Debates in the House of Commons,
From the Year 1667, to the Year 1694.
Monday, October 20, 1673.
The House met.
Ordered,
That an Address be made to his Majesty, by such
Members of the House as are of his Majesty's Privy
Council, to acquaint his Majesty, that it is the humble desire of this House, that the intended marriage of his Royal
Highness with the Princess (fn. 1) of Modena be not consummated;
and [that] he may not be married to any person but of the Protestant religion (fn. 2) .
[The House was then prorogued by his Majesty to
Monday, October 27.
When the King, in his Speech, which was delivered in writing
to the Speaker, told them, "That he thought that day to have
welcomed them with an honourable Peace; but that the Dutch
had disappointed him, and had treated his Ambassadors at Cologne with the contempt of Conquerors, and not as might be expected from men in their condition:
"That this obliged him to move them again for a Supply
proportionable to the occasion, the safety and honour of the nation requiring it; and that if he had it not speedily, the mischief
would be irreparable in his preparations for the next spring:
"That the great experience he had had of the House of Commons would not suffer him to believe that the artifices of
their enemies could possibly divert them from giving him this
Supply:
"That he hoped they were persuaded that he was steady in
maintaining his professions and promises concerning Religion and
Property; and that he should be very ready to give them fresh
instances of his zeal for preserving the established Religion and
Laws.
"Lastly, He recommended to their consideration and care the
debt he owed the Goldsmiths, in which many more of his subjects were involved; and desired their assistance for their relief (fn. 3) ."
"For the rest he referred them to the Chancellor," who, in
his speech, now studied to correct his Delenda est Carthago, applying it to the Lovestein
(fn. 4) party, whom he called "the Carthaginians (fn. 5) ."]
[Debate.]
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The King's Speech consists of
many parts and refers to the Chancellor's Speech, which
you have not reported—Moves for an adjournment till
Friday, that we may, by some means, have it to consider.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Moves for thanks to the
King, for his care of our great concerns, Religion and
Property.
Sir Robert Carr.] You usually let no minutes pass
before you give his Majesty thanks—Would have
thanks ordered now, and would have that day moved
for, to consider of the other parts of the Speech.
Sir John Hotham.] It is unusual to give thanks, before
men have time to look over the paper; would in this,
and in all other matters, do things like wise, honest, and
reasonable men.
Sir John Duncombe.] The motion is "to return thanks
to the King for his care of our Religion and Properties."
This is so reasonable that your hearts can desire no more
—It is not to take the parts of the Speech into
consideration—He cannot say, it has been customary to
return thanks, but it has been frequently done since he
had the honour to sit here, and would have it so now.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The last Session, "Religion and Property" were in the King's Speech, and no thanks were returned then; but why should we thank, before we know
for what to thank? Knows not how the Privy Counsellors have been made acquainted with the parts of this
Speech; he is not, and would consider of it before we
give thanks.
Mr Attorney Finch.] If any thing was moved, that
any consequences in the King's Speech might hinder, he
should not wonder. To make haste to give thanks for that
which has no doubt, it is matter of wonder to him that
it should be opposed—It is no new thing—In Queen
Elizabeth's time, our Journal has several instances of
such thanks—He will not oppose Friday for consideration of the parts of the King's Speech—The King is
safe in the affections of this House, but this will fall to
the ground with a very ill grace, if put off.
Mr Sacheverell.] Thanks, deliberately given, are sure
as acceptable as hastily—When you come to consider, you
will find neither "Religion nor Property" mentioned—In the country he lives in [there is] quartering of soldiers,
and horses taken away—In a paper in his hand, finds Law
Martial and Oaths, and knows many things more, and
by Friday shall acquaint you further.
Mr Mallet.] One who was presented to the King in
our Address, as an Agent for the Catholics of Ireland, he
has seen in Whitehall Gates; Talbot—This thing, he confesses, retards his thanks.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The Martial Law was never
intended to be put in execution, till the army should be
beyond sea; and as for Talbot, he was very lately at
Paris, and knows not of his being in England.
Sir John Hotham.] If the Martial Articles were only for
France, why not then in French? Answered, "Because the
soldiers were English, and could not understand them."
Mr Garroway.] Never was unready to send the King
thanks, but if we return them so suddenly, we shall be
thought, without doors, teized and corrupted; but we
are under censures, and it is no irreverence to the King,
when it comes from a House that does consider—They
say, a Member of yours has translated the French articles
of war into English, hopes we shall find him; he deserves
not to sit here; let them be for France and not us—Nolumus mutare, &c. If some change Law to our prejudice,
some may do it to the King's prejudice, and he would
adjourn this Debate of thanks.
Sir James Smith.] These articles were only to prevent
enormities amongst the soldiers, but no ways to intrench
upon either Common or Statute Law.
Mr Stockdale.] In our country there was a Martial
(not a Court Martial) for then the man might have
been hanged; an Overseer of the Poor was committed
to him, and not released till he had paid five pounds.
Mr Powle.] Smith tells you, "the articles were only for
the soldiers in England," and now we have all the reason
to take notice of them—Doubts not but we shall have
reason to give the King great thanks, and when they
come deliberately, 'tis more acceptable than when they
come upon surprize.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] The King is a gracious Prince,
but we have had strange clouds, and since the last Session, all our Addresses have been broken—(Interrupted
by Garroway to Order, "That when Grievances are considered
be may then present what he has to say.")
[Resolved, That the consideration of his Majesty's Speech be
adjourned till Friday next.]
Debate concerning the Speaker.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Many exceptions were taken
against your service, when you was last called to the
Chair—Excepts that you are a Privy Counsellor; hardly
a precedent, at least not since the Reformation—Speakers, in Queen Mary's time, were chosen for the re-establishment of the Roman religion—You might be made a
Privy Counsellor afterwards, as a reward of your service,
but not whilst you are Speaker—Other offices you hold
inconsistent with that Chair, and have admittance to the
most secret councils, and how improper is that, we having
no man to present our Grievances but you! You are too
big for that Chair, and for us; and you, that are one of the
Governors of the world, to be our servant, is incongruous—And as Carteret, Treasurer of the Navy, in that place
[which you hold] took up the main business of a Session; by
way of supposition, if that should happen again, were it
proper for you to be in the Chair? For who [then] will be so
much concerned?—Moves for a Speaker, pro tempore, and
'tis very incongruous you should sit when so immediately
concerned.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Thinks what has been said so rational, that he cannot think that any man can be against
it—We entrust you with all our secrets; and in your
Predecessors times, no Speaker had liberty to go to
Court, without leave—It is the Order, "that when any
reflection is upon a Member, he stands up and speaks
his defence, and retires," and would have it so now.
Sir William Portman.] What we say here can be no
secret among four hundred men; persons in the Hall
know what we do: Craves leave, that some Precedents,
out of Hackwell's book, of Speakers being Privy Counsellors, may be read.
Sir Joseph Tredenham.] Former ages have known none
more fit for Speakers than Privy Counsellors—Sir John
Bushell, who was Favourite to Richard II. was Speaker of
all the Parliaments in his time—Sir Thomas More, in 14
Henry VIII.—In 4 Queen Mary, Cordell, a Privy Counsellor—Has it ever been objected that a Privy Counsellor
cannot be a Parliament-man? We have often made use
of Privy Counsellors to send Messages by to the King—The eyes of all the kingdom are upon our actions—It is
a mark of the King's favour, that you are in the Chair
—Would have it referred to a Committee, but not you
to quit the Chair, that being a yielding of the Question.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Never was it an exception against
any man before in your Chair, that he was a Privy
Counsellor; if any precedent can be of it, then turn me
out of the House—The making him Speaker, is the
King's and your joint act—If any complaint be against
you, answer it, but for causa inaudita, it was never heard
of: It is clear that the first Speaker, Hungerford, was of
the Privy Council, and he was ex concilio Domini Regis—Froisard, the Historian, was another, no Gown-man—Sir Thomas Gargrave, of the Queen's honourable Council [many may say of the Council of the North] a
Speaker, in Henry VIIIth's time, and a great instrument
of the Reformation—This will reflect upon the King's
making you a Privy Counsellor—Never any Speaker quitted the Chair upon that account.
Mr Powle.] Is not envious at your promotion, but
thinks it an improper thing for you to be in the Chair,
and both inconvenient to the King and this House; the
King's welfare consists in the freedom of this House.
When you a Privy Counsellor, and so near the King,
your frowns may be a terror to any man that shall speak
how the Council have misled the King, and given him
counsel to overtop us; you are a public Accomptant of
the King's revenue, and vast sums must go through
your hands, and can we make complaint to you of your
own misdemeanors?—Or take measures from any
person but from the intention of this House?—Believes
that the Precedents will fail; at this time, most especially, would not have it; for, if allowed once, it may be
always so by Precedent—The Precedent of the Speaker,
in Richard IId's time, an ill one; that Speaker was a Minion of the King, but no Counsellor, as the Record
says; he was greatly the occasion of the misfortunes of
those times—1st and 2d of Philip and Mary, unprosperous times; in two Parliaments they could do nothing; but when Higbems was Speaker, the Obedience
to the Pope was confirmed—He was not sworn Counsellor till ten months after, and Cordell was not Counsellor
till some time after.
Mr William Harbord.] Tells the Speaker, that you expose the Honour of the House in resorting to Gaminghouses, with Foreigners as well as Englishmen, and ill places;
takes this to be a great misdemeanor—As for your being
a Privy Counsellor, thinks that no exception, but is
sorry to see the Honour of the House exposed—Thinks
you to be an unfit person to be Speaker, by your way of
living.
Colonel Strangways.] What he has heard to day
weighs not with him; exceptions against the Speaker,
as a Privy Counsellor, will be a garbling the House—You are charged here for being a Gamester; wishes men
were guilty of no greater crime—The Judges may as
well be excepted against.
The Speaker rose up and complimented the House to this effect, "That he held no employment a greater Honour to him
than that which he had in their service," &c.
[The Question being propounded, That Mr Speaker do leave
the Chair, and a Speaker, pre tempore, be appointed: The
Question being put, That that Question be now put; it passed
in the negative.]
[Adjourned to Thursday.]
Thursday, October 30.
Mr Sacbeverell.] Sees a person (Sir Paul Neale) sit in
the House, whom he knows not to be a Member; desires to know by what right he sits there.
Sir Paul Neale proffered to speak, but was not suffered; "because if admitted to speak in his place, you allow him to be a
Member"—By divers he was called to the Bar, and explained, "not
as criminal, but only as not being allowed a Member, as Lord
Bristol, Lord Chief Justice Keeling, and others have been, not
Members."
Earl of Ogle.] Desired to inform the House by what
right Sir Paul Neale sat there; viz. as being returned a Burgess for Newark with Mr Savile, by virtue of the King's
Charter granted to that borough.
Mr Sacheverell.] He is informed that that Charter has
taken in many towns which were not in the former
Charter, to their great prejudice, and would have it considered.
Sir Paul Neale did at last withdraw, and the thing, at that
time, was proceeded no farther in.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Desires to know the opinion
of the House, whether he shall deliver a Message from
the King, which he had in command during the Prorogation.
Mr Garroway.] There are several precedents, in King
James's time, of returns of Messages to the King in time
of Prorogation.
Sir Robert Carr.] Would have the thing decided by a
Question, that it may be a guide for the future.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Would have no Question about receiving an Answer from the King, which is always gracious.
The Message was read by the Speaker, viz.
"Charles R.
His Majesty having received an Address from the House of
Commons, presenting their humble desire, that the intended
marriage between his Royal Highness and the Princess (fn. 6) of Modena be not consummated, commandeth this Answer to be returned: That he perceiveth the House of Commons have wanted
a full information of this matter, the marriage being not barely
intended, but completed, according to the forms used amongst
Princes, and by his Royal Consent and Authority—Nor could he
in the least suppose it disagreeable to his House of Commons,
his Highness having been, in the view of the world, for several
months, engaged in a treaty of marriage with another Catholic
Princess, and yet a Parliament held during that time, and not the
least exception taken at it."
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Though he knew generally
there was a Message from the King when the House sat,
yet knew no particulars of it, and could not inform you
then—The Earl of Peterborough had his several instructions and commission from the King, and his orders.
When the Sponsalia verba de præsenti were over, he then
presented the jewels from the Duke of York, & in iis indissolubile matrimonium; then the remaining jewels were
presented—As for what has been reported, "that the
King of France should give the dower," assures you, he
gives not one penny of it; she had four hundred thousand crowns left her by her father, and to be married by
consent of her mother—We are as able to be without,
as the King of France to give, the portion.
After a long silence:
Mr Stockdale.] This is a matter of great weight,
and undertaken with great concern—He gave reasons for
the great danger of this match at the Debate; the King's
Answer has much Grace in it, but it does not remove the
fears and jealousies of the kingdom—Knows not how the
Civil Law may be, as to Sovereigns, but as to subjects
believes it not binding—Would rather pay the money
she is to have in portion than that the match should go
on, and would have the King addressed unto to prevent it.
Colonel Birch.] Is full of sorrow for this Answer, and
thinks us all so—Nothing can make Gentlemen speak
in this business but true love, which has occasioned our
silence, love to the King and his Highness—Will not
undertake to decide the business as a Civil Lawyer, but
thinks it may be undone—Popery, our Divines say, is
idolatry, and we condemn many things practised in that
Church—When confidence betwixt the King and people
is broken, all is amiss—We have not had merry days in
England since marriages have been—It is laid upon us,
in the Message, "that we formerly sat still when another
marriage of the Duke's was in treaty;" there was, indeed, a rumour, but no certainty of it—He thinks Religion so much concerned in this, that if it goes on, he will
leave speaking for Religion here—Moves to refer it to
two or three Gentlemen to pen an Address to the King to
prevent this marriage, and thinks he will never deny us a
request so reasonable as this.
Mr Cheney.] Persons cannot withdraw to pen the Address, before you rightly understand the thing. Verba de
præsenti are binding words—Would have it enquired
in the Instrumentum stipulatum—In the Spanish match
there were disponsories that a marriage should be contracted, and in this a marriage is contracted—Would
have it enquired, whether in the manner of doing it,
the commission was not exceeded—Would have an Address to the King, if possible, to prevent it.
Sir Allen Apsley.] The marriage is gone so far on,
that to stop it now, would be the greatest dishonour
imaginable, and the Duke cannot recede from it.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Gentlemen speak with grief of
heart, when they consider how near the Duke is to
the Crown, and these marriages may be of great consequence in future times; he finds the Privy Counsellors
strangers to it—Secretary Coventry has averred himself a
stranger to it—Sees so much inconvenience in it, that
he could wish us well rid of it—The King of France, in
the marriage of Monsieur with the Prince Elector's
daughter, sent to Mentz to forbid her entrance into his
dominions, unless she declared herself a Catholic, "for,
he said, all considerations ought to vail to the weal of
his people, being against the opinion of his Council and
Clergy."
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Confesses a Protestant match
more chusable, but both Religions are legal matches,
and were never excepted against but in this Princess—We have none but daughters by the Duke, and if the
Duke should not marry this, and marry another wife,
and that marriage be disputable, what a case are we in?
In annulling this, you will annull former marriages—Could wish this Lady a Protestant, but this having been
so far proceeded in, fears it out of our power to hinder it.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Question is before you as the
great Council of the King, for the inconvenience of it—The Clergy and Convocation may inform him,
whether it is a marriage or not a marriage, but for
places for Priests and Jesuits to be publickly in, would
have no more than are already—If it be so far gone as is
said, we can only lament it, but let us show our dislike
of it.
Sir Charles Harbord.] In his old master King James's
case, he was nearer to Queen Elizabeth in point of succession, than the Duke is to the King, for it ceased to be
with her after the manner of women, and then there was
no Question of his marriage by proxy.
Earl of Ancram.] Could wish this a Protestant match,
and hopes you may secure the thing for the future, that we
may be defended against Rome; but thinks it out of your
power to hinder this, or any other; let the danger be
what it will, thinks it out of your power—To affront a
man that has fought your battles, and amongst so many
men of honour,—hopes you will not put him upon such a
hardship.
Sir Charles Wheeler.] When we consider the great
growth of Popery, it concerns him—In the 19th of King
James, exception was taken that the Commons meddled
in matters of Religion, and the Spanish match; the
Commons "remonstrated, that matters of marriage were
in the King's power, but the nation was concerned in it,
and they must discharge their duty, and would rest satisfied in what the King did;" and he would have it so now.
Sir Thomas Higgins.] Marriage in verbis de præsenti is
indissoluble; the Princess is on the way—What the King
does, in his royal function, is the act of the people, and
the kingdom is bound, this house, and every man, by it—All Kings are concerned in it, to preserve their supreme
power—The law of nature is concerned in it, and nothing
so against it—Præterita magis reprehendenda sunt quam
corrigenda; we may lament it, and would have good
Laws against Popery, but would not have the honour of
the nation concerned.
Lord St. John.] A Lady so nearly related to the Court
of Rome; must be a very inconvenient match—As to the
matter of Contract, refers that to other persons; but
would have Gentlemen withdraw and prepare some
reasons to present the King against it.
Mr Waller.] As long as he has sat here, never saw any
thing of the same nature; he is much astonished at it—How far this concerns our peace and quiet! No greater
disadvantage possible, than for a Prince to marry one of
a different Religion—When the King did communicate
his Marriage, he was the sole man that spoke against it,
and was cried down—Thinks you have done well to go
as far as you can in preventing it, but now you hear of
Desponsories—It is, first, for the honour of the House,
not to interpose; the King communicated his Marriage,
and you approved it; and now a thing is past all remedy, and you interpose—Next, consider how it stands as
to alliance with Idolaters; by that reason we can make no
consideration of Peace with them—Why should we find
fault with this, when we do things ourselves daily by Proxies?
We are the people's Proxies—The Sponsalia and the Portion
agreed—Breach of Faith and Religion, the breaking it
shaking all human society; it is past our help; the
French married one of a different religion; if we break
this, it may have an ill influence on our posterity—First
we pray for posterity of the King—A friend of his married a wife, contracted before; the suit lasted seven years—Charles VIII. went to Britany in person to that Dutchess's bed (fn. 7) , but it put all Christendom in an uproar—It
is strange that we should thus seek a doubt for this; it is
neither for the House's honour, religion, nor the good of
the nation; and, above all these, consider how the Duke
has exposed his person—Consider the thing and the person, and hopes you will decline this manner of proceeding.
Sir John Duncombe.] The Duke has proceeded in this
match with all respect to the King; he has had his leave
and authority—It will be a hard thing to stop here;
where will you be secure if you have this marriage stopped? Suppose it should be, where were you then? It is
a nation this Lady comes from that you have yet
had no experience of, a sober and wise nation—Can you
say to any man, you shall not marry this or that woman?
Can you be sure that any woman shall not be a Catholic?
He had rather have a foreign Catholic than one at home—Thinks, in this case, the King having proceeded so far,
and you having done your part, you may proceed to
what remedy you shall think fit against Popery, and
other things fit to be redressed, and leave this.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Will not answer, though he could,
many of the objections—The King seems to believe as if
your thoughts were, that the Duke had intended this
match only, and had not gone so far as is said—The King's
answer is gentle, and nothing of a denial—Some may
tell you that the Duke being not a crowned head, the
proceedings already are not obligatory, especially being
not consummated—As Princes move in orbs above us, so
they have difficulties attend them greater than other men;
those hardships they meet with may be prevented, and
hopes that what we shall do may be with his Majesty's
honour, and safety to his Royal Highness—Who thinks
the Duke a Protestant? To marry a Papist gives great
occasion of jealousies of Popery—Consider that there are
two hundred persons to one in the people against Popery,
and yet the people are afraid of Popery; he cannot imagine
the reason of their fears but from these marriages with
Popish foreign Allies, terrible to us in this case—As he
loves the King, his Country, and his Royal Highness,
would have you proceed with all steadiness—The King
wants your advice, and calls for your advice; pray give
your advice.
Mr Attorney Finch.] It will be in vain to consider
of the form of this Address, when the matter will
not bear one—Methinks we should never attempt to
desire that which is not safe if granted, and if granted, not possible to be effected—Is not causa præcontractûs
subjecting the thing to debate in after-ages? Are we not
informed that the Duke has proceeded to the Sponsalia,
and all other formalities that can be? We know not what
kind of tumults these seeds may produce—He allows that
these Marriages have been a handle to Popery, and the
best flag in all their banners; but we know that he who
first did so, died a Martyr for the Protestant religion—When Queen Elizabeth treated with the Duke of Alençon,
that Queen would scarce let him have a Chaplain of
his own—He knows of no Articles in this Marriage for
public exercise of religion. Can this Marriage expose you
to more danger than you can prevent? He considers the
safety of the King; it is infinitely inconvenient that it
should go abroad that the King has denied you this; but
when the thing denies itself, expose not the Government
nor the Duke to the possibility of illegitimate issue—You
have done all that with prudence and moderation you
can do, and trust God and the King with your religion.
Mr Harwood.] We see not here whether the thing can
be undone or no, but the best counsel we can give, we
ought to give—Hopes it may prove so that it may be
undone—At your last Addresses the people were wonderfully rejoiced; and will you leave here, when Religion lies at the root, and so much combustion is
to be feared? This still sends us to the King. Should
you not pursue, it would be thought we have no reasons for the thing: If all is done, yet we do our
duty.
Mr Powle.] Cannot speak to this business without
sorrow, when so many learned and honourable Gentlemen have told you, that the disease is past cure. The
education of the children of this Marriage may ruin the
Government in after-ages—When money is to be given,
or any good thing done, still Popery spoils all. He observes, you have the Secretary here, that cannot tell you
how this match was done; this is an evidence that the Council knew nothing of it: Parliaments have been consulted,
and now not so much as the Privy Counsellors—Surely
here is some great precipitation in this privacy of carrying
it—It is said, that it is so far proceeded in, that it cannot be recalled. In the instance of Maximilian, both
the Succession of France and Spain depended upon it,
yet no question was ever made of either of those Successions—It is said, "the King's word is engaged;" the
King is under an oath at his Coronation, and has reiterated all his promises, and these will weigh more with
them, than any consideration with foreign Princes—Dreads the question of Succession to be disputable, but
does as much Queen Mary's days; a Papist Princess.
Since the Duke is so near the Crown, let us take care
his Children may be Protestant—The Parliament, upon
their knees, desired Henry VII. to marry the Princess Elizabeth, daughter to Edward IV. and they interposed with
the very person the King was to marry—If this Marriage
goes on, we may return home, bewail, and pray, having
nothing else left us for our portion.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Before he came into the Council, Lord Peterborough was employed about the other
match, and Lord Peterberough has had the very same
instructions for this.
Upon the Question, Whether an Address should be prepared
to be presented to his Majesty, concerning the Match between his
Royal Highness and the Princess of Modena, it passed in the
Affirmative, 184 to 88, which number was criticised upon [and
a Committee was appointed to prepare an Address accordingly.]
Mr Cheney.] Moved for declaring the opinion of the
House about the Test, in the Act of Popery, how far it
does reach to your own Members.
Mr Garroway.] Is against the form of Mr Cheney's
motion, though not against the matter—Would have a
Bill, that every Member may take the Test here; and
would have it go higher, into the Lords House, that
those that have a share in the Law-making, should be of
the same Religion.
Sir Robert Howard.] Without a thorough care, we
shall be in a worse condition for Religion than before—The destiny of a Heretic determines what they will do
with us—Would have such a Test fitted for nothing but
what the Papists may reject—It is necessary, that where
any fountain is, it may be pure; and he would have the Protestant Religion pull up the very roots of Popery,
wherever they grow—Would have it reach all under the
notion of Protestants, and be calculated for Popery
only.
Mr Cheney.] Thinks that his motion is well improved—He would have former laws for Popery inspected.
Sir Nicholas Carew.] Thinks it will be too great a clogging the Bill, but would have it so as to clear the House
of Lords, and the Court, of Papists.
[Resolved, That a Bill be prepared for a General Test, to distinguish between Protestants and Papists; and those that shall refuse to take it, be incapable to enjoy any office, military or
civil; or to sit in either House of Parliament; or to come within
five miles of the Court.]
Friday, October 31.
Debate on his Majesty's Speech, which was read, by Order.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Consideration of this is proper for
a Committee of the whole House, to debate the matter
more freely.
Sir John Birkenhead.] Some parts of the King's Speech
are not so proper for a Committee; we agree, in the House,
about Money, quod sit, before we go into a Grand Committee.
Mr Boscawen.] In the King's Speech there is "Money"
in the first place, and "Money" in the last; all "Money:"
Therefore would have it debated in a Grand Committee.
Mr Cheney.] Has heard that the Dutch have some
thoughts that we might come into the Peace immediately; then there can be no necessity for Money—Moves,
that if the Dutch do not, in some time, agree to an honourable Peace, that we may supply the King—It is in
vain to give Money, if not applied to the purpose we
intend it—Before any thing of Money be, moves that
we may come to this Vote, "that if, in two months
time, the Dutch come not to an honourable Peace, we
may assist his Majesty as becomes us."
Mr Sacheverell.] Has ever understood, that giving of
Money ought to be debated at a Committee of the whole
House, where we may lay open our Grievances, which
are very many, with the more freedom.
Sir John Duncombe.] It has not been usual to go into
a Committee, without directions from the whole House—For Religion you have proceeded very prudently in—Cannot but advise you to make peace at home; people
will quiet their passions best with calming all at home,
if men could be satisfied, and not afraid of their own
good—Would now go into this business of Religion:
That burns in every man's heart, and he sees every
man's face full of it, and that is the beginning of the
King's Speech.
Sir Thomas Meres.] There are Orders remaining upon
your books, and practice—Says, upon search of ancient
Orders, that the King's Speech was ever debated in a
Grand Committee—Agrees with Duncombe, if we may
not be surprized with rash Votes, that the House may
rectify what surprize we may have upon us.
The House resolved into a Grand Committee.
Sir Charles Harbord in the Chair.
Mr Russel.] The business of this day is "Money"—Would rather be thought to mean well, and speak ill,
than to betray the trust of his Country—Would not
vote things hand over head; let us consider what we
give this Money for, and consider that what we give is
destructive to the nation (by maintaining this war) and
the Protestant religion—The French King calls this war
"a Catholic war;" and seeing we are upon so wrong a
bottom, and if betrayed by those about the King, let us
tell him plainly of it; former Parliaments have done it,
and moves to pass a negative Vote upon "Money."
Sir John Monson.] In the French Gazette the Pope
approves of the progress of the French arms; the last
fight was, as if the English and Dutch had been the Gladiators for the French spectators (fn. 8) —If the Prince had
been well seconded, there had been an end of the
war, and the Dutch must have begged a peace of us—We gave two millions to set out but part of a Navy
for a Summer—What greater encouragement can be
given to the Dutch? Our native commodities give no
price; want of coals makes us want fire, and floods have
destroyed grass and hay: fire and water against us! We
have want of people; many are sent away, and he will
say nothing of the end for which they are sent; therefore
moves "against a Supply."
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Knows not that ever the
House of Austria had the name of Hugonot amongst
them, though Holland joined with them—We can have
war with Holland without Religion in the case; they
once had the French, as we have now—Concurs for the
establishing the Protestant Religion at home; if not
sound in the vitals, we shall never be sound in the limbs—If the King had wasted his treasure for magnificent buildings, or palaces, would be against giving
money; but if, for not paying some few taxes the
nation may be lost, would have Gentlemen consider of
it—Avers that the Dutch have not made any proposition,
only a piece of one, "for the flag;" and "if we will
quit the King of France, they will then tell us more,
and they are allied with the King of Spain, and Lorrain,
and cannot agree without them"—You yourself, Sir
Charles Harbord, have been obliged by the Hollanders;
he has served there under them in their army, and honours the Orange family before any, next to that of his
own Prince, and loves the country; but consider they
have provided a great fleet against the Summer, and you
will give no money, and so have no fleet; which way will
you secure the Plantations and Tangier? If you think
they will give peace, it will be such a one then as to a
people they contemn—If you come upon a vote of "no
Money," it will be as fatal as that of the Long Parliament, of "no farther Addresses to the King"—Were a man jealous of his wife, would he make her
poor and naked, and force her to put herself into the
arms of another man?—Concludes this vote to be the
most fatal blow you can give the nation.
Lord Cavendish.] Here is Money asked of us to carry
on a war we were never advised about, and what we have
given is turned to raising of families, and not paying
the King's debts—There is so little fruit of the Addresses
of the last Session, that we now find greater Grievances,
as Articles of War and martial Law—The nation's
interest is laid aside for private interest—Supposes that
what we gave the last Session may be a sufficient Supply
for the war, and moves for a negative "against Money."
Colonel Strangways.] It is a sad condition we are reduced to, and who have reduced us to it is a secret
not yet come to his knowledge, and in due time may be
considered—If you shall pass negative Votes, what advantage do you give your enemies in such a Vote? Are
you sure you shall have Peace? Would never have the
King hold his Crown of the King of France—Desires we
may not depend for our security either upon France or
Holland—The Hollanders are a trading and a subtle people, and would have a fleet set out—He aims at this;
begin with Grievances and your Liberty—France has entangled us; the public articles are ill enough; what are
then the private articles? We are to provide sixty ships,
and the French thirty—If the House does not assist the
King, then the French come upon us for Breach of Articles—In a parliamentary way consider first "Grievances," and then "Money." The House of Commons
keeps the purse; and never put the Question for "Money," before you know what you shall have for it—But is
against a negative Question.
Sir Thomas Lee.] When you gave away so much Money, then began the Alliance with France, and no debts
paid, though Money given for it—The Dutch were not
the aggressors in the last war, when we were weary of
fighting alone; now the French are weary of us, and
will fight alone; when we gave Money for a fleet and
had Peace without it! Now we are the support of the
Crown of France, England may be as necessary to France
as other countries, and so they may conquer us—The kingdom is ever safe when Money is in our purses; we may
have occasion to use it perhaps, to defend us against France—Must we give five millions more to have what we might have
had without it? Must Money be given both in War and
Peace? Concurrent aids were never before heard of, Money having been the foundation of our Grievances to raise
a standing army; the marine regiments paid to this day;
now, instead of five-pence, they take six-pence for their
quarters—France once would invade us, and now is our
friend. Still more men are raised; so many in a company
are, indeed, disbanded, but the officers remain. This
is your standing army, and it is Money still that maintains this army—Fifty per cent. upon our goods in France,
and yet the war with Holland upon account of Trade—Money for League, and no League, War and Peace—Moves to have the kingdom once free from taxes.
Sir Robert Howard.] Is sorry to hear this Question
moved for in the negative; this will utterly shiver all our
hopes in this Vote—Consider the arguments; "to maintain an ill Alliance"—We have brought about the French
Alliance to us, whilst united to Holland, and both navies
were against us—Religion is not the case, but interest—If Money be ill managed, any body may see it; he (as
Secretary to the Treasury) will give an account of it, and
ask no time to do it, Registers being all in order; the
Money all gone out to public uses—You must have the
nation poor if we have Peace, if we give no Money—What will the Dutch say to this negative? Will you
shake the King in it? You say the Papists have power;
by this you give more way yet to have it; they have
their Counsels to give the King by such a Vote: We are
going now to make a purchase, and before we get our
Religion and Properties by this purchase, we throw away
all by this Vote—He must be a God that can say,
"there shall be no enemies, and we shall have Peace;"
and yet we do so by this negative—Let not the word of
King and People be lost now—Seek ye first the kingdom of
Heaven, settle Religion, and all things will be added—Go in a parliamentary way for "Grievances" and "Religion," and think of this Vote last.
Mr Sacheverell.] Is one of those that think "giving
of Money" one of the greatest Grievances—It seems to
him, that those villainous Counsellors, that persuaded
the King to make this war, have deceived him in this
Speech; do not they know of the unpaid Taxes granted
the last Session, with the Prizes and the Customs? It
seems to him like the first design—These Gentlemen
would have only a Bank, that they may carry on their
design, and use you no more—He abhors it—It was said
before, "Give money, and Grievances shall be redressed"—This army is so insolent, that they may turn you
out of doors—If "redress of Grievances" be an argument for "Money," you will never want "Grievances"—Will you not heighten France, by giving more Money,
and make him more friends, that he may at last have
dominion at sea, which we now contend for? And, by
this negative, we may deliver ourselves both from France
and Rome.
Sir Eliab Harvey.] Giving of Money now is certainly
to ruin King and kingdom—Give Money, and you destroy the revenue of the nation, Wool—You are letting
the King of France be the Merchant of the whole world—By falling out with Spain, we spoil the best Trade we
have—He has kept one hundred men at work upon the
Woollen Manufacture, and now cannot keep one: Will
you set the Woollen Manufacture up in France?—Lose
the Straits trade, and you must land all your commodities at Marseilles, and bring them over land, and so
France and Holland will out-trade you, by the great expence we must be at by inland carriage.
Mr Bennet.] Both at home and abroad people would
be glad of this negative—He has much to do in the
world, and knows the poverty of the nation; but would
not have it thought that we are unable to raise the King
Money.
Sir William Coventry.] Is as unwilling to give Money
for the maintenance of this Alliance as any man, [it] being destructive both to trade and religion—Generally the
rigours in religion, in states, arise from interest rather
than religion; formerly Spain was more rigorous in
religion, and now France—Spain now assists Holland; and
France, by supporting the Pope, makes herself considerable amongst the Catholics—The Instructions to the
Pope's Nuntios, as the French Gazette informs him,
(he is privy to foreign affairs no farther) are, not to hinder the progress of the French army: France would not
let the conquered towns in Holland have Articles, unless
they accepted Priests, and gave maintenance for them—He thinks not That religion the interest of the House,
nor the War; we may be at war with Protestants, but
hopes never against Protestantism—The Dutch are formidable against your growing rich, but, since the Act
of Navigation, we have grown upon them, not they
upon us; they have only gained upon the nutmeg trade
since Amboyna business, but, in all other parts of trade we
grow upon them; their East-India trade, notwithstanding
those prizes, comes not to above five per cent.—It is
vain to think that the European trade can be maintained
by us by a war; only in Guinea, or other barbarous
countries, we may gain a port, but not for European trade—What probability is there, if we beat the Hollander, that
we shall get all trade? But it is industry and parsimony,
and by underfelling us—Suppose we beat them, what
think you they will be beaten hither? The last summer
but one we beat them low enough, but with all the invitation that could be given them, few of them came
hither; you may beat them into France, Sweden, or
Denmark; any where but here—Who will come to us,
thus divided, as we are, in jealousies, and fears of Popery? He that knows least, has most fears—A stranger
knows not what you have in your heart—We all know
that we shall not stay if Popery prevail—Pray God they
will let us go away alive, considering the Inquisition!—He has said enough to give reason for his negative for
"Money"—The Hollanders, in all reason, had better
have no quarrels. But upon the King of France's account, if we leave him, his difficulties will increase—It
is strange that we and Holland should be divided by one,
whose interest is destructive to us both—When we go by
ourselves, we may have a fair peace in all probability, going
upon a pure national account—Would not have it out of
the House's power to assist the King—He is not so confident of the Hollanders good-nature in a peace, but
doubts not, but upon Money granted upon good
grounds, we may be sure of a peace; yet for all this
he is not for Money—But as for Sacheverell's Question, of "not giving for so many months," he is not
for it; for in that interim we may be beaten; but if
thus, "we find no cause to give Money, untill the
Grievances of the nation be redressed."
Sir Henry Capel (fn. 9) .] If this war was for the maintenance
of the Crown and Nation, would venture all he has, life
and fortune, for it: He is descended from one that
lost his life for maintaining of both—Would know how
we came into this war, before we give Money to it—Is not for giving Money for the war, but not for a negative, "no Money;" and doubts not but the King will
redress our Grievances.
Sir Robert Carr.] Moves to proceed in a parliamentary
way—Proceed to your "Grievances," (if you have any)
and the King will give you redress. (Laughed at.)
Lord Cornbury.] Here is now a Question proposed,
and he agrees with Coventry's Question—It will be wondered that he should be against "Money"—Some men
have been under prejudice for giving votes, and that may
possibly be a Grievance—All he has is from the King,
and he would willingly give it again, if he calls for it; he
has begged for the King, and wanted for him, and
would willingly do so again—Carr says, "If there are
any Grievances;" he wonders at it, when so many have
been opened to you—The last tax could not be anticipated; besides the customs, excise, and the prizes—Some cannot get their money due to them, glad to be
content with half; those that have interest get all—Would vote, "that Money be not considered till Grievances are redressed."
Mr Garroway.] Ruin of Trade, loss of Religion, no
Grievance! Papists threaten us in the very Lobby, to
our faces; soldiers raising money; a war; the French
King broke the Pyrenean league, conquered Lorrain, the
King of Spain's country, en passant, and this a good
Alliance! And now the Question, whether Money or no
Money to maintain this league, and no enquiry made
into what remains of what we have already given—Lands turned into our hands, (as it is his good fortune)
and no Grievances neither! As to our sea war, the French
give us money, and they come to see how we fight for
it—One clapped up in the Bastile for fighting (fn. 10) —Where
will there be an end of the French conquests? If any
fleet be to be set out, we may do it time enough—Moves, "That till this tax be expired," (which will be
August first) "we may give no Money;" and then, if
occasion be, would give, but till then, would not.
Sir John Hotham.] Comes from a place so impoverished, [Beverley,] that it is impossible to raise money there,
and that place is much impoverished by soldiers already;
they quarter there in private houses, and one person [was]
fined, because he would not render his house and bed to
the soldiers—You have now an army, and it is grown a
principle amongst them, (an ill nursery for young men)
that Parliaments are roots of Rebellion, and Magna
Charta sprung out of them—Money is the way to continue these persons, and no Money, to disband them;
therefore is "against Money."
Sir John Shaw.] A person [being] dangerously wounded by a soldier at Colchester, the Mayor sent for a commission officer; when he examined the matter, and heard
the information, he desired the soldier's sword to be taken from him, which was done. An order came (from
Lord Ogle) to remove some out of each company for
France. The officer desired a discharge of the soldier,
his company growing mutinous to have him released;
the Captain confessed he feared mischief; he replied, "if
the Captain raised the soldiers he should see they did no mischief"—There was soon after an uproar in the streets, and
the soldiers came up to the Sessions-hall, with their muskets charged with powder and ball, which they presented
against the Gentlemen upon the bench; he would have
spoke, but the soldiers hallooed and made a noise, and
he was constrained to adjourn the Sessions, and the soldier committed escaped, though the jail [was] not broke.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Gave account of several
cashiered for misdeameanor, and punished.
Sir Robert Thomas.] Complains of several Popish Officers in Lord Ogle's regiment; ill Counsellors of law about his Majesty, who have justified the robbing us of
our properties, till we are made so poor, that we cannot
defend ourselves, and then is the time to bring in
Popery.
Mr Attorney Finch.] Is of opinion that there are
Grievances, and never expects such a healthful Constitution in the Body Politic, that shall be so equally
poised, as to be without them—"Not to give Money"
is at this time a Grievance not to be redressed in many ages—This is an English war, and no other—They are not
afraid, in Flanders, of the Protestant Religion, because
joined with a Protestant army—Would treat this matter
with more temperament; surely, for the honour of our
Prince, we must not treat crowned Heads, here, in alliance with us, as if they were our enemies—If we have
but good trade, the Dutch presently make war with that
Prince, in alliance [with us,] that we may have no trade
with their enemy; commends much the piety of this,
but sees not the policy—You are now in war, and you
carry the purse—Supposing it such, and the alliance, as is
said, yet in the condition we are in, it is absolutely necessary to support the war to the utmost of our power, the
King being engaged with a Prince who has punctually observed articles—Suppose us weary of the war, yet the
King of France is actually engaged with us, and has remitted many articles that would have obliged the King
to much expence—The war we cannot get out of with a
Prince loving his honour above his life; you may make
it an unprosperous and a ruinous war, but you cannot
make it cease to be a war; you may dishearten all the
soldiers that are to go over, but if you make the chariot
wheels drive heavily, yet they must drive on, if the
King please to command it—If that war was now to
be made, the discourse would be most seasonable; but
now will be ruinous, and wiser men than he think so—The King may engage in a War, but when his people
shall storm him out of it, the hour will come that his
enemies wish for; for the Dutch will now be upon greater
terms, having ever desired such a storm as the King could
not allay—It is all one to the King whether his designs
be checked at home or abroad—Is this agreeable to this
House, wherein there is scarce a man that has not bled
for the Crown? Moves, that whatever is grievous, either in Church or State, we may go upon, with all calmness and temper, and to do the King that honour (if with
submission he may say it) that one day may be for
"Grievances," and the other for "Supply," hand in
hand, that the world may see you neither neglect the
King nor yourselves.
Mr Powle.] We see Priests daily admitted into the
King's presence, and our Address (as he is informed) is
but lately sent into Ireland—A Papist Major-General acting in disguise—Has not one told you (Sir James Smith)
that he sat in a Council of War when the military Articles were agreed to? Pressing, against so many Statutes,
may reach your Members, and the Peers themselves;
and this army has done nothing but the famous Expedition from Blackheath to Yarmouth (fn. 11) —Shall never think
that Privilege of Parliament is not violated as long as a
Privy Counsellor sits in the Chair (fn. 12) —Members represented to the King in an ill sense for what they have said
here—He that was the contriver of the Declaration (fn. 13) , made
Lord Privy Seal, the third office in the kingdom, and
another (fn. 14) , as much concerned, made Chief Governor of
Scotland—This is to bring in Popery in triumph—Would
be glad to see promises made in Parliament, once kept in
intermissions of Parliament—He cannot go so far in the
Question proposed, as not to give any farther Supply till
ten months; but at this time cannot give his consent to
Supply.
Sir Thomas Meres.] With the length and expatiating
[on] an argument oftentimes the edge of a thing is lost—You will be sure to have Grievances, if that be doctrine, that Money must be given when Grievances are
redressed—If that Money, twice given in a Session, be
not unparliamentary, yet there are twelve hundred thousand pounds granted in a year—Has seen so often Grievances pressed, and so seldom redressed, that he now has
little hopes of having it; but it may be answered, we
will be redressed first; but have we not seen people's spirits
are a little wearied with long sitting, and that a few redressed
pleases us? In short we are the best-natured House of
Commons that ever sat—Consider what we do about
Popery, in the Lords House, by putting out Popish
Lords, a matter of inheritance, which will have Conference upon Conference, and we under great disadvantages—It was said, that Popery was but the handle for the
ambitious and covetous, in 1641, to raise sedition—When we speak of a standing army, we are answered,
"Cannot the King raise what men he pleases?" and to
the French league, "Cannot the King make leagues?"
Yet the Gentleman said, "the King cannot have
Money without the House of Commons—What war
can the King make, when the House of Commons shall
storm him out of it?" To which thus he answers: In such
great wars as this, and in most wars, the Kings of
England have advised with their Parliaments; believes that
it might be the King's intention to do so, however advised
to the contrary; we owned not the war in the last tax—The King may make war, but the House of Commons
may or may not give Money—Other Grievances there
are, as evil Counsellors; to which it will be said, "Cannot the King chuse his own servants?" And that is
plausible. Should these things be amended, he would give
"Money."
Mr Stockdale.] If we were able, as we are not, it is not
now a time to give at all—The Question is a single
Question, "Whether Money or no Money, till this tax
be out?"
Sir Thomas Lee.] This Question is for the King's service now, more than ever—Has great reason to believe,
that the King needs it not; because one has told you
[Mr Attorney] "that the King of France has released
several chargeable articles in the treaty"—As for the carrying on the war, we look upon it as a Grievance. "The
Parliament may talk, say the people, but still you give
Money"—Fears not proroguing for not giving; but if you
show yourselves [willing] to give "no Money," the King
will be restored to the affections of his people, when they
shall see that "Grievances" are redressed without "giving
of Money."
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Nothing is so wise nor so obligatory to the King, as to redress "Grievances" without "giving Money;" but as far as he is Master of his
own life, he had rather lose it, than you should pass this
Negative Vote.
Mr Garroway.] Coventry tells you how the French
have conquered; but now the case is altered, it might
have been wished the Tripartite League (fn. 15) had stood—Is sorry for the Attorney's expression, of being "stormed
out of a League"—The Prince of Orange will be a
good Advocate to keep the Hollanders in war with the
French, that he may be continued General; but would
never have such a peace as the French shall assign us—We are more put to the blush about redress of Grievances,
than for any other thing; those that have been the promisers have been the opposers—The proroguing will
do us as much good as it did us a prejudice, and, if need
be, we may be suddenly sent for again—Is for the Question.
Mr Howe (fn. 16) .] Is dissatisfied with the person that is to
have the Money in his hands, the Speaker.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Cannot apprehend such an imminent necessity of giving, as Sollicitor North says there
is—The remaining Taxes, the Customs, the Revenue, and Prizes, and for one reason above all, viz.
four hundred thousand pounds given away in donatives—Does not repine at the King's Bounty, but apprehends
no necessity of giving by it—Thinks that the Counsels,
now prevalent, design the ruin of the King, the Duke, and
the kingdom; the Irish Grievances not sent away above
ten days ago; Priests and the Lord Almoner at Court;
fifteen hundred and two thousand guineas given to officers disbanded; thirteen, fourteen, twenty Popish officers
taken in, and the French regiments filled with them,
and some ordered not to muster, to prevent discovery—Acts of Parliament can do nothing; as these men have,
notwithstanding, taken up arms—It looks like treason
in levying War without commission—When he was at
Paris, the Holland Ambassador told him, "You have
broken your faith with the Bankers; France an absolute
Monarchy, and you a limited one; no help nor advantage
by your Alliance"—The Chancellor is Keeper of the King's
Conscience, and the Treasurer, of his Word—The Bankers broken, and Exchequer shut up, in January, and
we to meet in March—They have persuaded the King to
ask to pay the Bankers, and they are already paid, by the
sale of the fee-farm rents, six hundred thousand pounds—Subsidy, Excise, Law-Bill by this—Where shall we find
treasure to supply these exorbitances—These evil Counsellors intercept all the King's goodness; no good is to
be hoped for till they be removed—It was insinuated that
the last Supply would give us Peace in a few months;
we then considered not the War, nor the Alliance—Our
duty to the King overcame all those enquiries; and since
there appears no want of Money, put the Question at the
largest extent, as first moved.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Cannot imagine that such consequences as are alleged will attend the putting the Question,
as penned, with the words retained in—Is persuaded that,
if an effectual course be taken, as things change, men's
minds will change, and is not so terribly afraid of it;
nor so dismal a Vote but as happy.
Sir Edward Dering.] By whose hands are we tied but
by our own? Should we be tied by any other, we cannot
go back with honour, nor forward with safety—Would
leave the words of the "eighteen months tax" out of the
Question, without which we can neither make an honourable Peace, nor safe War.
Mr Boscawen.] Would make no other use of the Vote
but in order to Peace—The great Grievances have been
by pretence of the War, the rest but trivial: The War, at the
first, was against the advice of the whole body of the Merchants, only some particular men that had losses—Thinks
the Peace a good Peace, and the Triple League much for
the satisfaction of the nation—Some trifling injuries were
done to the Merchants at Surinam; as if a man, with a
flea on his forehead, would strike it off with a beetle—Would make use of that Vote, that we might have a
Peace—It is better to deny an aid to the War than to
meddle with a Peace—We never deny Money when
there is a just occasion for it; it were to deny self-preservation.
Sir William Coventry.] Hears it said, "that the King
cannot go off with honour from his alliance with France;"
and what then shall we say of the Triple Alliance, that the
peace of Christendom was so much concerned in, so solemn,
as to be sworn to by the King of France, and registered
in the Parliament of Paris by that King's command, but
yet renounced by him, because not consistent with the
good of his people—Munster made a war with our
Money; it was not for the good of his subjects, it seems,
and he made peace with Holland—The same did Brandenbourg—The King of France, by the Pyrenean treaty,
was not to assist the King of Portugal; it was not for the
good of his people, and he broke that treaty—Princes
have ever done it for the good of their people, and if we
live by another rule than they do, we shall have the worst
of it—Now has the King of France kept treaty with us,
as is said? Knows not what the private articles were, but
surely they were made unfortunately, that we should have
no share in this conquest—Has he kept his word with
us? He was to send thirty ships for our sixty; had that
conjunction been as it should be, they would have
fought—Has heard but of two Captains killed in the
French fleet, and one died of an unfortunate disease (the
Pox)—Thinks we had no advantage by their company.
One unfortunate Gentleman did fight, (Martel) and because that Gentleman said, (as he has heard) "That the
French did not their duty (fn. 17) ," he is clapped up into the
Bastile. "His own squadron," he said, "deserted him;"
his Captains said, "upon secret orders, which they had."
D'Estrees sent positive orders not to fight, unless by word
of mouth, or by writing; and if that man that brought
them, had been knocked on the head, no orders could
have been had; "no regard to be had to Prince Rupert's
signals," (which is the custom at sea) "D'Estrees must, by
a Council of war, know whether the Prince's orders were
good orders or no"—Could a fleet coming with such
orders, ever be serviceable to us? Thinks it better
we had no fleet—Thinks not so highly of the Dutch, nor
meanly of ourselves, but that we may do well without
the King of France—An indifferent Casuist will say,
having been so used, that we are absolved from an
alliance so ill maintained—The interest of the King of
England is to keep France from being too great on the
Continent, and the French interest is to keep us from being
masters of the Sea—The French have pursued that interest
well—Martel has fought too much, or said too much,
which is his misfortune—Moves to insert in the Question,
"unless it shall appear that the obstinacy of the Dutch shall
make a Supply necessary."
Mr Garroway.] Spain says, "Have peace with England, and war with all the world"—We lost sixteen hundred ships in the last Spanish war, great and small—As for
Duncombe's argument of building ships futurely, Money
may be had; the East-India Company had it at four per
cent. for the prizes—You may have a short Bill for the
remainder of the last Supply, which is not at all engaged
to any other use.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Doubts not but "Redress of
Grievances" will alarm the Dutch more than any Supply we can give.
Resolved, "That this House, considering the present condition of the Nation will not take into any farther Debate,
or Consideration, any Aid, or Supply, or Charge upon the Subject, before the times of payment of the eighteen months
Assessment, &c. [granted last Session] be expired; unless [it shall
appear, that] the obstinacy of the Dutch [shall] render it necessary; nor before this Kingdom be effectually secured from the
dangers of Popery, and Popish Counsels and Counsellors, and
the [other] present Grievances be redressed."
Mr Powle reports from the Committee the Address to be presented to his Majesty, concerning the Match between his Royal
Highness the Duke of York, and the Princess of Modena;
[which was agreed to by the House, and is as follows:]
"WE your Majesty's most humble and loyal Subjects, the
Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, being full of
an assurance of your Majesty's [gracious] intentions to provide
for the establishment of Religion, and the preservation of your
People in peace and security; and foreseeing the dangerous consequences which may follow the Marriage of his [Royal] Highness the Duke of York with the Princess of Modena, or any other
[person] of the Popish religion, do hold ourselves bound in conscience and duty to represent the same to your [sacred] Majesty;
(not doubting but those constant testimonies [that] we have given
[your Majesty of our true and loyal Affections] to your sacred Person, will easily gain a belief, that these our humble Desires proceed from hearts [still] full of the same Affections towards your sacred Majesty, [and] with intentions to establish your [Royal]
Government upon those true supports of the Protestant religion,
and the Hearts of your People) with all humility, desiring your
Majesty to take the same into your Princely Consideration, and
to relieve your Subjects from [those] fears and apprehensions
[which at present they lie under] from the progress [that] has
been made in that Treaty.
"We do therefore humbly beseech your Majesty to consider,
That if this Marriage do proceed, it will be a means to disquiet
the minds of your Protestant Subjects at home, and to fill them
with endless jealousies and discontents, and will bring your Majesty [into] such Alliances abroad, as may prove highly prejudicial, if not destructive, to the interest of the very Protestant
Religion itself.
"That we find, by sad experience, [that] such Marriages
have increased and encouraged Popery in this kingdom, and
given opportunity to Priests and Jesuits to propagate their opinions, and seduce great number of your [Protestant] subjects.
"And we do already observe, how much that party are animated with the hopes of this Match, which were lately discouraged by your Majesty's gracious concessions in the last Meeting
of this Parliament.
"That we greatly fear, this may be an occasion to lessen the
affections of the people to his Royal Highness, who is so nearly
related to the Crown, and whose honour and esteem we desire
may be always entirely preserved.
"That, for another age, at least, this kingdom will be under
continual apprehensions of the growth of Popery, and the danger of the Protestant religion.
"Lastly, we consider, That this Princess, having so near a
relation and kindred to many eminent persons of the Court of
Rome, may give them great opportunities to promote their designs, and carry on their practices amongst us; and, by the
same means, penetrate into your Majesty's most secret councils,
and more easily discover the state of the whole kingdom.
"And finding that, by the opinions of very [many] learned
men, it is generally admitted, that such treaties and contracts
by proxy are dissolvable, of which there are several instances to
be produced, we do, in all humbleness, beseech your Majesty to
put a stop to the Consummation of this intended Marriage.
"And this we do the more importunately desire, because we
have not, as yet, the happiness to see any issue of your Majesty's
that may succeed in the government of these Kingdoms; which
blessing we most heartily pray Almighty God, in his due time,
to bestow upon your Majesty and these Kingdoms, to the unspeakable joy and comfort of all your loyal Subjects, who desire
nothing more than to continue under the reigns of your Majesty,
and your [Royal] Posterity for ever."
[Resolved, That this Address be presented to his Majesty,
and that the Lords of the Privy Council, Members of this
House, be desired to attend his Majesty, to know his pleasure
when he will be attended therewith.]
[November 1. omitted.]