Monday, March 3.
Mr Powle reports, from the Committee, the following Address,
for preventing the Growth of Popery, to be presented to his
"We your Majesty's most loyal subjects, the Commons in
this present Parliament assembled, being very sensible of the great
dangers and mischiefs that may arise within this your Majesty's
realm by the increase of Popish Recusants amongst us, and considering the great resort of Priests and Jesuits into this kingdom,
who daily endeavour to seduce your Majesty's subjects from their
Religion and Allegiance, and how much your loyal subjects are
disheartened to see such Popish Recusants advanced into employments of great trust and profit, and especially into military commands over the forces, now in your Majesty's service; and having a tender regard to the preservation of your Majesty's person,
and the peace and tranquillity of this kingdom, do, in all humility, desire, that your Majesty would be pleased to issue out your
Royal Proclamation, to command all Priests and Jesuits, (other
than such as, not being natural born subjects to your Majesty, are
obliged to attend upon your Royal Consort the Queen) to depart
within this days, out of this your Majesty's kingdom, and that
if any Priest or Jesuit shall happen to be taken in England, after
the expiration of the said time, that the laws be put in due execution against them; and that your Majesty would please, in the
said Proclamation, to command all Judges, Justices of the Peace,
Mayors, Bailiffs, and other Officers, to put the said laws in
execution accordingly: That your Majesty would likewise be
pleased, that the Lord Chancellor of England shall, on or before
the 25th day of March instant, issue out commissions of Dedimus
potestatem, to the Judge Advocate, and Commissaries of the
musters, and such other persons as he shall think fit, (not being
officers commanding soldiers) to tender the Oaths of Allegiance
and Supremacy, to all (fn. 1) officers and soldiers now in your Majesty's service and pay; and that such as refuse the said Oaths
may be immediately disbanded, and not allowed or continued
in any pay (fn. 2)
or pension, and that the Chancellon shall require
due returns to be made thereof, within some convenient time
after the issuing out of the said commissions: That the Commissaries of the musters be commanded and enjoined by your
Majesty's warrant, upon the penalty of losing their places, not to
permit any officer to be mustered, in the service and pay of his
Majesty, untill he shall have taken the Oaths of Allegiance and
Supremacy, and received the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper,
according to the laws and usage of the Church of England;
and that every soldier serving at land, shall take the said Oaths
before his first muster, and receive the Sacrament in such manner
before his second muster. And this we present, in all dutifulness,
to your Majesty's princely wisdom and consideration, as the best
means for the satisfying and composing the minds of your loyal
subjects; humbly desiring your Majesty graciously to accept of
this our Petition, as proceeding from hearts and affections entirely devoted to your Majesty's service, and to give it your Royal
Colonel Sandys.] The King has called several of these
officers, whom you will make incapable by your Bill, from
beyond sea; they lost their fortunes there for their allegiance in returning hither, upon the King's command to
Sir Robert Howard.] He believes that Sir John Herman
will not receive the Sacrament—Would not have so considerable a man discouraged—We have few such.
Sir William Lowther.] Harman is a good Churchman
—He sits by him every Sunday.
Sir William Coventry.] When he had the honour of
employment under the Duke of York, he gave Harman
Sir John Bennet.] What will you do when men are
pressed, and they refuse the Oaths and the Sacrament?
Will you dismiss them?
Sir William Coventry.] Thinks that the Oaths and the
Sacrament are not practicable for the seamen; not that your
men are afraid of their flesh, but they will refuse them,
Colliers and Merchants pay being better.
Mr Attorney Finch.] A Catholic that makes no conscience of your Oaths will make none of your Sacrament.
The Oaths are the most cogent testimony. If you mean
to impose the Sacrament, you will cut off so many hands
from your service.
Sir John Duncombe.] Does not like to expose holy
things in this manner; your ships are to be supplied by
landmen; though they have taken it at land, they will
refuse it at sea, to avoid the service. Many are not prepared, and will you force him to swallow it down to
damn himself? If the Oath of Allegiance will not do,
think of something else rather.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Soldiers are not surprized, as is
said—In the rule of musters near forty days before they
can be removed; then no great surprize in the case—Remembers in 1638, a great army then, three times enough
to beat the Scots; but the late King durst not trust the
common soldiers, their jealousies were such of their Popish
Sir Robert Howard.] They will go to the Sacrament, as
to eat and drink. Now when a Test comes, it will wound
your Protestant subjects—Impossible to fill your land
companies without Fanatics—Leave out the Test for
your own safety—They are convertible terms, and convertible interests.
Mr Vaughan.] In all Statutes that have been made, in
King James's time, after the Powder Plot, the Sacrament
is made part of the Test—The kingdom, in one thing,
is very unfortunate, that the other day we could have
none but Popish officers, and to day none but Fanatic
soldiers—We are, in the mean time, like to be safe,
especially in alliance and conjunction with the French
King's fleet, who are Papists—Would not have them by
sea, any more than by land; would have as good security by sea, as by land; would have neither Popish
soldiers nor officers.
Colonel Titus.] The Sacrament is an unuseful Test—They that hold your Church, no Church, hold your
Sacrament, no Sacrament—The Sacrament is not a thing
to be ordered to take, and no matter whether they understand it or no.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] If you make Papists incapable of dangerous places, you will increase them—If
Papists may be Merchants, and not Soldiers, they will
increase more—It is not prudent to make your plaister
wider than your sore.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If Laws were put in execution,
Papists would not be so great as they are—It is said, "What
power will catch them, because of Dispensations, and
(our being) discouraged to give them any Test?" as in many
passages in the mystery of Jesuitism—Let us do like good
and religious men; and if they can abide any Test, all
mankind will laugh at them, and they themselves and
their Religion will grow ridiculous upon it.
Colonel Birch.] Wonders at so great a change betwixt
now and a few years ago—As for damning, the same
Church says, they must prepare themselves—If they
serve at sea, they have two months time.
Sir Thomas Meres.] An English Priest, an apostate
from your religion, is not granted in the articles of marriage [between the King and the Infanta Qu. Catherine]—Dr
Gauden was an English Priest—Names him to be rid of him.
Lord Cornbury.] The man is the Queen's Priest, and
has been so ever since the Queen came into England.
Colonel Strangways.] No Ambassador can bring an
English Catholic Priest into England; it is against the Law
of nations. If he brings in a Priest, that Priest is a
raytor by Law. Having the English tongue, they have
more opportunities than ordinary.
Mr Vaughan.] Articles of marriage cannot be against
Law. It is præmunire to harbour them.
Mr Garroway.] Would not have the man named in
this Address: It will make delay—The Address must be
re-committed, if you name him—Would have the man
left out—If they be not gone already, by this Address
you may be rid of them all.
[The Address being agreed to; Resolved, That the Lords
concurrence be desired.]
Tuesday, March 4.
In a Grand Committee on the Supply. Debate on prolonging
the day appointed for it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Here is a fear of the King,
a fear of the Lords, and a fear of ourselves. We are
in a most miserable condition. This may have great influence abroad.
Mr Vaughan.] We have been as yet but Petitioners,
and have had no effectual answer to our Message—The
Bill of Supply may have quick dispatch enough—The
people expect an account from us of this great affair of
religion, and we cannot answer the delay of it to them.
Mr Garroway.] Every body is for carrying on this Bill,
and yet it cannot find the way to go—Be pleased to remember how quickly the money was given—You are
desired to stay but a little while for an answer from the
King; that we may not have an ill construction
abroad, and have the thing pass quietly; and you gain
nothing by pressing it.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The people would have so hard
thoughts of us, as may prove prejudicial to the government. If we make such haste, and if we had found
things as we left them last Session, this Money-Bill
might have passed sooner.
Sir Robert Howard.] Does believe that those accommodations of things we desire, will come in good time—We
shall either have satisfaction, or not; and every man
knows the condition of things; war, delay, and other
things—Doubts not but every man thinks it sinking or
swimming, and if not supplied in time, the nation
must be put upon strange leagues and new intentions.
But let it have the course that may come easily, and put
it for Saturday.
Colonel Birch.] If we intend that all must go together, it
is visible we cannot have an answer before Saturday—We
have a quick way to dispatch the money, and we know
it—Would have things go upon equal terms.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] Thinks that giving of money
would be a stop to the growth of Popery—A necessary
ingredient, to defend yourselves from it, is by a fleet—If the fleet fall short, it will be at our doors.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Sees no answer to our fears of Popery and Property opposed to the Dutch fleet—Would
fain know where that Amsterdam money is, so talked of—We only humbly petition that the Law may have its
course. It is a very easy Petition—He has no jealousy
either of the King or of the Lords, but is jealous of
himself—No man knows his own heart—We are not always present to ourselves, nor present here—At last, it is
but passing it, after reporting it, and there is an end of
your business—We must not lose kindness in other
[To proceed on Saturday.]
Wednesday, March 5.
The Bill to prevent the Growth of Popery was read the first
Mr Attorney Finch.] No consideration is had in this, of
offices for lives or inheritances, which are not to be forfeited by the heir, unless he be convicted—In Annuities
or Pensions not reasonable—This was the first severity in
Parliament to take away Pensions, whereby people must
eat—This command to the Attorney General not to enter a noli prosequi will put a man to the charge of a
noble in a non pros. to that of twenty pounds for a pardon
from the King—Hopes you will make a temperament to
these things at the commitment.
Mr Milward.] Can name some Catholics that have
Pensions for life: The three Pendrils, brothers, who
were so happily instrumental in preserving the King after
Sir Courtney Poole.] Would have all persons exempted,
named in the Bill.
Lord Cornbury.] Speaks for some of the Queen's servants.
Mr. Secretary Coventry.] "Pensions" are unnatural
things to put into the Bill; forbid all Pensions, and you had
as good knock people on the head; as good starve them.
You make the King less capable than any other man to
be charitable. He that saved Dublin castle was a Papist
—A Turk, or a Moor, that does service, you would reward.
These Pensions are not under the Great Seal; but to say
those who have saved the King's life shall not be rewarded, is most unreasonable — The Lord Chamberlain above-stairs has given all the oaths to the servants; he is
a person no way suspected.
Mr Vaughan.] The end of your Bill is to take offices
of trust, which will imply power: The giving of Pensions from the Crown is out of its revenue; you give
the money, and the Crown cannot support it—Would
have the Pensions of mere charity, no way relative to
Sir Robert Carr.] For want of a Member to speak for
a Pensioner here, by name, to lose his Pension is unreasonable.
Mr Powle.] It takes not away the power of persons
from executing their offices of inheritance by Deputy—Would always have a perpetual mark of honour upon
persons truly deserving, and would have them named in
the Bill for their honour. It was not the intention, in the
former Session, that persons then cashiered for Papists,
should have Pensions. Statute of Henry VIII. mentions
persons not worthy of Pensions who own not the government—Many deserving persons, Protestants, are ready to
starve. It is reasonable that the Queen's Portugal servants
should be considered. (This consideration was likewise
committed to be considered.)
Col. Sandys.] Moves that every man may name his
friend—Thinks the number will not be considerable.
Sir Robert Howard.] Hopes you will not think the
King no proper judge of a little reward; your business
here is trust and security of the nation—Hopes the Bill
will come easy to the King, to pass the better, with no
unnecessary strictness in it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The word "Pension" is not in
the Bill—Thinks these are mistakes made to throw dirt
on the Bill. With all submission to those that drew the
Bill, says, the House always improves and mends it—Thinks there are but few that will pass muster here—People now turn for preferment.
The Speaker.] If you will give Meres privilege
to be disorderly, he has done—He must leave reflections.
Sir Thomas Meres, goes on and says.] It is dirt thrown
upon the Bill when words are said to be in the Bill that
are not ("Pensions.")
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Intends to throw no dirt on
the Bill, nor would have dirt thrown upon him—"Salary" and "Pension" are both payments, and the same
thing. Will you have no debts paid to Catholics?—Thinks "Payment" is more than "Pension"—Would
have the order kept, that Gentlemen may speak without
reprimand or reflection.
Mr Garroway.] Thinks that strange, for soldiers
"Pay" is no "Pension;" it is their due, and that is a
"Payment"—Would not trifle away time upon such
Sir Gilbert Talbot.] Dirt is thrown somewhere else than
on the Bill. It is said, "a great many did turn upon
design of preferment"—Abruptly—went not on.
[The Bill was ordered to be read a second time.]
Thursday, March 6.
[A present Conference having been desired by the Lords, and
agreed to by the House, on the matter of the Address sent from
this House on the 4th instant, to prevent the growth of Popery,]
Mr Attorney General reports the Conference.
[Debate on the Lords amendments. On that of inserting "land"
Mr Garroway.] If it be thought more safe to have
them at sea than at land, does not else see what the word
"at sea" means. If they will only abjure the doctrine of
Transubstantiation, let it be the test at sea and land.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] If they may command our ships,
they may command us also—Would have that Test spoken
of, of the Sacrament, waved, and have only the doctrine
of Transubstantiation the Test.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Would not lose the fruits of so
hopeful an Address with amendments—Little suspicion
of Catholic officers, but great danger of losing good officers not Catholics—Believes that this amendment of your
Address offered by the Lords is with no intention to favour the Catholics at sea, therefore would not insist upon
it, but agree.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] There are but two Captains Roman Catholics in the whole fleet, and they young Gentlemen and no notice taken of them. When you say "officers,"
would distinguish—Masters, Boatswains, and Gunners, are
of great use, and the humour of being fanatic most upon
them; therefore would distinguish and confine it only to
Captains, only to such as command the ship and become
Mr Vaughan.] You join with a Catholic Prince, and,
without the Oath, you may betray the whole kingdom.
Mr Hopkins.] Transubstantiation is a Test that no Papist
will endure, but any Protestant will; therefore would
have that the Test.
Mr Cheney.] Would have you particularly name such
persons as you would except in this Address.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Hopes that you will not put a
brand upon people—Would have no mention of the Sacrament in this Address—Would leave that out.
Mr Powle.] Fears that all the remedy we shall have
by this amendment is, that "land soldiers" may be
"sea captains"—Would have that trust at sea left in
doubtful and suspicious terms.
Mr Attorney Finch.] In the universality of the extent,
it will comprehend the sea-soldier in point of the Sacrament for a Test; the Lords, he is of opinion, would have
left out the Sacrament, but that the reverend Prelates
could not stand by and agree—You had better rely upon
your Bill, than press the Sacrament in this Address.
— [The amendment was rejected.]
[On the amendment of leaving out the word "Pension."]
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Wonders how this word
"Pension" was dark in the Bill, and clear in the Address.
Colonel Birch.] By "Pension" they have money for
doing nothing—The same reason for saving as giving
money—There will be, by Pensions, an army ready of reformado-officers—If they be so good officers as has been
said, they cannot want employment abroad.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] What commands they left, supposes, were in Holland—They may be commanded by the
King's friends beyond sea, and not starve—Agrees not
with the amendment of the Lords.
Sir John Duncombe.] Is ever for a good-natured motion in this House—Let them live easily by you, to
prevent conspiring—He is sure that you will not suffer
these men to starve.
Mr Sollicitor North.] It is enough to take their arms
and pay from them; therefore would agree to the word
Sir Thomas Meres.] It is asked "how they shall live?"
Where they lived before, and hopes the thing may be
accommodated with some words.
Sir Robert Howard.] It is said "that much of the King's
revenue may be saved by these "Pensions"—Hopes no
man will think the King too lavish in his rewards—There
is no Question of the King's doing what is good for him
and the nation.
Mr Garroway.] Would be one that should give money
to them towards commands abroad, rather than they
should want employment, being gallant men—Most of the
Gentlemen being strangers (Irishmen) may give occasion
for other Debates—Would not have "Pensions" given
them, and they stay here—Not worthy for them to do so,
nor safe for us.
Mr Attorney Finch.] If you do not agree with the
Lords, you must dispute upon a theme against "Pensions," hard to maintain!—It may be, the King may give
the Pension in trust to some Protestant friend for him—Would have no cruel thing urged at the Conference.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The King has been more bountiful
than any of his ancestors, therefore no wonder he wants
money—These are persons not to come near the Court
by Law—Two thirds of their estates forfeited—If this be
the case, how consonant will this be to your Laws? It
would never grieve him to allow a "Pension" in trust,
if the Parliament give it not.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Every man that has had an
employment abroad is not sure of it again, when a man
has laid out all his little fortune—Would not have all
officers have "Pensions;" but you, by not agreeing,
bind the King's hands, that, when persons grow aged,
they should be forbid "Pensions," and the King disabled
to give them.
Colonel Birch.] If he could express himself at once as
well as Coventry, would not stand up twice—The Question is now, "Whether such a "Pension" as may create
jealousy"—It is such a thing as does, and would have
Colonel Strangways.] Is not backward to reward such
persons as have served the King; but jealousy is the case
you speak of, in your Address—Divers of these persons
have been entertained, when Protestant officers were in
want—Old Cavaliers, no "Pensions" for them—Would
know upon what account these men were invited hither,
and by whom, we having sufficient at hand? We know,
where Princes disband officers, they keep them at half
pay, to use them upon occasion, and so may these—Therefore moves that we should not agree with the Lords.
[The amendment was rejected, 141 to 102.]
Friday, March 7.
[The Bill for giving Ease to Dissenters was read the second Time.]
Sir Philip Warwick.] Would not have ecclesia in ecclesiâ, imperium in imperio—Moves, that there may be a Test
upon persons to sit in this House, that the Church may
not be destroyed.
Colonel Strangways.] Moves, that no persons may be
capable of sitting in this House that are not conformable
to the Church of England, and will not take the Oath of
Allegiance and Supremacy, and receive the Sacrament.
Colonel Birch.] Knows not that, these seven years, he has
been absent from the Confession in the Church—But the
taking away the outworks of the Church does not so
weaken, as is said, when they are too large to be maintained—You are resorting now to the ancient Test in
Queen Elizabeth's time; signing the Articles then made
men capable of preferment; so that you are doing nothing now, but what was then thought enough, and had
good success then without these outworks. The main fort
was then tenable against the Church of Rome, and other
Dissenters; but now they must not be augmented; it is
the way to ruin the Church—They are not, in many
places, suffered to preach in an afternoon, tho' conformable; and yet they tell us, Churches are ruinated and
going down—He knows not what we should do with the
Churches, if they are not preached in—In parishes that
he knows, [there are] twenty thousand parishioners, some
above seven miles long, and no preaching in the Chapels—Would have them at liberty to preach in any decayed
Church or Chapel, that the Church of England men
and they may be acquainted with one another, in order
Colonel Titus.] Was always of opinion, that some
such thing as is before you was fit to be done—If they
are not at ease, they will be dangerous—Would not
have the Bill clogged with Provisoes—Much difference
between dispensing with some laws to them, and making
them law-makers—Would have no friends to laws be
abrogaters of them—Is for no man's sitting here, who is
not of the Church of England.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The thing looks improper—The
Bill continuing but to the end of next Session of Parliament, it will make the Bill Felo de se.
Sir William Coventry.] Do we settle the Church of
England for the present, and leave the reversion to other
persons? When the Bill is let fall, then it is likely that
the multipliers of Electors will chuse a stranger for them.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Thinks that, as the case stands,
the Sacrament is the main Test to a Member elected.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Thinks it a proper motion—It
is but establishing orders of Parliament by Act of Parliament—The Sacrament is very rarely connived at, but
for the sake of some very worthy eminent person.
[The Bill was ordered to be committed, and the Debate adjourned to Monday next.]
Reasons reported by Mr Powle, to be presented at a Conference [with the Lords] upon their amendments to the Address
to the King, to prevent the growth of Popery.
"The command of ships as great trust as that of land forces,
and therefore great assurance from the persons requisite; they
may else deliver up the ships, as well as the land trust. 3 James,
Recusants were disabled for sea as well as land: Now we have
far more reasons, our navy being more considerable; and they that
will not take the Test by land may go to sea, where there is no
Test, and do more mischief. "Pensions" are under the Great
Seal; therefore would not have them for Papists on Record.
It is now dangerous to continue them about the Court, where,
by Law, they ought not to be. Great expence of treasure, by
Pensions, now they cannot be employed; and discouragement
to Protestant Soldiers."
[After a Conference, the Lords sent word, "That they agreed
to the Address;" which was presented to his Majesty by both
Houses, in the afternoon.]
The King's Answer to the Address. [Erased in the printed
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I do heartily concur to the matter of the Address, and in
putting the Laws against Popery in execution; but suppose your
meaning is not, that they should extend to the foreign forces now
in my service, but, to the rest, shall be done as you desire."
Saturday, March 8.
The King's Answer to the second Address concerning the
Declaration, spoken by him in the House of Lords.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"Yesterday you presented me an Address, as the best
means for [the] satisfying and composing the minds of my subjects; to which I freely and readily agreed, and shall take care to
see it performed accordingly. I hope, on the other side, you
Gentlemen of the House of Commons will do your part. For
I must put you in mind, it is near five weeks since I demanded
a Supply; and what you voted unanimously [upon it] did both
give life to my affairs at home, and disheartened my enemies
abroad. But the seeming delay it hath met with since, hath made
them take new courage; and they are now preparing, for this
next summer, a greater fleet (as they say) than ever they had yet:
So that if the Supply be not speedily dispatched, it will be altogether
ineffectual; and the safety, honour, and interest of England
must of necessity be exposed. Pray lay this to heart, and let not
the fears and jealousies of some draw an inevitable ruin upon us
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"If there be any scruple remain yet with you, concerning
the suspension of penal Laws, I here faithfully promise you, that
what hath been done in that particular, shall not for the future be
drawn into consequence or example. And as I daily expect from
you a Bill for my Supply, so I assure you, I shall as willingly
receive, and pass, any other you shall offer me, that may tend to
the giving you satisfaction in all your just grievances."
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Moves for the Lords and we to
go in a body to the King to give him thanks; all scruples
being now taken away by his full and gracious Answer.
Mr Powle.] Though it happened, that, in some late
Answers, there has been some mixture and alloy, yet in
this, it is as full as may be—Though last night he had some
scruples as to "foreign forces," yet now all is so clear,
that he moves for thanks to the King, in as full a manner as may be.
Mr Vaughan.] Pauper est numerare pecus—His joy is so
great as not to be expressed—Moves for thanks to the
King in as ample a manner as may be.
[Resolved, Nem. con. "That the humble and hearty thanks
of this House be returned to his Majesty, for his gracious, full,
and satisfactory Answer;" which being presented, by both
Houses, in the afternoon, his Majesty was pleased to return this
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I hope there will never be any more difference amongst us.
I assure you, there never shall be any occasion on my part."]
Monday, March 10.
[Debate, whether an instruction should be given to the Committee on the Bill for Ease of Dissenters, to provide therein, that
Dissenters should be incapable of sitting in the House.]
Mr Garroway.] If the House of Commons must be
only garbled, he is against the Test for elections, unless it
extends to the Lords House. It is as much the birthright of the Commons to sit here, as the Lords in the
Sir John Duncombe.] He is much afraid of this Bill—All our Properties are concerned in it, as well as our
Religion—It is their birth-right, but they ought to be
bound by your Laws—If you set up the Sectaries with
Churches, you leave your own unsupported—As long as
people preach to please their congregation, they must
preach mercenarily and seditiously—Remember what the
Constitution of the kingdom is—He fears its ruin—Gentlemen do know how they are threatened already, by
these Dissenters—At the same time you give them Ease,
do not deliver up your Church—Atheism will overcome
all; your families will taste of this—Did never expect this
day in this House—Keep out Dissenters from this House,
and do it how you please.
Mr Swynfin.] The subject of Duncombe's discourse is,
to make Dissenters incapable of sitting in Parliament—This Bill stands like no other Bill he remembers—You
have committed your Bill, but say, your Committee shall
not sit—'Tis clearly better to lay the Bill aside, than do it
with dissatisfaction; though it should pass by a few voices,
yet it may be of ill consequence abroad.
Sir John Duncombe.] "Whether a Test, or no Test,
for a Member," was the thing he moved.
Sir Charles Harbord.] Never was Bill of so short a
continuance as this; and a perpetual Test upon a temporary Bill, never knew it before.
Lord St. John.] The King had found good effect by
the Declaration, and we hope we shall find good by this
Bill—The Bill will cause people to pay their money
chearfully, and he would not have it clogged with Provisos.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Whilst you are giving liberty
to several religions, will you confound the Government?
Will not you be exact in this House, the fountain, when
you are clearing the streams? We are intrusted with the
safety of the State, and we are to give no liberty to endanger it—Now you keep them out of the Church,
never let them have power to make Laws—Though the
Bill be temporary, yet provisos have been grafted upon
such Bills; you may revoke it, if inconvenient, when you
Mr Powle.] The proper Question is, "Whether a Test
in this Bill or no"—You intend this Bill as an Ease:
Will you do them a favour, and at the same time a disgrace? Ill to be mixed together; usually two contrary
things destroy the whole—You may annex it to the Popery-Bill—Is fully for the thing, but in this Bill it will
destroy the whole.
Mr Hale.] It is doubtless very useful, but knows nor
why in this Bill—Here we cannot better express our
duty to the King, than in coming as near to the Declaration as we can, and no mention of this there—Almost
half your time is spent in Elections—This will remedy
much of that disorder.
Sir John Bramstone.] This Bill will prove a mark of
distinction upon people, and bring few into the Church—Instead of bringing men into the Church, you will pull
them out by it.
Colonel Titus.] You are debating a thing, before we
know whether we are to do it or no.
Sir William Coventry.] "It is irregular to put a Question
upon the matter," says Birkenhead; and offers an opinion
the better to put a Clause in a temporary Bill—A Gardener would be of opinion to graft a stock like to last,
than what may probably die in a year—As a spectator,
he observed, in the late Usurpation, that, by narrowing
their party, and garbling the Parliament with Oaths and
Tests, they lessened themselves, and made many parties,
friends—As the Church now stands, to strengthen it, get
friends, and have few enemies—When a Test is proposed,
he is for it, and will never presume it extravagant—Such
a Test as will be for black-haired men or white, there is
danger of. The danger may be of forty or fifty men here;
but if thousands have right to be here, if elected, whom
will you discontent? Such a stomach it may raise, by restraint of sitting here, as in the man confined to Paris,
though never out of it in his life—They will say, "the
Church of England hinders them," and will hate the
Church for it—It is proper to come in the Bill for Dissenters purely Protestant—If Papists will take the oaths, and
abandon their principles, making nothing of the Sacrament, and that nothing bar them from sitting here;
shall not Protestants sit here on the same terms? Therefore, it is not reasonable to come within this Bill; but if
you please, appoint a Committee what Test may be for
the Parliament sitting, and let this Bill go to commitment.
Sir Robert Carr.] The Clause of Corn in the MoneyBill as unnatural, as this Clause in this Bill—But a year
or a half grafted—All the reasons urged here are not
heard without doors—Thinks it so far from clogging
this Bill, that it will be for its advantage.
Colonel Birch.] Could hardly believe, till now, that
this Bill was in earnest; the great argument in it was to
enable people to follow their callings, and quiet their
minds, and to be safe from Popery—Admit you shall
agree, that no person can be capable, &c. unless conformable; but what will you make this conformity? He
has never met with six that are so—Subscription once
made a man conformable—You could never yet bring
the Bill of Popery to pass, but hopes this Bill will—Moves to have the Question single, whether the Test
shall be affixed to this Bill.
Mr Milward.] The Question is, "Dissenters from the
Church of England"—What to be conformable is, several
Statutes declare—He is for granting them Ease to enjoy
their consciences—He repines not at it; but there is great
difference betwixt Ease and Preferment; but to capacitate
them to set aside the Church of England so burdensome to
them, thinks it not safe.
Mr Vaughan.] Had not the King stuck more to this
House than the Papists in the House of Lords, the Declaration had never been stopped. Was this an Ease, to
brand all Dissenters in the forehead with a letter?—Thinks
this does not tear the Church in pieces, as is said—Hopes
this Bill will unite us, that we may be all friends—This
Clause is proper for the Bill of Elections.
Mr Attorney Finch.] No man can speak to the matter, for no man knows how it will come from the Committee—Looks upon this Bill of Ease as a pious thing, to
reconcile, and not to establish separation: We lose time
all this while in the Question —Would not have the Dissenters part of the legislative power, till they be of one
body with us in doctrine and discipline—Where is the
difference of having them in one part of the roll or another chapter, as anciently Laws were? Will it stop any
Bill? It is reason and justice that must pass it, and not this
or that Bill—Put the Question, and let it take its fortune.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The word "Dissenter" is large; but
appoint a Test and you will have one ready—It looks to
him as if you thought the Church of England so mean
that you should have none but Dissenters —Thinks the
Bill is rather to show how small their numbers are—When
they may preach without hazard, their labour will be
less, and their pay accordingly, by this putting them out
of hazard—Thinks you will not have a negative in a
Bill of itself, and moves for it.
Mr Sollicitor North.] When people would destroy a
thing, they begin first to divert it: The design of the
Bill is to indulge Dissenters, and to enlarge the Church.
It is wisdom to preserve our strength, that they may never hope to weaken us in Corporation-Elections, where
that party is strongest.
Sir Edward Dering.] Uses to speak his mind freely,
and therefore hopes to be heard favourably—He is not
clear as to the Bill itself, but doubts not of the fitness of
such a Clause. The most speedy way is to commit the
Bill without this Clause, and make it a Bill by itself.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Is for the thing, but not for the
Question with this Bill.
Sir Philip Warwick.] Protests, in the presence of God,
that if you will make these people a Church of England
that are but a part, he is against it—Hopes you will not
abase the Church of England and its doctrine, that you
have so lately thanked the King for maintaining.
Colonel Strangways.] The more he considers of it, he
finds that those Gentlemen who were for the Declaration,
are against this, and e contra—Therefore moves for a Bill.
Sir Thomas Osborne.] They, without this Clause, may
be capable to give you indulgence, as you may now give
them—Would have it look like a thing given by us,
and not wrested from us.
[The Question being put, That such an instruction be given
to the Committee, it passed in the Negative, 163 to 107.
Resolved, That a distinct Bill be brought in on the subjectmatter of this Debate.]
[March 11 omitted.]