Monday, March 11.
In a Grand Committee on the King's Speech.
Sir John Guise.] There are three points touched upon
in the King's Speech, relating to Money. The first is
in relation to the advantage we have had from Holland, and what they have done for us, which we ought
to be mighty sensible of, and touched with: And Gratitude becomes us—The danger for their Fleet in winter, &c. and the hazard that may be brought upon them
by it. The next is, the consideration of Ireland: I
would willingly have seen the State of the Army, and
the Expence. The next is the Revenue, of which I
would have all the branches before you, that you may
consider, whether it shall be settled for Life, or Years.
Mr Papillon.] The consideration of Ireland, the
Fleet, and Holland, all depend upon the Revenue, of
which some is for Life, some for a term of Years.
Some, the other day, thought all the Revenue was
vested in the King; others did doubt it; therefore we
ought to put it past doubt. Therefore I move for an Act
to give and grant the Revenue to the King, that it
may be collected without dispute, and an indemnity
for the collecting it since the Vacancy; and if the State
of the Revenue be ready, I would have it delivered in
by Sir Robert Howard.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I would have the redundancy
of the Crown Revenue, after the Government is supplied, applied to the uses desired in the King's Speech;
I mean, take the Customs to be 600,000l. one year
with another. The Excise is a Revenue by itself.
See to have also the Addition upon Linnen, Brandy,
and Silk, and 400,000l. taken up upon them, and
little to be depended on them—The Hereditary Revenue—The end of my proposition is, whether the
Committee will take the Revenue as given in, or as I
have reported it. I humbly propose, whether you will
grant it for Life, or Years? I leave it to you.
Mr Garroway.] The Paper I have come by agrees
with Clarges's account; but I think you are not ripe
to come to that Question, whether the Revenue be
standing, or not—Whether the Charges, for particular
persons uses, upon the Revenue, shall continue? Begin,
upon a fair clean paper, these Charges, whether they
shall be continued, or taken away; and in that I shall
serve you as well as I can.
Mr Sacheverell.] I take it, the Revenue ceases; 'tis
rasa tabula; and I would have a short Bill to declare it
so. Then you may declare such a part hereditary; but
I shall be against a great Revenue, as in former time.
If all may begin anew, I am ready to agree.
Sir Robert Cotton.] If you declare all the Revenue
fallen with King James, consider that all the Revenue
has been wrongfully collected since the Abdication.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I hope you may have a shorter way.
I remember, when the Debate was the other day, some
were of opinion, that the Revenue discontinued; the
Hereditary Revenue was in another condition; but
the House avoided that Question, and referred it to a
Committee. The hereditary part of the Excise is not
above 300,000 l. per Ann. granting it to be in the King
and his Successors from such a day from the time you
have declared the Abdication.
Col. Birch.] I think, the Parliament were very prudent in the year 1661. The case was then directly as
it is now. The Revenue was supposed to cease, and
many, in London and elsewhere, hesitated the payment.
You will not find it in your Journal, but in another
place; and they declared, that it should be collected as
legally as it was, for about six weeks, by reason that,
in the mean time, they might settle it as now it is.
Pass therefore a Question, that the Revenue be collected as legally it might have been, &c. till farther consideration be had of it. In short, the country do generally hesitate, and keep all in their hands except
15d. the Barrel. Therefore first put the Question,
that the Money may come in to the respective Offices;
and I would now order a Bill accordingly.
Mr Garroway.] I think you are not yet come so far.
You say, it shall be collected; but you do not say to
what end. Will you be tied up, by such a Vote, before you determine whether it be a standing Revenue,
or an Aid? We know the burden of it, if you had, in
Charles I's, Charles II's, and JamesII's time declared it so:
You will have a hard task to alter it, without declaring
it now to alter it hereafter. Declare it, one part as
Revenue, the other as an Aid and Supply; otherwise
I shall be against the Question.
A Bill, from the Lords, for annulling and making void Lord
Russel's Attainder, interposed in the Debate, [and was read the
Mr Finch.] I see many Gentlemens eyes are upon
me; therefore I stand up to give an account of my
Reasons for the part I acted in that unfortunate business, that may more immediately concern me. (He was
taken down to Order, not speaking properly against the
Bill) I am easily satisfied with the Determination of
this House. I am sure, my Motion is for reading the
Bill a second time. I stand up only for one Clause in
the Bill. Every Gentleman knows, as well as myself,
that a Conspiracy to levy War against the King, is
Treason, by the Statute 25 Edward III. (He was taken
down again to Order.) Give me leave to vindicate myself; what I shall offer will be very short; the Reasons I had to urge that point of Treason: If Law-Books
have led me in the wrong, I am ready to rectify my
opinion, whether to conspire, without levying War,
be Treason. 'Tis to conspire the King's death, to
keep him in custody till such things be done. 'Tis to
conspire, as in the case of Dr Storey, to invite a foreign
Prince to invade the Kingdom, though nothing followed upon it. 'Twas Treason in Lord Cobham's case,
upon Debate of all the Judges, in the Report—
"Conspiracy to levy War against the King" was, to
conspire against the Life of the King. To throw open
all inclosures generally all over the Kingdom, was the
case of the Miller of Oxfordshire, who was actually executed. Upon this the difference stands in Books.
Any general design (though not immediately against
the King's person) to keep him in custody, till he had
confirmed any thing that the People would have, is
Treason; as in the case of Rea and Ramsey, in Rushworth's Collection—To raise War against the King, all
the Judges declared it Treason. Having said this, it
is authority enough for any Lawyer to do what I did.
Whether the Judges were in the wrong, I shall not determine. He was taken down again by
Sir Henry Goodrick.] 'Tis strange to me to hear that
learned Gentleman vindicate himself, when nobody accuses him, and thereby to arraign the justice of the Bill
for repealing the barbarity of this Attainder by this
murder. This is not to be suffered.
The Speaker.] The learned Gentleman, from his
own vindication in the part he acted relating to this
noble Lord, &c. has let himself into Law-Books, against
the Orders of the House.
Mr Finch.] I ask pardon of the House. What I
said was not against Order, since the House gave me
leave to vindicate myself. I only showed you what I
had read, and am far from arraigning this noble person; I did not intend it, and have as much respect for
this noble family as any body. And now I have vindicated myself as to my proceedings in matter of Law.
I desire the Bill may be read a second time.
Sir Henry Capel.] For respect to the family and the
memory of this noble Lord, I am sorry this Gentleman did speak; and to vindicate the memory of this
noble Lord, read the Bill presently. He has cited
Book-cases to justify his proceedings, &c. which is
properly at a second reading. I am surprized at this
Gentleman's proceeding, and am sorry he has proceeded so far.
Sir William Pulteney.] I have as much honour for
this person, &c. and noble family, as any body; but I
would keep up Order. I would not have the Bill read
a second time now, but to-morrow. This learned
Gentleman did make a vindication of himself. I will
not undertake to answer him presently; I may have
occasion to answer him to-morrow.
Sir Robert Howard.] I cannot name Lord Russel
without disorder. I would neglect all things to read
this Bill a second time. Perhaps the learned Gentleman may tell us how large the Law is then; 'tis a sufficient thing to name that noble Lord. I am not able
to say any more; but pray read the Bill.
Sir Thomas Lee.] This Bill declares, "that the LawBooks the learned Gentleman has quoted were wrong.;"
and if he doubts it, the reading it a second time will
set that part right.
[The Bill (by Order) was read a second time.]
Mr Boscawen.] I have hearkened diligently to the
learned person's Law-cases. By the 25th of Edw. III,
we are Judges here of the true intent of that Statute;
and I would have it read—(which was.) I observe, by
that Statute, the abridging Treason certain, which was
before uncertain, for favour of the Subject. It seems
to me strange, if compassing the death of the King
should be Treason, and levying War, in another place
of the Statute: If that be false, it must be taken out of
the Bill. To me it seems to be a great wresting of the
Law. It seems to me to be a transcendent wresting of
the Law. Pray read the Bill a third time.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I think the Bill is carefully
penned, and I think the most that Lord Russel could
be guilty of, was but Misprision of Treason, War being not actually levied.
Sir Thomas Lee.] If there be no objection against
the Bill, it need not be committed.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] In one Clause of the Bill there
may be two or three words left out. It is said, "It is
at the request of the Earl of Bedford and Lady Russel
only." The justice of the Nation is greater to you
than any particular Person's inducement. This Bill is not
ex Gratia, all the Nation is concerned in it. When it
is ex Gratia, it ought to be signed by the King.
[The Bill was ordered to be committed.]
On Mr Howe's Motion for repealing Col. Sidney's Attainder.
The Speaker.] The usual way is to petition the King
for the reversal of an Attainder, but I know not whether
it is the usual way for the Commons to petition for a
Bill, but with the Bill the Petition of the parties is annexed.
The Grand Committee was resumed.
Mr Pollexfen.] From doubting one part of the Revenue
or another, we may come to think there is no Revenue
at all; and now settle it by Bill. You have brought in
question the collecting of the Revenue, and given indemnity to those that gathered it, and, in the mean
time, you give the Revenue to nobody. This is so great
a loss of time, that it is not serviceable to you, nor the
present occasion of the Nation, nor for the reputation of
your affairs abroad. I thought it was taken for granted
that it was a Revenue in the Crown, &c. and when
you have done, three months hence you will be in the
same doubts. You will have as much to do in this,
as to determine whether it shall be for Life, or Years.
To talk of "assisting the King with your Lives and Fortunes," and not to enable the King!—To give him power
to take the Revenue, and now to declare it is no Revenue! Settle it one way or other, without any thing
of gathering it for three months upon uncertainty. This
will lead you into such a course that you will not know
the end of it.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I think this does not lose your
time, if you will settle the Revenue. You saw, since
Pollexfen declared his opinion, the People have been still
more in doubt. The Motion is made for all the Revenue, in the lump, and this may be passed in two
or three days. Then you will consider Ships, the King's
family, Ambassadors, Judges, the Army, and a part
for the King's necessary support. Then you will find
what may be spared for the Public, and how to supply
it; till this be considered, what in time of Peace is requisite, and what in War; if three months be too little,
make it six. When the State of War is known, you
will know how near this will go to the payment.
Sir John Lowther.] I will speak plainly what every
man's heart is full of. The King has expressed himself
in all kindness. He has trusted you with all he has in
the World, and given into your hands a considerable
part of the Revenue; and if you have the same jealousy
of him, after all he has done and may do, this will
gratify the Jesuits and France more than 200,000l.
distributed and well given in the House of Commons, to
bring about their interest—
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] Seeing you have not taken
notice, Mr Hampden, of what has been said to the Orders of the Committee, I do take notice of it.
Sir John Lowther.] What I said of Money, I meant
to particular Persons. There have been People who have
received Money, and seeing the Jesuits and Papists have
spread these reports abroad, and foreign Ministers will
make Alliances with the States of Holland, and then
if that State cease their intercourse with the King, application will be made to the House of Commons,
who give the Money, and not to the King—The wise
part of the House of Commons will understand this,
though the weak do not.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I am sorry that, at this time, when
all manner of Duty has been expressed to the King from
this House, there should be reflections of "200,000l.
well given here." I remember, Persons in former Parliaments had Places, and were to receive the Money
they gave, therefore were freer to give Money than
others, and we did fear to give Money to others, and
not to the King. Though we are not all upon one
footing of Honour and Trust, we are upon one equal
footing of Trust for our Country. I cannot make the
Revenue be for longer time than has been proposed.
Is it not fit that you should have three months to turn you
in, that abuses may not be in the collection of the Revenue? Therefore it is fit that for this temporary Bill
you give it for three months, or as long as you please.
Sir William Williams.] In the last Parliament, he was
the bravest man, and some said, fellow, that would give
the King most Money. All were so much for giving,
that the King said, he would have no more that Session.
We are not now a Parliament of Officers. We represent now all the People, the wise and the weak. And
I represent the weak. 'Tis not the work of weak
men, to declare a present Provision for the Crown.
Sir John Lowther.] I was mistaken in not giving the
Revenue for three months, but only for collecting what
Revenue King James had, and that Question you have
had ready for you—A safe, wise, and a sudden Resolve!
The King did distinguish betwixt the Collection of the
Revenue and the Settlement. I would declare it for
Sir Richard Temple.] I would have all Arguments
forborne of distrust betwixt the King and us. I am
very far from desiring the short Bill to be brought in
for delay of Settlement of the Revenue. Can it be
imagined that Bills should be brought in for all the
Revenue, on a sudden? I would make no distinction in the
Bill of what is continued and what not. Not by way
Sir Robert Howard.] I speak not for the poor or the
rich, the weak or the strong, of the House. I have
an Office, but in some Offices I would not have been
employed,—(reflecting upon Williams) By the way, I
would show by a Motion to continue the Grand Committe, and to proceed on the Settlement of the Revenue; though for the present we proceed only on
the Temporary Bill.
Mr Boscawen.] According to course of Parliament, if
you grant the King an Aid, and he accept it, the Answer
is, Grandmerciey ses bons sujets, &c. If this be no
Grant, what Answer shall the King give to this Bill?
If as a Grant of Subsidy, the King thanks for it.
There is not so much danger in the fault of collecting it as
going this way. I am of opinion rather of a Vote of
the Lords and Commons to strengthen it for the present.
I shall agree to it, but it is an ill expedient, and you
will be in this box, and not know how to get out of it.
Mr Eyre.] If this be determined, you arrive not at
your end. I see, in this matter of the Revenue, we go
on very heavily. In a matter of this moment to support the honour of the King, whatever you do in this
Bill, if it goes as is proposed, you do less than nothing, to the joy of your Enemies, and sorrow of your
Friends. Therefore I propose a Vote, that you grant
the King a Revenue for Life of 1,200,000l. per ann.
made up of such Items as in the particular, &c. A
great Revenue has been a great Grievance, but it was
by no other method than we had put in their hands.
Such a Revenue will be an evidence of affection to the
King, and will support the necessary charge of the
Kingdom. And while this is the standard, it can
have no oppression; and less than this proposed cannot
be thought of. It will be in a Protestant hand, and
you cannot doubt but the spareable part will be treasured up for the good of the Subject.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] It has been well moved a great
while since, and I wonder at no conclusion upon it. To
settle it for three months is the most acceptable and expeditious thing you can do. The King does not expect
that you should settle the Revenue immediately, without great caution and consideration. Therefore that
the King may be in no inconvenience, settle it for three
months; which will be so far from a distrust, that it
is kindly and gratefully done by the People, and the
King will take it well from you.
Mr Finch.] You give the King double the Revenue,
if you do it for three months t You give him the Revenue, and the hearts of the People. This you will do
in two days, and perhaps the other way not in two months.
Mr Pollexfen.] If you say, "I will not give the King
this Revenue, but those that pay it not shall be under
all the penalties as if it was given," this will raise all
the jealousy and shame upon us imaginable abroad.
Sir Henry Capel.] 'Tis not the intention of any man
here to give the King the Revenue for three months,
and Pollexfen mistakes the thing. We are beholden to
those Gentlemen who put us in this method at first.
The Book of Rates, the Act for Excise, we do not yet
know; there are complaints of the ill administration of
them; now is the time to correct it. I speak it to
the Honour of the Gentleman that made the Motion,
that you will have no delay in the thing. Then you
will see the whole establishment and the expences, and
what to give for an established Revenue. 'Tis not a
time to name the Revenue now; 'tis the doubt of some
Persons whether the Revenue is, or is not sunk; but
continue the Revenue entire for three months, for support of the Crown, and all will agree to it.
Sir John Holt.] For time to consider the Revenue, I
do not oppose it, but as to the hereditary part of the
Revenue, if that be determined, there will be no need
of such an Act. Some are of opinion that it is determined, but I have not heard one Reason for it. If the
King accepts this, the Question is determined; and it is
in being; the Revenue was given to the Crown of
England, and annexed to the Office of King William and
Queen Mary; it continues, and stands in no need of
a temporary Act of Parliament.
Mr Wogan.] It would be strange if the Revenue granted
the Crown, upon a valuable consideration, instead of the
Court of Wards, should determine with the late King
James. Was it granted on any other consideration?
Sir Thomas Lee.] I am indifferent whether you put
it on the hereditary, or temporary Revenue. If you
had gone according to the Opinion of the learned Gentlemen, you had made no Act, but let them go on to
collect the Revenue. The hereditary Revenue is so
little, that, I believe, the House will supply it; the
reason why it is asserted is, that part must go with the
Crown of England. But when the King must alien this
to the Bankers, this must make such men as me scruple
Sir Wm Williams.] 'Tis not the opinion of five or six
men of the Robe that will guide, but what the Law is.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a
Bill be brought in to collect the Revenue till the 24th of June
1689, with a Clause of Indemnity to all who have collected it
since November 5, 1688, and before the 13th of February next
ensuing. [Agreed to by the House.]
On the King's Speech.
Mr Godolphin.] The King's Speech is of weight,
not only for the substance but order of it. I think,
the Propositions are to consider the Revenue. Till
you have provided for Holland, you cannot be sure
whether you have a Revenue at all. Should you not take
care to preserve them that have done so much for you,
they may put themselves into hands that may pay
Mr Harbord.] I think that Gentleman in the right.
I would leave it at large. I would take the consideration of the King's Speech in general, and not confine it
to the Revenue.
[March 12 and 13, Omitted.]
Thursday, March 14.
In a Grand Committee on the King's Speech. Mr Hampden
in the Chair.
Mr Hampden, jun.] You have made a Vote to
stand by the King with your lives and fortunes, in defence of the Laws of the Protestant Religion, and the
King has given you a gracious Answer to your Address,
and in a great measure has opened the present affairs of
the Nation and his Allies. The condition they are in,
and their deliverance, is in great measure owing to the
Dutch Army under his Conduct, and they have brought
a great charge upon themselves. The French King
threatens Holland, and they must have a great Army to stop
this torrent. In North Holland there are more Papists than
Protestants, and in other places, they have nothing to depend upon but your Generosity. Ireland must be thought
of; besides what the King informs you of, you have it
from other Gentlemen that 20,000 Horse and Foot are
the least you can send to reduce it; which will require a
great sum of Money; but the King promises you it
shall be laid out for the use of the Nation. It is a difficult matter what to propose; but I humbly offer what
has been done on the like occasion in neighbouring
Countries to yours. The Dutch had formerly War with
Spain, and lately with the French King. They did, at
the beginning of the year, make their State of War, and
computed the Expences for carrying it on. By this,
they took their measures from the King of France, who
can raise what Money he pleases. He makes the State
of War himself, charges the Provinces, and they levy
it to his satisfaction. I move that we may address the
King, that we may have a Scheme or short State of the
War drawn, of the expence we must be at. As for
the payment of his debt to the Dutch, that is in pretty
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] 'Tis absolutely necessary to
support the Government, and the Revenue is necessary
to be settled for the support of the Government. The
methods proposed to you last time the Committee sat
may be considered. We lie under the greatest obligation imaginable to the King, who has delivered us, and
eased us from a Tax so burdensome to the People.
You are not yet ready, I conceive, for Hampden's Motion,
but for the ordinary Expences, 'tis absolutely necessary
to support the Government.
Sir Richard Temple.] You are upon a method to proceed upon the King's Speech; all that has been moved
has been contributary to it. I would have all you are
to do before you, and then you will know what to apply to the Civil Government, and the other Matters; as
the Expence of the Dutch; and next, to assist the Dutch
according to the Alliance, and the charge of it by
computation given in; then, the farther charge of the
Navy, besides what you are to assist the Dutch with;
and then, the computation of the Affairs of Ireland.
The King tells us, for Ireland it will require 20,000
men; what Horse, what Foot, &c. with the charge
Sir Thomas Lee.] Consider first the charge of this
present year, and then know what will make up these
extraordinary charges. For the Fleet, and other charges,
we are not tied up to a computation brought in to us,
but what we shall judge of it.
Sir William Williams.] I never knew the House get
any thing by looking into Bills of Parcels. I am as
willing as any man to give Aid as far as the Kingdom
can bear it. I would consider what we are able to do,
and you shall see I am in earnest to come roundly to
it. First, make a retribution to the States of Holland,
and leave the King to dispose of it as he thinks good.
'Tis their Men, and Money, that have done our Work.
I move for a sum not exceeding 500,000l. for that purpose.
Mr Papillon.] Our condition is not so secure as it
is thought. There is a great enemy that has an intention to destroy both the Dutch and us. Here is yet no
Settlement of the Revenue, and they will be hard put
to it. I see not so hearty a union abroad, as I could
wish, though I am glad to see it in this House; but I
fear there is an intention to undermine us. Here is yet
no Settlement of the Revenue, the Oaths, nor the Courts
of Justice. We know the computation of the charge
pretty near, and I believe the whole about 6 or
700,000l. If you voluntarily give the Dutch such a
Sum, without casting it up to a penny or two pence. But
it is to me of great consequence, that as we address the
King on other Occasions, we may do it on this, that
if we do support Alliances, we may be fixed in
them. You cannot avoid War with France, and you
must support Alliances, and let the King know so
much. As for the charge of Ireland, it is easily known,
20,000 men being the number given in; if we go to
particulars, we shall never have an end. And as for the
Customs, though some of them have been irregular, yet
gather them as they have been these twenty eight years.
Therefore I would address the King for an Alliance
with the Dutch, which will save us, and we will supply him to support them.
Mr Harbord.] The King, in his great Prudence, caused
the Dutch Ambassador to make an Account in general;
accordingly the Secretary of the Admiralty made a
computation of the charge. I have it in my hand.
The King likewise commanded the charge of Ireland
to be computed, besides our defence at home; but
that will not be perfect till to-morrow.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I would have something we understand. The Account is in Guilders; we know not
the value of them. I would have them computed to
the value of our Money. The Debate runs upon Aid
and Supply. Is it not fit to state the Revenue, what
it is for the maintenance of the Government? 'Tis not
reasonable we should bear all the charge. Taken down
to Order by
Mr Harbord.] 'Tis said, "'tis not reasonable England
should bear all the charge"—The Prince took the ancient Troops of the States, and agreed with the German
Princes to supply them; they had the Money, and the
Prince has bought them for ever; and 'tis not reasonable
that England should pay all that charge for six months
expedition only. I told the King, it was impossible to
supply all at once. "Therefore (says the King) I desire 200,000l. down, and the rest of the payments betwixt this and next Spring;" but there will not be so
much for Ireland as for Holland. If the King of France, by
fair or foul means, makes Peace with Holland, you may
throw your Caps at Ireland—If the French King spreads
his Money among the Dutch, and says, "I have seized
your ships, but will let them go, and will make Peace
with you and the Emperor," what impression will this
make among the Populace! Says the King, "Let the
World see you take Holland into your Arms, their spirits will rise, and be able to defend themselves:" Say
they, "Give us but this credit, if your fleet is not
ready, our's shall be." But as for the Revenue, it cannot be computed; the Customs, by reason of the French
goods, &c. fall to nothing.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I am ready to give the States of
Holland all the returns of thanks for their great Assistance in our extremity, and would have a union of Coalition to support them, and ourselves; but I would
consider what condition we are in. Says Harbord, "they
are ready to go into a War with France, and what becomes of your Revenue then?" But consider, if the
Excise be certain, if the Customs do fall, we may aid
the King from time to time for that defect. At the
present, here is 500,000l. besides 1,200,000l. per
ann.—We have already given 400,000l. and was it
not upon part of the obligation to Holland? I do say,
besides all the uncertainty, there is 500,000l. to supply all necessities. Take out the ordinary Revenue,
and you have latitude upon the rest for taking Money up
upon security. The Treasure of the Nation is in your
hands. I suppose you will dispose wisely of what is
above the ordinary Expence of the Government.
Mr Papillon.] Eleven Guilders is 10s. sterling, which,
by ordinary Computation, will come to 663,752l. sterling, for the Dutch charges.
Mr Howe.] There were reflections abroad on our Proceedings yesterday—I would not believe ourselves like
bullies, to eat and drink at a tavern, then quarrel
with one another, go away, and leave the reckoning
unpaid; and I fear we shall leave the Dutch so. As
the Gentleman said to his Creditors, "he will tell them
to-morrow when they shall come again." We are told
of the French King and King James making preparations for Ireland; but he comes not thither as King
James, but as the French King's Minister. He has the
French King's Intendant des Finances, and the French
King has made Regents over him, as some would have
made him here. If you would have the Papists
turn our Churches into Chapels, and make bonfires
of the Protestants, then put this Debate off till to-morrow. Therefore I move that Mr Hampden may leave
the Chair, and that the House be moved for a Supply, &c. and give the People credit, that the delay may
be no longer laid upon us; and name a sum of Money
for the States of Holland, &c.
Mr Harbord.] You have had a good Motion made. I
would not have Mr Hampden leave the Chair till you
resolve to move the House for a Supply for the Dutch,
according to the Computation given in.
Mr Hampden] The Committee never makes a Motion for a sum: That is made in the House.
Mr Godolphin.] The Gentleman over the way was
upon a topic to induce the House to give Money, &c.
which was from the French King's tampering in Holland, &c. I was in Holland when this House was zealous
for an actual War with France, and then a Peace was
privately treated with France; which we ought to prevent now. If we cannot reduce Ireland, unless we secure Holland, that must be your first step. I move therefore, that the King be addressed to make a stricter Alliance with the States, and invite the Emperor into it,
for common security against France.
Mr Pollexfen.] Though we pay more for this Expedition than it has cost the Dutch, let us not enter into
particulars; it will more heartily show our affection
without examining them. The interest of the King
puts us upon embracing the Dutch; if we show coldness, or delay, to aid and assist them, what will the World
say? That we do not make returns for what they have
done for us. I know no King, but the French King, that
can hurt us, and considering what our Ancestors have
done, have we not by the prevalency of that King destroyed our Neighbours? Let the World see we are returned to our senses, and that we are truly English.
The Speaker took the Chair.
Mr Boscawen.] The nature of the Question is, "To
give the King a Supply, to enable him to re-imburse
the Dutch, &c." If the Gentleman means to prove the
charge, Harbord told you the King had examined it;
and I believe if you will examine it farther, you will get
nothing by that.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I confess, I know not how to speak
in this. It seems, by some Gentlemen, if we come not
to a sudden Resolution in this, we are undone; but
possibly this Nation and Holland will not be lost for
one night's consideration. I have seen Money granted
here suddenly, but by them that have had shares in it
afterwards. If the importance of this be such that we
must break Order, as formerly in the Long Parliament.—
Mr Howe.] When I heard Lee move, I looked to see
what o'clock it was. I would leave dinners for once,
and go on.
Sir William Williams.] I can fast as well as Howe,
but I cannot pray so well.
Mr Howe.] If Williams had gone on in the way he
was once in, we should have had all fasting and no
Sir William Williams.] Howe has forgot that the
Bishops were acquitted, and who had a hand in doing it.
Mr Howe.] I protest, I do not accuse Williams for
[The Debate was adjourned.]
Friday, March 15.
Mr Harbord.] Lord Dumbarton's Regiment, which is
now Marshal Schomberg's, with the Grenadiers and some
Officers, have deserted, and chosen two Captains. They
have seized the Artillery at Ipswich, and have made
Proclamation for King James. The Regiment of Fusileers is at Harwich; they say, they will declare with
them. They are 1500 men, with the Train of Artillery (fn. 1) , and how many will join them I do not
Sir Jonathan Jennings.] In order to what has been
reported, certainly I believe there is more than ordinary in these things. I have received a Letter from
the Mayor of Rippon, of some Papists, to the same effect; that the Papists are very high, ride in numbers,
and have cabals. Therefore I think it fit that you
secure your sitting here, and that the Government
may be preserved.
Mr Harbord.] I hear, by Letters from Norwich, "that
a Papist was seen by several to go into a House, and immediately the House was on fire, and he got to a place
to have the prospect of it." The person is examined
Mr Howe.] When we look before us, and see these
things, there is a fault somewhere. I would know how
these Officers remain in command; and would address
the King that some of the Dutch Troops may be sent
after them. I say "Dutch Troops." I know not
which else to trust.
Sir Richard Temple.] You see the present condition
you are in. I would revive the Committee for banishing the Papists out of town. I know not what to
advise you, unless an Address to the King to take some
speedy course with the Papists; and I would have a
Bill, "That, if any person shall write, speak, or declare for King James, he be speedily brought to tryal."
Col. Birch.] This is no jesting business; this is the
countenance of more men than those six hundred that
were quartered at Brentford, and went away with their
arms; and I believed they would come to the rest—
This is not done without conduct, and you will have
an Army in a few days. I would address the King,
"That some foot and horse of the King's own, and
what may be trusted, may join together," and I hope,
without a Bill, to dispatch these Men.
Mr Hampden.] For the nature of the thing, I shall
state the case; you need not be long resolving. I believe
this an actual levying War by 25 Edward III. You cannot have counsel here that will be difficult. Do you
but resolve this to be Treason, and if King William and
Queen Mary be King and Queen, this is Treason; and
correspondence, upon levying War, is Treason, I believe.
I would apply to the King to take some course in
this, and that you will assist him.
Sir William Williams.] No doubt this is an actual levying
War. Since you have acknowledged King William and
Queen Mary to be King and Queen, whoever does
adhere to the King's enemies, in or out of the Kingdom,
'tis Treason; so you need not make a Law for it ex
post facto, but 'tis provided by your old Law to be
Treason; for they are King and Queen de facto; and
that Law is a safe foundation for you to go upon; and
come to a speedy resolution of this House, that they
have committed Treason, and so bring them to a speedy
judgment, and thus the People will go along with
Sir George Treby.] In this, I observe one thing, that
it is good we have a King, for if we had had no King,
nor Parliament sitting, since they are so insolent in
the face of the King and Parliament, what would they
have done if the Nation had wanted one of them? In
this Crisis, if we cannot defend ourselves by Law and
Sword, 'tis time for us to dig our Graves, and lie down
in them. Can any man doubt that this is Treason?
Your declaring it to be Treason will weaken it, as if
it were a doubt. I confess, I am not capable of advising
you what to do, and (with great respect) I think this
House not proper for military means advice. We must
go to War and open force, and we must oppose force
with force, and maintain in the Field what we have
done in our Council and Senate. Therefore I move
that the Lord Lieutenancies and Deputies may be in
such hands as the Kingdom may be, and we sit in
safety. I think all the powers of our profession useless in such a case.
Sir Robert Clayton.] The wonder of all this is, that
we have not heard one word of the Trumpeters of these
Disorders. They cannot forbear reflections upon Persons
the Nation has an Honour for. At Newcastle, some
Priests labour, all they can, to promote this Work. I
would have something done to stop these people's
Col. Mildmay.] 'Tis generally believed, that these
you are informed of are not barely alone, but that 'tis
universal; and, as for those Trumpeters, who have forborne praying for King William and Queen Mary, and
go not to church to hear it prayed, the Question is,
which is the best way to prevent this? 'Tis said,
"What is done in so great an Assembly will not be
long a secret." I think this proper in the King's
Council to whom you have given the Government.
The Militia of England is a great body, 150,000 men,
that serve you gratis; they bear their own charges, and
you are safe in them. This being delayed (with some
other things which have been too long) I cannot wonder now at the circumstances we are under: I rather
wonder that we are so well, than so ill. I would recommend it to the King to settle the Militia, and especially that of London. As for the Money, I doubt not
that you will lose any time. In the mean time, I would
have Letters to the Sheriffs to stop them in their
Sir Henry Capel.] I think you are ripe for a Question.
It is plain by what I have heard from the Robe that
this is Treason. Corresponding with the late King is
Treason. I hope in time, that care will be taken that
this impudence of preaching may be taken care of,
and it will be mended. I would apply to the King
for a Proclamation against these men.
Major Wildman.] I have heard sad news, and many
things have been well proposed; but the suppressing
these men it is proper to leave to the King: But we
ought to represent it to the King; and now we see so
great a boil broke out, how many are like to break
out. 'Tis our Duty to inform the King what we hear
from all parts. I must inform the House that I have
letters every day of the ill condition of the Soldiers in
their Quarters; at Newbury, Abingdon, and other places,
they would not suffer the cryer, or bell-man, to say,
"God bless King William and Queen Mary!" There are
Papers cast about, to fright people with the change of
the Government, with millions; hundreds of these are
dispersed; I have received some. The disease is so general, I know not what to propose; but 'tis proper for this
House to give the King the best Informations we can of
the Officers who connive at these things. I offer to
the House to address the King to take a special care of
the places where the late King's Soldiers are quartered,
and especially to have an eye that the Officers prevent
disorders, and to be fully assured of his Officers, both
Civil and Military.
Mr Hampden.] I offer it, notwithstanding the opinion
of the learned Gentlemen, as I am not of opinion, "that
it is a vain thing to declare this Desertion of the Soldiers to be Treason." This at the first was taken only
for Soldiers mutinying, but what is there in declaring
this to be within the 25th of Edward III? Soldiers deserting and corresponding with the King's Enemies to
be Treason? You must speak out and say, this is High
Treason, and this will put an end to it, and men will
be afraid to countenance it; and go to the Lords, that,
by your joint advice, the King may issue out his Proclamation to inforce the Law, as your advice, as the only
proper remedy, and that you will give the King your
assistance in it.
Sir John Lowther.] At the same time when you advise the Proclamation, consider the occasion, and then
the proper remedies, that the cause may be taken away. In former reigns, criminals were so much the
more enemies by how much they were in desperation,
and therefore I would put men out of doubt, and make
as many friends as we can. Therefore I move, that
whether, as you made a strict enquiry into Grievances,
there may not as well be an Act of Oblivion at the
same time, and, at the same time, that you address the
King to proclaim his pardon to such as shall surrender
themselves, and return to their obedience and duty.
Sir Robert Howard.] The Lords and Commons addressing the King makes the Proclamation have greater
force, and next to an Act of Parliament; but as for the
Oblivion just moved to be put in, it looks as if you were
afraid, and is a kind of seconding these men in their
Rebellion, and all this will look little less than an Act
An Address was voted, &c.
[Resolved, in a Grand Committee, That 600,000l. be given
to his Majesty to enable him to defray the Charges laid out by
the Dutch, in the Expedition for England.]
Saturday, March 16.
Serjeant Maynard.] We are so mealy-mouthed and
soft-handed to the Papists, that it occasions their insolence. I think it is fitting that all Papists should refort
to their own dwellings, and not depart without Licences from the next Justices; and another thing, that
all those of that Religion bring all their fire-arms in,
unless for the necessary defence of their Houses, to
officers appointed. 'Tis not our Votes, nor the Ordinances of Lords and Commons, nor our being hot here,
that will do it. I would not imitate their Cruelty: I
am far from it. I would let them have their Religion
in their private Houses, but no harbouring Priests and
Jesuits. You'll pardon my boldness, but I hope I have
done my duty.
Col. Birch.] I think Maynard's is an excellent Motion,
and in good time. If we make a new Bill, perhaps it
will not do so well, but, upon this Motion of Maynard's, I would refer it to the same Committee for the
Lords Bill, and farther, that the Informer may have
half the Arms for his discovery.
Mr Wogan.] If you find not a way to convict them,
you cannot disarm them. I would have a Clause for
it in the Bill.
Serjeant Maynard.] If any Papist should have a hand
in firing Houses, he should be compelled to help to
rebuild them. For the present, if they do not deliver
their Arms upon the King's Proclamation, they shall
be subject to such penalties as the Law shall direct;
in the mean time, that they be admonished.
The Speaker.] I would not have this without effect, which, I apprehend, it will be unless they are
convicted, and being not convicted they will say they
are not concerned, not being convicted, and not one
man will go out of Town, nor deliver their Arms.
Unless actually convicted, you cannot know a Papist,
and you will have no effect of this Proclamation.
Serjeant Maynard.] What you say is true, but they
know themselves to be Papists, and upon the Proclamation you may lay your hands upon them severely.
Mr Hampden.] The insolence of the Papists is grown
great, I hear out of the Country. Do not give them
encouragement by a brutum fulmen. I will not contradict Maynard in point of Law; I know not who are
Papists. He must be a legal Papist, else he is not
within the Proclamation. Proclamations are to inforce, not to make, Laws. He will keep his House
according to Law, and not go out of Town. What
Law have you to compell him to deliver his Horses?
There you make a Law clearly. I would not have
Gentlemen think that I believe it not just; but will you
advise the King to cause the Papists to deliver up all
forts of Horses, that are fit for warlike service, either
for baggage, or dragoons? We shall terrify people by
this Proclamation, the Parliament now sitting; and we
are told we must make an Act to do it. I confess this
is new; I never heard it in a Proclamation before. If
you advise the King this, he will say, "see you advise me according to Law;" he will order his Counsel
learned to draw it up; but they will say, 'tis not according to Law. 'Tis a hard point; if these objections are
not of weight, I am mistaken. But you may have a
Law to offer the Papists the Tests, and you may have
it presently executed by Justices of the Peace, when
they are named. Something must be done, and speedily done, but put not yourselves upon difficulties, nor
the King, but if you will have a short Law for convicting them, I am for it.
Mr Howe.] If these Gentlemen, the Papists, want
Paper to stop their Guns, they may do it with Proclamations. I would have the King take up such persons
as he may have just cause to suspect.
Col. Birch.] I would not have this Morning's Debate
lost, but have some fruits of it. I humbly desire that
a Committee may sit, and, upon Debate of the House,
a Bill may be brought in to convict them.
Sir Richard Temple.] I doubt that Bill will not do
your business that is calculated for London; you will so
alter the frame of that Bill, that it would be better to
have it in another Bill.
[Resolved, That a Bill be brought in for the more speedy
convicting and disarming of Papists.]
(fn. 2) delivered a Petition of Discovery, relating
to the Hardships her Husband was under in the Tower, and
the undue Practices in stifling the Evidence he could give of
the Popish Plot.
Col. Birch.] I was afraid this woman would
cozen me when she delivered me this Petition to present you. I durst not trust myself with her alone;
therefore I got two or three to be with me. I move
you, that two or three days hence the persons she mentions may come hither for discovery.
Sir Robert Sawyer.] Upon examination, I find nothing
but clamour in this business. There was an Order of
Council to prepare an Indictment of High Treason against Fitzharris, before the Parliament met at Oxford.
'Tis true, in the Oxford Parliament, a general Impeachment of High Treason was brought up by the Commons to the Lords against him. The Lords upon Debate resolved, "That he should be proceeded against
in the common course of Law." After that Parliament was dissolved, I was ordered to proceed against
him, according to the Directions of the Lords in Parliament; he was not at all charged in particular in
Parliament, thereupon an Indictment was brought according to Law. When the King's Prisoner is brought
by Habeas Corpus, if he be not tried the second time,
he is discharged. 'Twas impossible he should be tried
upon that Impeachment, for it was general, and otherwise he could not have been tried in the King's Bench.
Sir Robert Howard.] I remember that I was engaged
in that business at Oxford. I was informed that several
great Persons were concerned; I did move examining
too far, as was then thought. You passed some Votes
upon it. Certainly that business did carry the greatest
discovery against the Protestants that ever was. I move
that you will appoint a day for this, &c.
Mr Garroway.] I remember there was then great
fear upon us, of trepanning Members, who were to
have had papers put in their pockets, of a treasonable
nature to destroy us; upon our enquiry into this we
were dissolved. We sent up Sir Lionel Jenkins to impeach Fitzharris, but no particulars were sent up; but
Sir William Jones and Sir Francis Winnington drew up a
Question then, "That if any one proceeded to try Fitzharris, or any one impeached in Parliament, they were enemies to the Government." I suppose, in examining this
matter, you may find something of use to you to help
your proceedings against the Papists.
[Mrs Fitzharris, and her Witnesses, were ordered to be heard
The Bill for reversing Lord Russel's Attainder [passed, with
[March 18 and 19 Omitted.]