreign Powers with whom we are in
Alliance; otherwise, in case we should find it necessary to
join our Forces with any foreign Power, an Officer in the
British Service, by not being promoted soon enough to the
Rank he deserved, might find himself under a Necessity of
submitting to be commanded by a foreign Officer of not near
so long standing in the Army; for every one knows, that in
Detachments from confederate Armies, the Officers generally roll, first according to their Ranks in the Army, and next
according to the Dates of their Commissions.
'To conclude, Sir, if there were any very new and extraordinary Articles in the Estimate of the Navy now under
Consideration, if Gentlemen could shew any doubtful Articles
in it, which could not be immediately set in a clear Light,
there might be some Reason for agreeing to the Motion now
made to us; but as there is no Charge in it but what is usual, I therefore cannot think there is any Occasion for our
referring it to a select Committee.'
To this it was replied by the same Members who were
for the Motion as follows:
Sir,
'The honourable Gentlemen are much in the Right not to
dispute whether there was ever such a Custom, as that mentioned by the honourable Gentlemen who made you the
Motion, because it would be immediately determined by referring to the Journals of the House; it must therefore
stand admitted, that there was once such a Method of Proceeding, but how it came to be laid aside is a Question of a
very different Nature. I shall agree, that a Custom once
established is never laid aside without some Reason; but that
Reason is often very far from being a good one: In the present
Case, it is to be presumed, that this Custom of referring publick Accounts and Estimates to select Committees, was found
to be very troublesome to Ministers; and this was the true
Reason for its being laid aside; but this was so far from being a good Reason for laying it aside, that it will always be
a strong Reason for re-assuming that laudable Custom.
'We are told, Sir, that the reviving of this Custom will
make People suspect, that some very great Frauds have been
lately committed in the Management of the publick Treasure:
But I am of Opinion, that the Nation will be much more
alarmed, at least I am sure they'll have much greater Reason to be alarmed, if they see their Representatives in Parliament every Year receiving Estimates for most prodigious Sums
of Money, and granting all the Sums desired by such Estimates, without ever making the least Inquiry into any one
of them; for in private Life it is most natural to suppose
that a Man will be cheated by his Servants, if he should always pass such Accounts as they are pleased to bring in, without ever examining into any one; and it is not to be supposed that the Servants of the Publick are honester, or less inclined to pilfer, than the Servants of private Men.
'The Duty we owe to his Majesty, ought never, Sir, to
be brought into any Debate in this House; but it was never
more improperly brought in, than it is now by the Gentlemen on the other Side of the Question; for as this House is
the grand Inquest of the Nation, we ought to inquire for
the King as well as for the People: We are in some Manner
his Majesty's Trustees, and ought to take Care, that neither
he nor his People be cheated by the Servants or Officers
he employs; and therefore it is inconsistent with that Duty
we owe to his Majestly, to pass any Accounts, or agree to
any Estimates presented to us by his Officers or Servants, till
we have strictly examined the Truth of every Article.
'The new Articles lately introduced into our Estimates,
may not perhaps be very considerable, but the Charge upon
those, and the additional Charge upon all the old Articles,
amount yearly to a very considerable Sum; and I confess I
never was so clear-sighted as to see at first View, that all
these additional Charges were absolutely necessary for the
publick Service. The Gentlemen say, that the several Articles in our Estimates are all well known, and that the
Charge upon each is likewise known, because it never exceeds what it was in the present Year, without some manifest
Reason: This, Sir, might be some Satisfaction, if any
strict Inquiry had lately been made into any of our Estimates; but as no Inquiry has been made for many Years,
we do not know but Frauds may have been introduced several Years since, and continued to this very Day; therefore,
it can be no Satisfaction to any Man, who has never examined any of those Articles, to find that they do not exceed
the Charge upon the same Articles for several Years past.
But, Sir, I will take upon me to affirm, that most of the
Articles in all our Estimates; especially that of the Navy,
are of such a Nature, that it is impossible to say whether
they are overcharged or not, without examining into them
every Year: This every Man must be convinced of, who
will but look into the several Articles of the Estimate of the
Navy now upon our Table. Can any Gentleman determine how much will be necessary for maintaining superannuated Sea-Officers, or for paying Pensions, without inquiring yearly into the Number and Quality of such Officers
or Pensions? Can any Gentleman determine how much will
be necessary for Half-Pay to Sea-Officers, without inquiring
every Year into the Number and Rank of such Officers?
It is impossible; because by the very Nature of the Service,
it must vary every Year; and most of the other Articles of
the ordinary Estimate of the Navy will be found to be of the
same Nature; therefore, I am surprized to hear it said, that
the Charge upon any of these Articles can be well known
to any Member of this House, or that its not exceeding the
Charge upon the same Article in former Years, can be an
Argument for the Justness of the Charge in any Time to
come.
'I have, Sir, many Questions to ask, which I think necessary for my Information, in relation to every Article of this
Estimate; but it would be ridiculous to expect the proper
Information from any Gentlemen in this House, were he
never so well acquainted with the Affairs of the Navy, because every Article of the Estimate refers to a long particular Account, which ought to be examined, before any other
Gentleman can have that Satisfaction, which we ought to
have as Trustees both for the King and the People. It is
impossible for Gentlemen to discover the Fraud of any Article in an Estimate, or to state their Objections in any regular Method, without examining Persons, Papers, and Records, which cannot be done but by referring the Estimate
to a Select Committee, with proper Powers for that Purpose.
If this be done, I shall think it worth while to ask such
Questions as are necessary for my Information; and I shall
be glad to find the Suspicions I at present entertain, are
without any Foundation.
'What was contained in the Estimates of late, yearly laid
before us, or whether they contained an Account of all
the annual Charge that could be foreseen, I cannot determine; for there is so little Satisfaction to be got from perusing Accounts at our Table, that I never gave myself the
Trouble; but this I can say, that if they contained an Account of all the Charge then necessary, it is very extraordinary, that our Foresight should run above 100,000 l. in Debt
yearly upon the Article of the Navy only. This I cannot
believe, and therefore I am afraid that these Estimates were
made deficient on purpose to conceal, for some Time, from
the Nation the Expence our Measures had made necessary;
because, as our Navy is a favourable Article, it was expected
that the Parliament would readily agree, without any Inquiry, to make that Deficiency good, whenever it should be
thought necessary to make Application for that Purpose. I
am likewise at a Loss to determine whether there was, every
Year, laid before Parliament an Account of the Deficiency
of the Grants for the former Year with respect to our Navy:
But if such an Account was regularly laid every Year before
Parliament, it is with me a very strong Argument for referring every Account and every Estimate to Select Committees; for the Disadvantages attending our running into a
long Arrear are so evident, that I am sure this House would
not have allowed that Arrear to remain so long unsatisfied, if
proper Notice had been taken of the Account of those Arrears, which, 'tis said, were yearly laid upon our Table.
This shews that most of the Gentlemen of this House expect no Satisfaction from a Perusal of any Account at our
Table, and therefore never give themselves the Trouble to
look over them, which proves the Necessity of referring all
such Accounts to be examined by Select Committees.
'I am convinced, that if the ancient Method of inquiring into all Accounts and Estimates, by Select Committees, had been constantly observed, the Debt the Nation now
labours under, would never have risen to so large a Sum,
nor would so small a Part of it been paid off in above twenty
Years profound Peace. The great Haste made in contracting it, and the slow Steps in paying it off, is another Argument for our beginning to look a little more narrowly into
our Affairs, which can be done only by reviving that ancient
Method of Proceeding, which the honourable Gentleman has
now moved for, with respect to the Estimates of the Navy
for this Year.
'What the honourable Gentlemen may mean by Mysteries in Accounts, I do not know; but to me every Article
in the Estimate now before us seems a Mystery, and must
continue a Mystery to every Gentleman, who has never seen
the particular Account to which each Article refers. Can
any Gentleman understand the very first Article, which is
upwards of 28,000 l. per Annum
(fn. 1) , without having looked
into the particular Account of what is paid for Salaries and
other Charges to the Lords of the Admiralty, the Commissioners of the Navy, the Secretaries, Officers, Clerks, and
Contingencies relating thereto ? Or can any Gentleman say,
that this whole Sum is absolutely necessary, without having
examined whether such Commissioners, Secretaries, Officers,
and Clerks, are all necessary for supporting the Business of
that Office, and that such Salaries are necessary for supporting such Officers ? Let us look into every other Article of
the Estimate, and we shall find the same Mystery. Therefore, instead of our not being able to shew any Article that
is mysterious, I must desire the Gentlemen of the other Side
of the Question to shew me any one Article that is not mysterious; especially, considering that no Inquiry has been
made into either of the Articles, I believe I may say, within the Memory of any Gentleman now in this House.
'I hope, Sir, a Negative will not be put upon this Question; for it will certainly give too just an Alarm to the
People of this Nation; they will imagine, that there must
be Errors, and even Frauds, in the Estimates and Accounts
delivered into Parliament, when the very Gentlemen who
deliver them, or at least those who are principally concerned in the making them up, prevent any Inquiry into the
Justice of them: Therefore, if Gentlemen are resolved to
disagree with the Motion, I hope for their own Sakes, and
for the Honour of Parliament, they will put the previous
Question, instead of putting a Negative upon the Question
now before us.'
The Question being then put upon the Motion, it was
carried in the Negative by 256 to 155.