Monday, November 8.
(fn. 1) presented a Petition from Mr Howard, desiring his release out of the Tower.
Col. Birch.] Hears it said that the Petition answers
not the thing for which he stands committed. Would
have the Order read by which he was committed.
Sir George Reeves.] He says, "he expresses himself
sensible of the displeasure of the House," which implies,
he is sorry for it.
[The Order was read.]
Col. Birch.] Now he has heard the Order read; but
he is informed the Petition is not signed. Would know
how we can proceed upon what has no hand to it.
Mr Crouch.] Has more care of your Honour, than
any man's. Would have it signed before you receive it.
Sir Edward Masters.] If he be lame and cannot
write, how can you expect it?
The Speaker.] In complaint of any grievance, the
party signs the Petition, but there is a Member who
tells you that Howard avows every word of the contents
of it. Now the Question is, whether you will credit you
Sir Thomas Lee.] Since his hand may be had to it,
would have it. It may be done in an hour or two's
time, and 'tis not for your honour to receive it unsigned.
The Speaker.] The Petition is entitled, "the humble
Petition of Thomas Howard"—How can you tell it is
his hand if it was signed?
Sir Charles Harbord.] Hopes his release is in Order to
reconciling the thing in difference, and hopes you will
do it before you leave it.
Mr Mallet.] He never saw a paper of a worse nature,
within these walls, and neither by the answer to the
Committee you sent to him, nor when he was here, to
give you any satisfaction!—The Names given to your
Members, as "insolent," &c. go to your whole body,
and religion too.
Sir John Birkenhead.] The Question is now, whether
you will give answer to this Petition, being not signed
by his own numerical hand. Is sorry to hear Members
of the Long Parliament urge this point of "not signing
Petitions," when they know that Petitions in those times
were delivered in the names of many thousands, and yet
not signed. This is averred to be Howard's Petition.
You know how often you have done the contrary. He
would receive it.
Sir Edward Baynton.] Lord Cavendish's Petition was
not delivered without signing it. The sense of the House
being understood, he believes a Petition will be prepared accordingly, and the House will discharge him,
he believes, nemine contradicente.
Mr Sacheverell.] He desires Howard's liberty, as
much as any body, but would have him on an equal
foot with the other honourable Member, Cavendish, whom
Mr Sawyer.] A person is ready to attest that he could
not write, (Mr Roper by name) and therefore he did
not sign it.
Mr Russel.] Lord Morpeth did not say he could not
sign it, but that it was an omission; and Sawyer has
wrong informed the House.
He was discharged upon his Petition.
Col. Birch.] Because you have made a new precedent (how you came to strike up this, he knows not,)
but would have it entered into your books, that he
being not able to sign his Petition, you received it
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would make an Order, that both
Lord Cavendish and Howard should attend the Speaker,
to end the business, and if you find it too big for you,
then to report it to the House, to take some Order in it—
And to be entered in your Books, "That the House
being informed, by Lord Morpeth, that Howard being
not able to sign his Petition, that you receive it without signing."
It was entered accordingly.
Ordered, That Lord Cavendish, Sir Thomas Meres, and Mr
Howard, do attend the Speaker, who is desired to accommodate
the differences between them and report it to the House.
Mr Russel.] Coming through the Hall to day, he
heard of a Priest, one St Germain, who forced one
Mr Luzancy (in company with an English Jesuit, who
spoke broken French,) a minister of the French Church (fn. 2) ,
with a dagger in his hand, (threatning to stab him on
refusal) to sign a Paper of recantation, containing
many seditious things, and that the Nation would turn
to Popery, &c
(fn. 3) .
Sir Henry Goodrick.] Has little to add, but matter of
fact, the thing has been so well related by Russel. But
thinks it his duty to take care that no discouragement
be put upon persons that turn from Popery to our religion. This gentleman, Monsieur Luzancy, is as
learned a man, as any that has turned to our religion.
The Priest, St Germain, belongs to the Dutchess of York,
and so gives an account of the matter. He had the
account from Dr Brevall
Sir Robert Southwell.] That night the Council met,
and Lord Holles was summoned to attend, and he believes the King has the matter under his particular cognizance.
Sir Thomas Lee.] He knows not how the House can
acquiesce in this, when you have an account that one
suspected to be a Jesuit had a hand in this. Some
care should be taken to apprehend this Englishman, who
has walked about the streets, and has done, and may
do, he believes, mischief.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The fact is treason, and though
one of these assassinants be a French Jesuit, 'tis high treason, and one of the greatest violations that was ever done
in a Protestant country. They came to his chamber and
threatened, if he made not a recantation, they would
stab him. By 3 James, " 'Tis treason to draw or persuade any man to be reconciled to the Pope." This may
be an undermining us all. 'Tis not six months since
a secular priest was arraigned and condemned for perverting one from our religion—Prays that care may be
taken, that this St Germain be apprehended presently,
and that the Attorney General may prosecute him.
Sir Philip Musgrave.] This is so great an affront to
the Church, that, if nothing be done in it, the Church
will grow low in esteem. Pray proceed with all expedition in it.
Sir Charles Harbord.] This goes beyond all precedents, to persuade, not only with arguments, but poignards ! He never heard the like way before. Moves
that the Chief Justice may issue out a general Warrant
to take him ubicumque fuerit in Angliâ, to be indicted
for the King's honour, justice, and safety.
Sir John Birkenhead.] He values the thing the more,
because Luzancy, by coming over to our Church, has
done great hurt to the Church of Rome. He has written against it. But this St Germain is a Frenchman,
and not within the statute of 3 James—Insinuando by
poignards, and daggers, as the story goes, to renounce
God, and then stab him, to be revenged both of body
and soul! These strangers to come in this manner to
the King's subjects !—He hears Luzancy, though he be
not naturalized, yet is denizened, and made the King's
subject. The King has taken cognizance of it, you are
told, and believes you will have an effect of it suddenly.
If not, do what you please.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] The fact is a violence offered to this convert, Monsieur Luzancy. On Thursday
the King sent for him, to the Lords House; the King
had a paper in his hand, given him by Lord Holles, relating the violence offered this Luzancy, on the fourth
of October last, (and so gives an account of the paper.)
The King sent to have Luzancy examined, and the parties were warned to be at the Council at five of the
clock. At seven Luzancy comes, and was examined
upon oath; the next day he promised to bring his witnesses. When he was examined upon oath, the Bishop
of Oxford went to hear the examination. The King was
presented with the examiners in the afternoon, and, if
it could be, he gave Order for a special Council, but
it sat not, and this day there is a Council extraordinary
for the thing.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] For ought he perceives, here is
a failure of justice. Would know whether the Secretary,
when he had this information, did send a warrant to attach St Germain.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] He sent a messenger to
attach this St Germain, but he was not to be found.
He gave his papers to the King; he had his direction,
and obeyed it,
Sir Thomas Meres.] There is a motion made to apprehend these two priests, and he seconds it.
Mr Attorney Montagu.] The King, as you are
informed, has taken early notice of it, and as much as
can be done. But it will be very ill if we do not something in it. Moves that two of our Members may go
to the Lord Chief Justice for a warrant to apprehend
Mr Williams.] There is more than a violent presumption, that these persons are guilty of the fact. The
statute gives directions in it, and he would have the Lord
Chief Justice sent to for his warrant.
Col. Sandys.] The Priest has done you a kindness.
The nation is full of them, and would have a warrant
to search for all Priests and Jesuits in general.
Resolved, That the Lord Chief Justice be desired forthwith
to issue his warrant in particular to apprehend those Jesuits,
and another to search for and apprehend all Priests and Jesuits
Sir William Coventry.] In town and country these
Priests gain converts. 'Tis still a poison, and still a
danger. This Priest has done you service, though, he
thinks, he did not intend it. It seems he is not only
threatened to be stabbed, but put into a convent, and
how he would be used there, you may imagine—Would
have us to think also of the protection of converts that
come over to our Church, and would have the Committee to consider a way to protect and encourage converts.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Goes to it with great haste,
and no coolness. He sent a messenger to attach this
person, not a quarter of an hour after he was commanded.
Mr Sacheverell.] Is informed that several such persons
are daily at the Court. Would have the Committee examine by whose default the Proclamation is not executed
upon these persons.
Mr Buller.] Would have enquiry made, at the Committee, why there is no execution of the Laws. Many
Catholics are indicted; and their conviction neglected.
Sir Henry Ford.] All kinds of Converts ought to be
encouraged, as well as those to conformity, as others.
Sir Charles Harbord.] The King has settled sixty
pounds per ann. on the French Church, and would have
the King thanked for it.
(fn. 4) .] proffered a paper to be read concerning
The Speaker said.] The Paper tells you I know not
what, and comes from I know not whom.
The paper was read, being an account of the assault upon
Sir Thomas Meres.] The paper may be some help to
the Committee for preparing your law against Popery
Sir Allen Apsley.] He has seen a paper from St Germain's friend so far different from this, that he would
have Luzancy sent for by the Committee.
Col. Birch.] Is glad the House is so sensible of these
things. It may be of great service to us. There is
seldom any judgment upon a nation, but the great God
gives us great warnings, and hopes we shall make use
of them. If they begin with this sport of stabbing, he
believes we shall have the better of it. This Monsieur,
(he cannot remember French names) St Germain, Apsley
has proposed something in defence of. If he be at liberty to write in his own defence, he wonders how
Secretary Williamson could not meet with him.
Sir Allen Apsley.] The paper of renouncing the Protestant religion was an offer of Luzancy's own, and
done of his own accord.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Apsley said, "A friend of St.
Germain's brought him this paper—" Would have that
friend found out.
Sir Allen Apsley.] Said he knew not the person's name
that brought him the paper, (being ordered to name him)
but would enquire him out against to-morrow.
Sir William Hickman.] Would not take such a paper,
unless you knew from whom it came. When the King
and Kingdom are concerned, would know the person.
Sir Allen Apsley.] Protests before God he knows him
Sir John Hotham.] Would have the person described.
'Tis strange he should take no notice of a person with
such a paper.
Sir Philip Harcourt.] 'Tis strange, that Apsley should
produce a man to the Committee whom he knows not.
Sir Francis Drake.] It would do well that care was
taken of converts—We'll step farther—Has heard that
a Priest was arraigned, condemned, and not executed,
for perverting—Would have an Address to the King,
that, for the future, none such should be pardoned.
Serjeant Seys.] 'Tis death, in France, to come off from
the Romish to the Protestant religion. Would have
Apsley asked the circumstances of time and place, and
of the person, and if he has the paper, to produce it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Would know who got the reprieve for the condemned Priest, and address the King
Sir Thomas Lee.] As it is an extraordinary difficulty to
convict a Priest, so 'tis dangerous to them that do it,
at this rate. The Priest mentioned being set at liberty,
'tis a fair way to have nothing done in it. Moves therefore that an Address be made to the King, that no Priest
convicted may have his pardon, but execution be done;
and to know who got the reprieve for the last Priest—
But he willingly goes off from that motion of an Address, hoping that, in the state of the nation, to morrow to be considered, it will end in such an Address.
The Bill of Popery was read [the third time] containing a
Test upon Lords and Commons in Parliament, &c.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Moves to leave out the Test "upon
the whole Parliament." It will never else pass the
Lords House; besides it takes away the people's rights
in Elections—He said privately to me, [Mr Gray, the
Compiler] "That it was only to enter his claim against
all manner of Tests."
Sir Thomas Meres.] The Bill is only, that Papists
should not make laws, nor have influence at Court.
There is no taking away privileges of Elections in it.
It imposes not at all. But the people may be mistaken
in their choice. The oath of Allegiance and Supremacy is now taken, at the door, before any Member
sits here, and, if refused, he cannot sit. This is only
that the fountain of executive and legislative justice may
be purged. Would rather go a milder way, by prevention, than punishment; and would have the Bill.
Mr Sawyer.] Believes, no Protestant Lord will be
against this Bill. In King James's time the Popish Lords
did forbear to sit in Parliament. The giving the oath
of Allegiance is perfectly a new thing; an innovation.
In Queen Mary's time there was no purgation.
The Bill passed and was entitled, "An Act for hindering
Popish Recusants to sit in either House of Parliament."
In a Grand Committee on the way of raising the Supply.
Sir John Trevor in the Chair.
Sir John Hotham.] Moves that this tax may be levied
upon the Jews, who are wealthy, and may well bear it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] They pay privately already for
licences to be here.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Would have this tax upon the
Jews for paying off the Anticipations on the Customs.
This is the first time that ever we had a tax here for
the Navy; the Customs being granted for that purpose.
He knows no way, mathematically equal, for raising
this money. But the most equal way (the nation having
the benefit of this, he hopes, for their safety) is the
Sir John Holman.] In all places but here, the Jews
have marks of infamy. They live greatly, and he would
have them taxed.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] He fears, if we raise money upon
them, we shall establish them by an Act—He believes
they pay money for their Toleration, but knows not
Sir Thomas Lee.] Since a certain sum is for the greatest use and safety, and to comply with the King's desires, a land tax is the most certain way of raising it, and
if the ships are not built, he knows where you will lay
Sir Edmund Jennings.] Has heard much talk of the
poverty of the nation, but now it seems we are grown
rich on a sudden. Has heard that people should sell
bread to buy bacon, but if this be upon land they must
sell both. Drawing people hither decays rents in the
country—Would have some other way found out, as
by imposition on the French trade—Would consider also
how we come to want ships—Has there not been the breach
of the Triple League, the alliance with France, the Dutch
war? If promoters of such counsels were known, why
are not their estates made liable to forfeitures to pay
these taxes? Before you proceed to Land Tax, receive
some other proposals. How will you answer it to the
country, when there is no occasion to raise money?
Sir Thomas Lee.] Wonders Jennings should cast a reflection upon the House, who thought it necessary to
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Thinks that Jennings would do
very good service to the nation, if he could find out the
promoters of these Counsels. He has his estate in London,
and Essex, where the rates are exceeding high in taxes.
But knows no other way you can raise this Money.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] The taxes lie hard upon them
in Surry. He could wish for a Chamber of Justice,
that persons may be called to account, how, in so short
a time, they have raised such great estates. So long as
land is free, we shall have Land Tax asked us, whatever we give else. Therefore he is now for it.
Col. Titu.] The breakers of the Triple Alliance, and
the promoters of the French league, are dead, and he
is not for experiments in this House, Yet now, though
he can the least bear it, he's for it.
Sir William Wentworth
(fn. 5) .] New buildings and a land
tax the last prorogation) when all other things fail.
Mr Boscawen.] When the Ship-rates were, there was
no such thing as land tax; the Council had then values
delivered in by the rates of the trained bands. Cornwall was as much as the thirteen counties of Wales, by
reason they were seven regiments of trained bands.
Norfolk, &c. over-rated, not by reason of being the
associated counties, but for the same reason. Next after
the Ship-rates was 400,000l. before the war. Devonshire, in the Ship-rates, was low, and Cornwall high.
Sir Walter Raleigh came down, in Queen Elizabeth's
time, a Commissioner for both counties. The North
was easy on the Ship-rates—And that relieved them
again. There is no kind of proportion between counties, and some parts in them, some parts being extravagantly high, and some low. The subsidy man was supposed to be a man of substance. Land tax is on all
men—And they pay the greatest part of chimney money,
and excise, and 'tis reason; the most ordinary people
being the most mutinous, should not have a burden
laid on them now. 'Tis an easier matter to pick out
a man of 1000l. per ann. than ten per ann.—He is much
against land tax, and had rather pay 100,000l. more
by way of subsidy. The French match, and the English
subsidy, did conquer all France, and therefore he is for
Mr Waller] The ship money maintained the sea by
the dry land. The Venetians beat the Grand Seignor
by sea, not by land, tax. The judges, in the ship money,
were not judges of the necessity of raising it, but the
law by which it might be raised, though we are judges
of that necessity. Tonnage and poundage was granted
for defence of the sea. And it troubles him that a land tax
must supply the sea. We have trade, but an ill balanced
trade, and if we come to land to maintain the sea, the
nation is undone. Wishes a tax that way that is most
natural, for this purpose, viz. upon merchandize, to
discourage the extravagant consumption of foreign commodities; but rather than not have these ships built,
is for land tax.
Mr Powle.] One reason for land tax is, he thinks you
can do no other way, which is strong. Another reason
is, he fears, if land is not taxed with this, it will be
taxed with something else.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] For seventeen months 68082l.
13 s. 3d. If you add a week more, it will be 1000l.
Mr Boscawen.] Moves it may be for eighteen months.
Col. Birch.] If he thought this would lead to any
more objections, of more or less money raised—He
never saw the closeness in a petty business ever did
good. If once you come to defend the sea, by your
land, your land will be worth nothing. We have some
bills that he hopes are worth twice the money, and if
he thought those bills would not pass, would give his
negative to this. Put it for eighteen months tax, and
he hopes there will be no negative.
Resolved, That the supply [not exceeding 300,000l.] be raised by a land tax, and monthly assessment.
Resolved, That the said supply be raised by 18 months assessment, according to the proportion of 17,204l. 17s. 3d.
per month, to be paid by quarterly payments—Which comes to
as much more of the 300,000l. as will defray the charge of collecting it.
Mr Sacheverell.] "That 'tis the sense of the Committee, no more be raised." Is one of those that loves
to be quiet, therefore would have no other charge laid
on the subject this Session of Parliament.
Sir Tho. Meres.] Certainly 'tis only proper to raise
money at a Grand Committee, but we need but speak
once to deny it, and therefore that may be done in
the House—There is no hurt done to the people in
not giving. Therefore, though the Speaker says otherwise, 'tis Order. At this time of the night, 'tis hard
to sit, but yet 'tis brave.
Sir William Hickman.] There needs little argument
to make good this Motion, the sense of gentlemen is
so well known. Therefore he seconds the Motion.
Sir John Talbot.] 'Tis the natural Question, Agree, or
not agree, with the Committee.
Sir John Birkenhead.] To make this an integral part
of the Question, is not proper.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The reason is granted, therefore
he speaks only to Order. This is a matter relative to
the other two Questions, and will induce consent to
the other part of the Question. This is an addition
no way different from the former Question; 'tis relative
to, and agreeing with it—But not to be without the
Question, either put the main Question, or previous
Question, which you please.
Col. Birch.] To the Orders of the House. It has
been a received opinion since he knew the House, whenever gentlemen desire words to be part of the Question,
'tis never denied that those words should be put to the
Question, whether they shall be part or not. When
you are told, without the addition, we can agree, or
not agree; then the words are added to the Question.
Sir John Duncombe.] 'Tis said these words of "not
exceeding," are relative to the rest of the Vote. They
are as giving money, and giving no money. Therefore
we ought not to add the words. 'Tis such a jealousy,
and distrusting the King, as if we were jealous of ourselves. Can you bind yourselves by a Vote? No Vote
can bind you to the losing your liberty. 'Tis against
our very call hither. If more money be given, it
must have all its circulations at a Committee. 'Tis
not possible to carry money from this House. He
knows not what use other men may make of it, in
future Parliaments, though he believes gentlemen mean
Mr Sacheverell.] There was a Vote, two or three years
since, of the same nature.
Sir Henry Ford.] You may limit yourselves, but 'tis
not prudence to do it. You have voted twenty ships,
and your neighbours exceed you forty. You must be
affronted if you keep to your Vote. Many, he fears
have watched for this occasion. You know not emergencies.
The Speaker.] "And that no other charge be laid
upon the subject this Session of Parliament," to be the
addition to the Question.
It passed, 145 to 103 (fn. 6) .
Tuesday, November 9.
A Bill to prevent the exportation of Wool, [was read the
Sir Richard Temple.] Has considered the most effectual
way to prevent exportation of Wool, and thinks that
the best way to prevent it, is to let your yarn be exported. When you withheld your white cloths from
Holland, you set up that manufacture there. The Dyers
could not live, and so they sat up that manufacture.
Could they have your yarns they would not be so
greedy of your wool; and so destroy that manufacture
abroad. He offers it to be recommended to the Committe, to let yarn go out as the first manufacture.
But what's above all, we encourage not the manufacture of cloth by our wear. We usually had suits and
cloaths of the same cloth, which was a great consumption
of the wool, and now we wear stuff and silks. If you
therefore destroy not the wear of French manufacture,
you spoil all trade at home.
Col. Birch.] There are no hopes that our yarn shall
ever be received abroad, when they can spin it at the
same rate we do; but the cry of the cheapness of wool
comes from this cause. We have more than England
can spend, as we have more corn than we can eat.
Since the Bill for forbidding Irish Cattle, this evil is
come upon you. They have above a third part more
wool, by that Act, in Ireland, than they had before,
having turned their ground from breeding Cattle to
breeding Sheep. But this is not all the evil. He appeals to any man, if he knew not the Exchange of money
into Ireland to be above five, six, or seven per cent,
and now it comes even into the exchange. In a few
years, at this rate, England will be made Ireland, and
Ireland England. The fall of the Exchange comes thus.
We sent 400,000l. per ann. the Exchange at seven
per cent. and instead of this we send not now 60,000l.
per ann. Will you have wool rise, when you stop the
passage of it where it should go? There are gone out
of the West of England one hundred woollen manufacturers into Ireland. Then either let wool go out of
England, or use it. Export it wrought, or unwrought,
free, with a certificate, at the Custom house, of six pence,
to see only how we balance trade with the world. Next,
he would have that Bill of prohibiting Irish Cattle repealed—Scotland has done the same thing—There was
a Commission to settle trade between them and us, but
it is broke up—Would refer it to a Committee to consider of a free trade, and, particularly, he offers to your
consideration the repeal of the Irish Bill, which will
do your work.
Mr Swynsin.] Wool is a drug, because we have more
product than England can spend; that seems to be the
cause. But if we consider, whether more sheep are not
bred than ordinary, consider, in fact, the late great rot of
sheep, which consumed six of ten parts of the wool,
which was little useful for cloth. But how can this be
the cause of this falling of wool upon the rot? It cannot be then from the multitude of the sheep. But
would have it shown how Ireland is the cause, as is
said, by breeding so many more sheep, because their
cattle are forbidden here. Land here, by that consequence, will be turned into breeding cattle, as Ireland
is said to be for sheep. In Ireland there was a great
rot of sheep likewise; there was one with him, who,
within six months, had been in Ireland, and assured
him sheep sold dearer there than in England. Those
lands, on which they breed cattle in Ireland, are not
sit for breeding sheep, as you have been told. It will
rot them if they breed them off ground of two shillings an acre, and cheaper; and they will breed better than we can do on ten shillings an acre, besides the
largeness of the acre; and that they can do it with fewer
people than we can; and our land, by repealing the
Irish Act, may be reduced to the rate of Ireland. Would
not therefore assign a cause for the fall of wool, where
there is none. Upon the Irish Act, our lands did manifestly rise, and the repeal of it would fall all the land
of England, at that rate, in time.
Col. Birch.] Desires leave to answer Swynsin who
says, six sheep of ten died of the rot. If we have now
two or three years wool by us, how many more years
should we have if no rot?
Mr Swynsin.] Birch has strengthened his argument
for the Irish Act's not being repealed—Will make it appear, that this Kingdom has lost a million before that
Act, and Ireland hath made a Scotch and French Trade.
The Speaker.] It may be made appear that England
is worse by a million for it.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Since you have made Bills for
prohibiting wool, and Irish cattle, the price of wool
has fallen. For experiments, if one way will not do,
we must try another. He is for limited exportation of
wool—But you cannot hinder wool going out of England—Therefore would refer it to a Committee.
Mr Boscawen.] If you export wool, you will have
most of the Clothiers about your ears—Would not encourage that experiment. You should take a course
for exporting the manufacture. The Companies of Trade
should take care to export more. The Irish Act is a
very remote cause in this. 'Tis a vain thing to believe that all Ireland will breed sheep in their bogs. If
their cattle should come in, there would be as great a cry
against cattle as now against wool. All your cattle must fall.
For one shilling, an acre may be had as soon as for twelve
here—Vessels for transporting cattle here will be, in effect, a bringing Ireland hither. The merchants find the
woollen trade dead, and therefore must we repeal the
Irish Act? Whereas all trade is dead also.
Mr Love.] Suppose the Irish Act were repealed, what
would you do with more than you could spend? As for
that of yarn, it would be the last experiment you are
like ever to make—Cockets would be produced, and
customers hands and seals counterfeited. Other men
can sell cheaper than we can do abroad, the duties are
so great on dying commodities, and allum twice as
much as formerly. If ever you will reduce the woollen
manufacture, some extraordinary course must be taken.
Sir Charles Harbord.] This was projected first by
Sir William Cockayne, who erected a new Corporation,
which continued four or five years, and the proprietors
got masses. But when the people saw that their bread was
taken out of their mouths; when comes the severity, that
men of great learning, if not entirely conformable,
must not be preferred; they went abroad, and many
clothiers with their looms went with them—Eight gilders in Holland is thirty shillings here—In Leyden were
made 28000 cloths, and 8000 pieces of blanket.
This was a monstrous thing—Your cloth, not taken off
well, must lie upon your hands. This has undone the
wool-grower; he has four or five years wool upon his
hands. If you take no remedy in this, all the wealth of
England will swim into France, and other parts.
Mr Papillon.] If we drive all the wool into France,
they will out-do us, and Holland. Some say, 'tis the
East-India company—But they send 40,000l. worth
away yearly. To France, whither we used to carry
40 or 50,000l. worth yearly, we carry now not forty.
Sir William Coventry.] France is thinking of getting
a trade we have not—Would be loth yet to come to the
experiment of transporting wool. One pound of wool,
manufactured here, is better for the nation than seventy
that are not. Those advise you best, that tend to exportation of your manufacture, or spending it at home. In
King James's and King Charles's time, we had almost the
sole manufacture of wool—They find that gentlemen affect not the coarse, and the Dutch made fine thin cloths
of Spanish wool, and out-vend us—Upon the comparison of cattle and wool, Irish cattle must be brought
alive, and must eat, and cost dearer abroad than at home;
together with the hazard, on ship-board, of bringing the
same, and dying, and spoiled, together with the charge,
&c. Great value may be brought over in wool, and
little in cattle in a vessel—It is very good to use more
woollen manufacture at home; but that is not all; we
shall be poor if we export not our manufacture. If
wool should be exported, the product of so many hands
would be gone also—As to the argument, that the product
of England is much increased, though the rise of land is
not, by clover-grass, liming and watering; yet we have
fewer people than ever we had, and more product, by
the plantations, Ireland, (and speaks not of the plague
and war) which continually drain from us. He likes
the expedients of free exportation of the manufacture—
But if land be not otherwise employed, we shall ever be
decreasing. The most obvious way (to him) to remedy
this, is the planting hemp and flax, the best, if not the
only, remedy to help us; and, in spite of all remedies,
when the merchant cannot vend, and the clothier cannot
make cloth, the people will mutiny. Hunger will
break stone walls. Hands may be numerously employed
in the manufacturing of hemp; but, as it now is, we
have money sent abroad for linnen—When a plenty of
corn comes, we have as much cry for the cheapness of
corn, as we have now of wool.
Mr Sacheverell.] He wonders to hear gentlemen offer at
this of bringing in Irish cattle. None can deny but that
their coming in must lessen the price of our breeding
cattle. In the county of Derby, it has brought our cattle almost to nothing, and will do so again; and many
breeding counties will be destroyed by it, for the sake
of two or three. He can never agree to it
Mr Garroway.] If you suffer only the inhabitants to
seize, and they make a fraudulent composition about
these cattle, your Act will never take effect—They bring
in daily alive, and in barrels.