Tuesday, January 29.
Debate on the King's Speech.
Sir John Knight.] 'Tis in vain for us to undertake to
preserve that which cannot be preserved; the Spaniards
seeming to decline our proposal of delivering up towns for
the security of the forces that we shall send over to their
assistance. Therefore, before we proceed any farther, I
would have information from the King's Ministers, how
the Treaty stands betwixt us and the Spaniards, and what
alliances have been made since our last meeting.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The King tells you, in his
Speech, "That the alliances he has made cannot fail of
their end in the preservation of Flanders, unless prevented by the want of due assistances to support those
alliances, or by the small regard the Spaniards have to
their own preservation." 'Tis certain, that so much the
greater France is, we are so much the less able to support our allies. The Spaniards tell you more of their
forces than they are, and that they will bring them into
the field in May; which they cannot do till August.
They tell you that their army is 30,000 men, when
they are not 20,000. You may refuse to assist the Spaniards, if you will; but the King hopes you will not.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I will add only this to
what Coventry has said; that the King has found, beyond the general remissness of Spain, their unreadiness
to comply with what he has offered towards securing
their towns, and they have not answered expectation.
Securing their towns may go a great way towards their
safety, and ours. The greater the danger is, it ought
to be so far from being a remora, as to put spurs to our
speedy resolutions in this great affair.
Sir William Coventry.] I go not about to defend Spain
in their dealing with us. They may be faulty enough;
but I am heartily sorry we have so long neglected
Spain, that they are so low, and France so high, that
they can do nothing for their own preservation. With
the same truth of heart that I spoke to you and God
Almighty, in May last, I will speak now. The King,
in his Speech, is pleased to tell us, "If we cannot obtain an honourable Peace, by fair means he will endeavour to do it by War." But pray God this be not such
a Peace as we would not have! What opinion the House
was of, in May last, as to this Peace, will appear in the
last Addresses to his Majesty. The reasons in it were
pretty fully expressed; and I am confirmed in my belief
since, that, considering the height the King of France
is now in, 'tis impossible for me to believe there can be
such a Peace made with him as will give us any security. Should it so happen (as the foreign Gazettes tell
us of) that there should be a Peace, such a one as the
King of France should think good; because it is done
by the Confederates, and Holland, it is not our Peace.
This swelling monarchy of France is founded on maxims
of greatness and action; and the better bounds we make
him, to prevent attacking Holland, he may the sooner
fall upon us, if he come once to have rest, and be fitted
for another flight. I know the difference between a Continent and an Island. 'Tis not every Peace will do our
business. Some piece of ground, it may be, will be left
to Spain in Flanders, and the King of France got quite
out of Holland, by this Peace; but our business here is
England; not Spain, nor Holland, is our business only.
As for Spain, considering the poverty he is in, he may
be thought very unwise, if he does not accept of a truck
with France, for something he can hold, for what he
cannot hold. 'Tis only the consideration of the House
of Austria that makes him hold what he has left in
Flanders. Is England, therefore, well? Does France
want ports, or men? The poor port of Ostend is of no
use to invade England, or Ireland. France has plenty of
ports besides; but I apprehend still the safety of England. Heretofore, as in 1670, Flanders was so near approaching the French territories, that, if any disorders
happened in France, Spain might have marched with an
army, even into the very bowels of France; as the Duke
of Parma did in the time of the League. That kept the
French in awe, for that army was ever watching to disturb France at the very heart. Nothing, in this great
affair, will do us any good, but keeping such an army in
Flanders; that, by its vicinity to the provinces of France,
we may have opportunities to disturb them; and, in consequence, by France disgorging Cambray and St Omers,
we may see Flanders put into such a condition that Spain
may be able to march into the bowels of France, if they
continue to disturb their neighbours. Less than reducing the French King to the Pyrenean Treaty, will
not do our business. The King, in his Speech, seems
to endeavour a Peace, but cannot without force. I fear
to obtain that Peace, now a treating, by War, which
cannot be done by mediation. For the Pyrenean Treaty
I would do any thing; but for such a Peace as we hear
of, I will not give twelve-pence. Our danger is nearer
by it than ever. The French, by that Treaty, may disgorge a town or two in Flanders, and gain a kingdom
by it. The King, in his Speech, is not fully pleased to
explain his intentions in that matter. He tells us of
"ninety capital ships, and 40,000 land-men, as requisite for undertaking this war for the preservation of Flanders." I confess I am not able to speak to this matter;
for I know not what "capital ships" means. Formerly, when I was conversant in the Navy, we went by rates
and guns; but if his Majesty means third-rate ships,
(The Speaker informed him,"that none under fourthrates were called capital ships.") I think there is no danger of the French attacking us by sea. Sicily employs
their navy sufficiently, and I do not believe the King of
France will bring his fleet from thence to attack us and
the Dutch in our seas. There is a necessity of our strength
at sea, to secure our plantations, the French having already a squadron of ships in the plantations. As long
as the French fleet shall be detained at Messina, the Dutch
are hired for Sicily. The main stress of our matter is to
hinder the French from universal trade, all the world
over; they being an enemy to us, and all Christendom.
By this means, we shall cut off all that, and that makes
me startle and wonder (I crave pardon for saying so)
at that expression in the King's Speech, where he proposes "a War with France," and yet "a continuation
of the imposts upon wines, &c. to be settled." It looks
to me strangely I'll not trouble you often, and therefore pardon me if I am long now) And for "the
40,000 men for the land army," it looks as if we intended such an army as to undertake this great task
ourselves, and support it by ourselves. Those Generals
of all the Confederates, who have been so long coping
with the French Generals, in point of conduct, have had
their countries wasted, and their towns taken before
their faces. I hope the officers the King chuses will
not be men to learn, before they set up their trade; else
I fear they will lose stock and block, and all. The
King is pleased to tell us farther, "that, although the
Dutch shall do their parts, yet we shall need at least 30
or 40,000 men on ours, and their dependences." I fancy
their train of artillery and dependences (the Northern
gentlemen, I hope, will pardon the phrase) is, as when
a traveller in the North asks how far 'tis to his inn; they
tell him, a mile and a way-bit; and the Southern men
find this way-bit as long as the mile The contingences
to 30,000 men is a kind of a way-bit. All this great
work may be as well done, if a good body of forces be
sent into Flanders, and well paid and disciplined, so as
not to dare to take an apple, or a nut, without paying
for it. But let us consider how seldom, of our own
strength, we have done any thing, and what honour we
have gained by being auxiliaries to others in former
times. It may be, when we have landed upon our enemies, we have got something we could not hold, and
the men did not what they went for. Queen Elizabeth
sent four regiments, as auxiliaries to "the distressed
States," as then they called themselves, under Sir John
Norris; and so, more and more, as history tells us. This
gave no jealousy among those they were sent to; but
when we got footing on the Continent, they grew jealous
that we came to disunite, instead of helping them; and
they gave us maritime towns instead. When Cromwell
helped the King of France in Flanders, (he did a good
thing in a bad time) he sent no general army, but auxiliaries. When I was a boy, I remember to have heard
that Hobson, the famous carrier of Cambridge, being
overtaken on the road by some gentlemen galloping
hard on, and he going his own pace, says he, "Gentlemen, if you'll not ride softly, I shall be at my journey's end before you; for you'll either tire your horses,
or break your necks." This great business against France
must be of continuance. By our turning the French commodities on their hands, that we have used to consume so
prosusely, their people will not endure what he imposes
upon them. When their trade is gone, they will rebell.
I speak now in a dialect not used by me here. All this
manner of proceeding looks as if France had still some
friends amongst us here; but whoever has been partial
to France, the King sees that the advice of this House is
true and faithful, and that nothing is safe for the nation
but alliances against him. Those that have been partial
to France, see that he must be cut short, if we go on; and
therefore they put the King upon making such great demands, in his Speech, as will not probably be closed with
by this House, and so we must go into the French Alliance
again: Thus tiring the Horse before the journey's
end. And I pray God, they put not these great demands into the King's Speech for that very purpose.
The King's eyes are now opened, and I hope he may
see more and more, to reduce the French to those bounds
that may be safe for us. But any Peace driven at, short
of the Pyrenean Treaty, will not do our business, and I
would have a Confederation so made, and that we
think of a method that the nation may bear it, and that
we may show the King what we are able to bear. That,
and no other.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] I hear arguments against the
Treaty the King has made, and all this while the Treaty
is not known, what it is. I am not at liberty to tell
you what the Treaty is, and I believe the Gentleman
that spoke last cannot tell you. If it be that Treaty the
Gentleman speaks of, then this Peace the King has
made is not that Treaty. But thus much I can tell
you, that if the King do procure a Peace it will be
such a one as will secure all Europe, and this Nation.
As to the number of ships, and land men, if you have
a number superior to the King of France, he will not
fight with you, but keep close upon the advantage of
encampments, as his custom is; and you must have
more men to besiege than to defend. If England and
Holland undertake to block up his Ports, you must
have yet more ships, since France has 120 or 130
capital ships, and if he ruins all your Trade in the Medeterranean, you cannot be there and in the Plantations
too. If your number of ships be more than the French;
you may do something. What De Ruyter lost (fn. 1) , set
up the courage and reputation of the French. As for
the landmen, I understand not that conclusion that we
should send a single Army. But you will have a fleet without landmen! You will put all our Coasts in appre
hensions. Chatham's misfortune put the nation to
100,000 l. charge, by the alarm the Dutch gave upon
our Coasts. The Navy must have 20,000 men, besides
the Ports and Islands, and all this not intended for a
land Army. Do you intend to govern all the King
of Spain's fleet for him, and his Army? But I thought
the observation was, that the King should get money
by it. But the Question is, whether the King shall
conduct it? There is no profit that he is able to get
by it. Either you must think that he understands it
not, or that he will make benefit by it. Accounts shall
be given of the money, and as often called for as you
please. There is nothing to be gained, only the King
is to be trusted. The King tells you of "the imposts upon wines, as an easy tax." If there be wine in
the world besides French wine, it will be drank here,
and so there will certainly be importation. In conclusion, if it be not found necessary, the King will not
employ the money.
Sir William Coventry.] Something seems to be inferred
from what I said, which I desire to purge myself of.
Either we must give money, hand over head, or we
must go by some steps and calculations to make up
a sum, to bring the King's ministers upon the occasion
of giving us some measures to go by. In general discourse, 'tis said to be a Treaty for some little spot of
ground the French are to give back to the Spaniards
in Flanders. But I say again, that less than reducing
things to the state of the Pyrenean Treaty will not do
our business. Our whole hopes lie at stake in this, and
if a bad use be made of this money we are to give,
we are ruined. I move for no Peace, but what will do
our business. If less than the Pyrenean Treaty will do
it, I desire to see it, for as yet it is unknown to me.
Mr. Powle.] I hope it will never be understood that,
when we desired a War with the French King, it was a
rash and inconsiderate one. What that War is intended,
I hope will be declared, that satisfaction may be given
to the House. When we enter into a War, I hope
we shall consider the end. We are told "'tis to procure a safe and honourable Peace;" but I would know
what that is. If it be for such a Peace as shall oblige
the King of France to restore all his acquisitions, and
be reduced to what he holds in France, on the terms
of the Pyrenean Treaty; under the condition the French
are now in, we cannot expect such a Peace. But I
fear this Peace is to leave the French King what he
has conquered, or in a condition to get again what he
shall give up, when he pleases. Or, in consequence, so
to divide the Confederates, as to divide them totally.
Such a Peace as this we ought to detest. The French
King knows what that Peace is, proposed to the Spaniards and Confederates, and why it should be a secret to this House, I know not. In the next place,
what assistances we shall have in this War, is darkly
expressed in the King's Speech, where he tells us not
what those Alliances are that he has made. We know not
one Article relating to it, and why this House should
be kept thus in the dark, and foreign Ministers know
it, I understand not. We are told that the Spaniards
are not forward enough in the Alliances. Unless they
be comprized in the league, I know not why we should
give any money to support it. The War may be
left upon us and Holland. 'Tis fit we consider what
way we should support the Alliances, whether by land
or naval forces. We have thought it advantageous
to do it by sea, and help them at land by our money—Like a man skilled at his rapier, who yet will fight
with cudgels, and has his head broke. The number
of ships must be according to what we can fit out.
The French fleet cannot be in the Mediterranean, and
the Ocean all at a time; and I suppose a less number
of ships may serve than is proposed. I know not the
use of landmen abroad; but I am sure they will cause
suspicion at home. By an account, at a moderate estimate, these ships and men will cost a million to fit
but. I would not begin the War at such a rate as soon
to be weary of it. But when I see no use of these landmen, I am sure they will be discouragements to us.
We have had the ill fortune to appropriate small sums
of money to the uses we gave them, but vast sums
never. Whilst we give small sums, there will be still
recourse to Parliaments for more, but giving of great
sums will make Parliaments useless. A great sum we
are like to give, and I would see some grounds and
reasons of entering into this War. In H. IV. and H.
Vth's time, they subjected Treaties and War to Parliament, and now we would only know what is done by
way of satisfaction to our Addresses. I desire to see
things well at home to our satisfaction, and I shall then
be as forward as any man here to support the Treaties
and Alliances.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] All War is made for
Peace, &c.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] I am for giving a Supply to
support these Alliances. If they are within any tolerable
compass of reason, I would rather give money in the
dark, than not farther them. As for the "ninety
ships" demanded in the King's Speech, and "40,000
men, with their dependences;" this will amount to
200,000 l. a month, for thirteen months. The thing
is not to be supported, and it will take a good time
to say when such a fleet shall swim at sea. Let us not
over-measure the King of France. This great Tyrant has
a great navy, but is not proportionable in men. He
is extremely put to it, to fit out fifty capital ships.
When he joined with us against Holland, we saw the
bottom of what he had. He had few elsewhere then,
and Holland had double, and more, at sea than he. As
to the fear of invading us in the Channel, he has not
one port that can receive a fourth rate ship, and from
Brest he must have two winds to bring him hither. That
is our security, that the French have no port for a body
of a fleet; their ports are only for a privateering way.
So that in our conjunction with Holland, a few light
frigates will serve to secure the Bay of Biscay only,
and for the Charante and Bourdeaux, a Squadron will
serve. Forty capital ships of ours, and forty Dutch,
may so top him, that he may set up a privateering
trade, but can never hurt you. My design is, that
we may have such a number of ships, and keep within
such a compass, as to maintain about 15 or 20,000
men, which, added to the Dutch, with English pay,
would stop the French progress, and endanger to beat
them out of Flanders. I would have it this way rather
than upon our own account. In the last Dutch War
the Committee of Miscarriages was troubled with enquiries, and no fruit of it. If they be thus joined, and
disposed of into several stations, there will be little occasion of Miscarriages, and the War may be carried on
with pleasure to the King, and satisfaction to our interest.
I will say a word of the league with Holland, for the
preservation of Flanders, and the complaint of the remissness of Spain. I know not Holland, nor Spain, in
this great affair; I am an Englishman. We hear of a
project sent to the King of France, for restitution of seven
or eight towns in Flanders, and his retaining Burgundy,
and that the delivering up Tournay is only the difference
in the Treaty; and is all this stir of 40,000 men and
ninety capital ships for reducing Tournay only? Probably this league, or project, was sent into France without the consent of Holland. If this league be only to
this purpose, and farther, if it be short of the Pyrenean
Treaty, 'tis no wonder the Spaniard is uneasy in it.
The league is printed, and yet must be kept secret to
us. If any Treaty come short of the Pyrenean Treaty,
or that the Spaniard know not of it, can you blame him
for being shy of accepting it? This too of the Pyrenean
Treaty is what Holland would have had before. One
comes to treat with us from Spain, and we are private
and secret; would not that put us to a stop, were it our
own case? This Pyrenean Treaty will reconcile all
parties.
Sir Thomas Lee.] No wonder, if a Prince will not
take men into his towns, that Treaties are not finished.
No wonder Spain should be shy of it. This sticks with
me; take the King's Speech in the whole coherence
of it, it is War. But to provide for War to make an
undoing Peace—I would know, and be well understood, what we would have? I would not willingly have
the Kingdom undone by the same steps it had like once
to be, when we gave two millions and a half for a
Dutch War. This, by the greatness of the sum, drew
all the miseries of credit and a leisurely carrying on the
War. This looks like money given of no use for that
end you intend it, which is for Peace, and what will
signify your appropriating it then? I remember, in the
Dutch War, what we lost for want of intelligence. If
this must be a War, I hope the King will do something
towards it, out of his own revenue. I remember when
the Triple League was made, we paid both for making
and breaking it. Though this League is such a secret
to us, 'tis public in other places. It looks as if we
must purchase leave to help the Spaniards at more than
England can pay. If these be mutual Leagues, they
must be to answer every body as well as some body.
Methinks to make this great preparation to join with
Holland, and we and the Prince of Orange by ourselves,
I have great reason to suspect this to be a gin to leave
France yet in a better condition. I cannot take for
granted what Secretary Coventry said, "That the King's
income is upon other wines as well as French." The
Customers can tell you what comes in now upon the
new imposts of wines, that the King mentioned in his
Speech. Upon the whole, if by computation the War
will come to so much as the nation cannot bear, France
at the last will run us up.
Sir John Ernly.] I hear it said, "That this demand
of men and ships is so extravagant, as if it were to
bring you into a Peace with France, rather than a War."
But I hope we shall not submit to our enemies, for
Peace of ourselves. We talk as if we were making a
Smithfield bargain, as if there would be any profit, or
benefit, to the King by it. If there be an over calculation of men and ships, they will not be employed, and
so the charge will be less. The King desires you should
know the bottom of his heart. Compute the guard of
the Channel, and your Leeward Islands, and hindering
the French trade (without which you do nothing) besides Convoys for protection of your trade, and I see not
how all that can be done with less than is demanded.
Col. Birch.] You cannot forget that I once told you
a tale "of a crab-tree cudgel, and a glass bottle." I
put you in mind now that you must have a sharp sword
instead of a crab-tree cudgel. I know the King stood
in the place of mediator at Nimeguon, but I think that
is allowed, and the state of that case is gone. That is
sure not our turn now. This Debate was begun with
much weight by Sir William Coventry. He spoke plain
English, but I have not heard any thing spoken plain
since. 'Tis for want of understanding, or that I am not
worthy that those Gentlemen should descend to my capacity, who may inform us clearly if they please. At
the beginning of the War, I did what I could in this
place to have the Pyrenean Treaty kept on foot six or
seven years ago. The two main things are to begin and
end, and I see not yet to the contrary, but that less
than the Pyrenean Treaty is not sense. The honourable
person (Secretary Coventry) "had not yet in command"
he tells us, "to inform us of the particulars of these
Treaties." 'Tis strange, that, in a thing that concerns
every individual man of us, we should be left in the dark.
A strange thing has been hinted, "That so many Confederates will not be saved, nor suffer themselves to be
saved." But in this we must have satisfaction, before
we can go any farther, viz. What the Dutch will enter
into towards this matter. We lose our time in debating
till that thing be clear before us. He that is at bowls,
and winks before he delivers his bowl, will never make
a good cast. But when you have delivered your bowl,
you may wink, and the bowl will run to the mark. If
things be according to the town talk, there is a project
of a Peace sent into France—And that hour that towns
are given up according to that Treaty, and the League
of Confederacy broken, we are delivered up to the
great man, the French King. His tyrannical Government must have a hundred thousand men to walk his
Kingdom to keep all quiet, and to supply his Flanders
conquests—And that will keep Christendom in a Confederacy—I would know whether we intend this great
work seriously—If a man's neighbour, that has a mind to
buy, ask him three times more than the farm is worth,
we may easily believe that his neighbour never intended
to sell it. The King will trust us better when he sees we
have been longer in the right, before he saw it. There
was reason to adjourn these days we did to complete
these things, and I agree, therefore, that, unless these
things are now cleared, we adjourn the Debate
some days, and, when that is done, that we may see
all things in this great affair thoroughly, and that is
my Motion.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] If you stay till all Treaties
and Alliances are made, Flanders will be gone, and
some more of Holland too.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Birch would know of us
what is farther intended. There are several Treaties on
foot with great Princes, in their several natures and
concerns, but not to be reckoned upon in the main
Scheme. There is a great difference between the Pyrenean Treaty, and that which must be entered into
now. That was defensive, and all Trade prohibited—
Sir William Coventry.] I differ from Birch, in this
Motion, though I agree to all the rest he has said.
I would not delay this business at all by adjourning the
Debate; it will look cold. That may do well on the
King's part to be as Mediator, but the King is absolved
from that now. The King is under a difficulty, if
France should accept of that Treaty which was then
offered him. I would be glad to preclude that Treaty.
There is nothing more towards oiling the wheels to that
step than for the King to answer the French King with
saying, "My people dislike that Treaty, and, now
you have not taken me at my word, I must comply
with my people." Then was then, and now is now.
I therefore move that we may address the King not to
accept any thing in this Treaty, less than the Pyrenean
Treaty.
Mr Sacheverell.] I have been one of those that
have been long afraid of this Treaty. If France saw us
in good earnest, he would accept of Articles. Pray
God there be none betwixt the French and us, not to
be shown! We are called upon for a great number of
ships. They caunot be set out till Michaelmas next,
and what can that do? Where have you a Port in the
Mediterranean, if the Spaniards be not comprehended?
This advice is not laid upon a good foundation with the
King. Let us show the King that as long as the French
King stands as he is, with a great Army, Treasure, and
Navy, we cannot be safe. We must put him so far as
not to have a power to hurt us, which he will ever
have by this Treaty now on foot, which the Pyrenean
Treaty will prevent, with which you may be safe, and
without which you cannot.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I hope this Alliance, discoursed of,
is not so perfectly made, but that we may have it part
of our Treaty, that no Peace shall be made with France
till they be reduced to the terms of the Pyremean
Treaty 1660, which, at the Treaty of Aix la Chapelle,
was communicated to us. Sending some ships to join
Holland, and 40,000 l. per month, may occasion the
saving Flanders. We have reason to insist now on the
Pyrenean Treaty, because all the Treaties betwixt Spain,
France, the Empire, and Lorrain, end in the Pyrenean
Treaty 1660, or some other Treaty equivalent.
Sir Thomas Meres.] No man thinks but we look
farther than this Treaty now on foot. The end we
drive at, and all our former Addresses, were upon this
of the Pyrenean Treaty, though not upon our books
till now. Let not that come then as a new Motion,
for, in former Addresses, 'tis as high as can be. But
I will not oppose it if we come to particulars now.
Lord Cavendish.] I never apprehended greater danger
than by the project of this Treaty sent into France.
If any persons about the King have been formerly cold
in this Address, it will show them now, and if any
persons in the House agree to this Address now, it
will show them too; and that there may be no dispute of this Address, I move that we may stand by
the King in prosecuting this Address which we now
desire.
Sir Henry Capel.] Seconds the Motion.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] If you advise the King so
far as the Pyrenean Treaty, consider there is something
already done of a Treaty, and it may be executed to
day. The necessity of the thing suffers not many days,
and it may be this hour; but this moved for does not
support the King in the engagement he is entered into.
The King has offered to go farther with the Spaniards
than they are willing to go with him. This does not
the other business; an engagement is actually entered
into, and becomes an obligation that you have formerly
entered into, and this Treaty may be part of what you
desire, and I move that you will lay aside this Question.
Mr. Garroway.] If Secretary Williamson will tell us
what those conditions are that we are to support, he
tells us something, but perhaps we are to support we
know not what, that is Peace; but I would have it
known to the World, that you will never forsake the
Spaniards.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] The King has actually entered into an engagement for the preservation of Flanders, and these wishes from you of reducing things to
the terms of the Pyrenean Treaty do not at all forward
what is already upon your hands.
Sir William Coventry.] Least whilst we are debating
this matter, the King of France should accept of the
project sent to him of a Treaty, I would put a buckler
into the King's hands before that. I move not to preclude and debate of that hereafter, but I would not have
two hares on foot at once, and I move, as has been
mentioned, that the Prince of Orange may be a party
in the Address.
Resolved, That an Address be presented to his Majesty containing the thanks of the House, for expressing his great care
of the Protestant Religion, in imarrying of his Niece with a
Protestant Prince; and humbly to beseech his Majesty, that
his Majesty will be pleased to admit of no Treaty of Peace,
but such a one as leaves the French King in no better state
and condition to offend his neighbours, than he is left in by
the Pyrenean Treaty; (for the obtaining of which, his Majesty
shall never want the ready assistance and support of this House;)
and that neither ourselves, nor any other of the Allies, shall
hold any Commerce or Trade with the French King, or his
subjects, during the War.
[And a Committee was appointed to draw it up.]
Lord Obrien moved that the House should take into consideration the solemn burial of the late King, who had interment
without Christian Burial; and was seconded by several, and
'twas ordered that it should be considered next day, in the afternoon, after the solemnity of the day was over.
Wednesday, Jan. 30.
[In the afternoon. In a Grand Committee] On the late
King's interment.
Sir Philip Warwick in the Chair.
Sir John Ernly.] Moves that the manner of the late
King's burial may be desirable to the King; and I
believe 70,000 l. may do the business, and raise a monument, to remain to posterity, which may be of the value
of half that sum at least; and I hope that sum may do.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I find a general agreement of the thing. I would have something more expressed from the House in it, as to the money. The
monument to be equal, or superior to the late King's
ancestors, I would leave that to the King's pleasure,
and for so much as the show of one day would bear;
the rest of the money to be for the monument. The
King, in his intentions, had computed the prospect of
the charge at 80,000 l. If there be a monument, the
charge will not presently begin; it will be four years
in building.
Sir Charles Harbord.] It was the King's judgment to
place him at Windsor where Edward IV was buried; but
Henry VII. was buried at Westminster, and they both were
his Ancestors. The monument and covering cannot
come to less than 70,000 l. Two months assessment
added to the ship-money will do it; and let it be so
done as to have it the King's Act.
Sir John Birkenhead.] St Paul's is a place proper, if
one place be better than another in this island; and
for God's sake, let it be that.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] The great charge, and the
Wars we have been in almost ever since the King's Restoration, have hindered the King from doing it. This
is an act of great piety in this House, and I humbly
propose a procession, and a monument; and if we take
the King along with us, we do very well; since it is
our present to the King, and the son of him that you
would make the monument for. Therefore I would
have it left to the King's pleasure, both the monument
and solemnity.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If the King shall please to appoint the monument and solemnity to be at Windsor, a
much less sum than is propounded will serve. If there
must be a monument, I am rather for laying out the
money in that than in a procession, which will be over
in a day; and for him that died for the Protestant
religion I would have a monument left to posterity.
Mr Henry Seymour.] The late King told me, not long
before his death, "That if he would sacrifice religion,
and his friends, he might have his life saved." He did
not only desire, but command his son, the Prince, to
forgive them that took away his life, and to make his
Majesty to obtain his right through as little blood as
might be.
Col. Titus.] I cannot think that the King can take it
ill, if we present him our opinion as to the place and
solemnity of the burial. I think St Paul's the most convenient place for it. A great many of his Ancestors
have been buried there, and it was a Christian King
that built St Paul's; King Ethelbert, who was the first
Christian King—(I mean not the Most Christian King.)
I think St Paul's to be the most proper place.
Mr Wright.] I would keep close to the Order of
the House, and, with as much respect to the King as
may be, leave it all to him.
The Speaker then resumed the Chair, and Sir Philip Warwick reported from the Committee, That 'tis their opinion that
two months tax be raised, at the rate of 34,000 l. a month, for the
interment of his late sacred Majesty, and for erecting him a monument; the first month's payment to commence from the expiration of the present monthly tax, and the second the twelvemonth
after; and that both the place and the manner of burial of his
late martyred Majesty be left to the King's pleasure (fn. 2) .
Sir Thomas Lee.] Considering the Debate the other
day, I would charge land as little as may be, not knowing what occasion we shall have for it. The Imposition upon the law is expiring within a year or two, and
I would have that continued a little longer time, which
will do this business.
Sir John Birkenhead.] He was a King of us all, and
let us all share this charge; and I would have it laid
upon land.
The House agreed with the Committee.
[Ordered, That a Bill be brought in accordingly]
Thursday, January 31.
Complaint was made by Sir William Frankland, and others, of
the irregular proceeding of the Collectors of the Chimney-money,
and the sending for Gentlemen up to the Council-table to answer
accusations from them; especially in Mr Robert Pierpoint's
Case. (fn. 3)
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Suppose a Member of Parliament is Governor of a Garrison, and there be an accusation against him, (be it true or false) that he corresponds with the King's enemies; shall not the King
send for him up to the Council to answer it? If any
injustice be done to the Gentleman, on hearing matter of
fact, there may be cause of complaint. He is a Member of Parliament, and may not the King, if he sees
cause, turn him out of his Government, in Privilege
time? Bring the state of the case of these Gentlemen
before you, and then you are ripe to debate it.
Sir William Hickman.] This case is declared no matter of state; 'tis only relating to the Chimney Act.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The case is this; the farmer of the
Chimney-duty complains of these Gentlemen to the
Council-table, and makes it a private cause, in his own
right. Before the duty was farmed, when the King had it
in his own hands, I have heard that more money was made
of it, and there were fewer complaints of the misdemeanor
of the officers. When our poor neighbours in the country
cannot be eased, when the Collectors have done them
wrong, without fear of the Justices being summoned up
to the Council-board to answer it, either no Gentleman
must be a Justice, or you must make an Act that Justices may not be Judges in this case. I would have
these persons that have broke your Privilege sent up
for in custody.
Mr May.] 'Tis said "this is but for for a two shilling
matter that a Gentleman is sent for up to the Counciltable." If it be for doing right, he need not be afraid of
being sent for. (laughed at)
Col. Titus.] You have been told that the Lord Treasurer recalled the Summons to the Members that were
complained of by the farmers, being of opinion that
the summoning them was a breach of Privilege, and
the Members of the Council were of opinion that 'twas
a breach of Privilege, and the House being so too, I
would have them sent for in custody.
Sir Charles Harbord.] There is a distinction between
sending "for a man," and "to a man" If "for a
man," then 'tis a breach of Privilege; if "to a man,"
'tis none. If it be to answer something I think fit to
answer, if I be not punished for what I have done, I
shall not be justified in it. If that be the case, 'tis no
breach of Privilege. But if an Order be sent to a Member, as in the case of subpæna, or citation, to the Prerogative Court, to impede the Member in person or estate,
'tis a breach of Privilege.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If he that summons the Member
shows a penalty annexed to the summons, then the argument is lost. There is no greater penalty than the
disgrace of being turned out of commission of the peace
in the face of his country (as Mr Pierpoint was.) It
will be either looked upon that the Gentleman is ignorant in his office, or that he is guilty of some wilful
neglect. The Chimney duty is regulated by a law,
and the judgment, upon difference arising between the
Collectors and the parties grieved, is final in the Justices
of Peace. The Council-board, whose judgment is not
final in these cases, sends up for a Judge to censure him,
whose judgment is final. Suppose the King's Bench
should send for a Member; in such a case, no man
doubts but 'tis a breach of Privilege. In matters of
state we do allow an authority in the Council-table. But
this case is in matter of meum and tuum; there is twelve
pence in the case. This House formerly voted the
Leicester case, between the excisemen, a grievance, which
you determined in the last Act of the Excise; and I
could wish this was so too.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I hope the Council-board
will never do any thing against law. The person who
had the Order of Council may offend in the manner
of executing his Commission. If the Judges are complained of to the Council-table, on any notorious complaint, they are sent for, and the course of law is ordered against them. If you think fit, in a day or two,
let the case be prepared to see the tenderness of the
Council, in the proceedings against your Member, and
likewise what your Member has done.
Mr Sacheverell.] This is a case said, in the Order, to be
in favour of your Member. This summons to appear
at the Council was after your Member was turned out
of Commission, and before he was heard.
Ordered, That the person who committed the breach of Privilege upon Sir William Frankland, &c. be sent for in custody;
and that the patent of the farmers of the Chimney Act be
brought to the House, &c
(fn. 4) .
The Address ordered January 29, was reported, and debated.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] "The King of France not
to be left in any greater power than he retained by
the Pyrenean Treaty, &c." Do you mean by this, that,
if the King's Allies shall not go so far, you will quit
their Alliance? I would have that explained.
Lord Obrien.] If any such care had been taken to
secure your Plantations, till Alliances were made, I
should not be against the Address.
Mr Garroway.] We are so unfortunate as, in these
matters of Alliances, to be in the dark. We know
nothing, and are told nothing that must be done, and
so we make drafts of Addresses accordingly. If the
Members of the Privy Council will tell us what has
been done, we may know what measure to go by;
but if nothing be offered, to us, less than what is
contained in this Address cannot be done by us. When
Alliances are imparted to us, we may do accordingly.
Till then, I would have this Address go on.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] You seem not satisfied
that the Alliances entered into go not far enough, and
that you have not light enough into them, and therefore
you make this Address; but that will not clear you at
all. Suppose the Allies will not come up to this Address, shall the King then, for his own safety, make none
at all? Shall he stand by himself? Another thing is,
there may be an actual engagement in the Treaties already made, and that, for ought I know, ought to be
executed now whilst we are addressing. Do you mean
to disallow the Treaties if they be made, or that the King
shall stop and go no farther in what Alliances he has
begun? We are not bound to do according to what is
talked of abroad. Be pleased to debate the Address,
paragraph by paragraph.
Mr Powle.] The Gentlemen now against this part
of the Address, "of reducing the French King to the terms
of the Pyrenean Treaty" seemed to make no question of
it, when the Address was ordered, that the Confederates
were willing to come up to it, being engaged much to
that matter already. If they will come up to it, we
have our ends; if not, we have time to think farther
what to do. Where is the delay, I would know, of
the execution of that Treaty, (we are told of) in hand?
I would not give money till I know for what, and, when
I do know those Treaties, I shall then give my consent
chearfully.
Sir John Ernly.] If the Address be to reduce the King
of France to that strength of ships and men he was in
at the Pyrenean Treaty, I hope that is not your meaning. I am as afraid of the Confederates making Peace
as any man. There is no Treaty but what Spain has
agreed to, taken in, and consented to. I would look
a little back to our last Address, and the King's Answer
to it.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] I do not say that the Pyrenean is too little, but I say, the King intends more in
the Treaty now on foot than that Treaty. Your Address
says, "To secure your Majesty, &c. from the growth
and power of the French King, that he alone may not
be able to disturb the peace thereof, &c." Suppose the
King of Spain should treat with France about change of
territories, and he has been offered it—Would you not
have the King go as far as he can get Confederates to go?
If they are not of the mind to hold out the War, and
you enter into this Declaration, he may be left alone to
stop that exorbitant power of France. The advice is
good, of stopping that power; but, as the Address is
penned, it is very inconvenient advice. Put not the
King upon engaging, upon your words, in what may be
of great inconvenience to him.
Sir Tho. Meres.] I find, that reducing the French to the
terms of the Pyrenean Treaty is not exorbitant. There
are, since that Treaty, twenty-six places in the French
hands of the Spanish Netherlands. You come in to the
Confederates by this Address, as they are engaged to
one another already. But I find now, by some gentlemen, that Address is much liked, which we were
checked for by the King. Now, this Address is done
in prosecution of our former, and none less than the
Pyrenean Treaty can do our work. We have declared
our opinions already. To reasonable men we make reasonable proposals; and I would agree to the Address.
Sir Robert Howard.] I allow, it had been much better
to have entered into this Treaty sooner; but consider
what has been done since. There has been waste of
fleets and armies, and the Confederates are in no condition to support this Treaty. This Address seems as if,
upon good or ill success, we would be masters of equal
fortune. Some, I hear, say the Confederates have already entered into as great a Treaty as this we have
advised, (that is but hear-say) Now the Question is, if
they be wasted and destroyed, and they come not up to
this of the Pyrenean Treaty, whether shall all sink, and
you will let France alone? But I am still one of those
that think less than that Treaty cannot be done, to do
us any good. No question but the King will go as
near as he can to it; but I would not have him brought
into a condition not to answer your expectation.
Col. Titus.] I am for passing this Clause of the Pyrenean Treaty as it is. Why do you enter into War? Is
it that you love War, or for emulation of the power of
the French King? 'Tis not for War's sake, for that you
foresee is chargeable and dangerous. The reason is,
the preservatior of the kingdom from the exorbitant
power of the French King, dangerous to our safety. If
you will say, you are not sure whether the alliances will
do it, then it is to no purpose to enter into it with them,
Will you make a War, and yet leave the French King
as powerful as before? To abridge him of that power is
the end of this Address; and I would pass this Clause of
the Pyrenean Treaty.
Col. Birch.] 'Tis very necessary that we do, in this
great affair, as those under the reputation of wise men in
Parliament. If you mean to have the hands, hearts, and
purses of all England, to prosecute this War, they must
see to have their account by it. Keep up the Confederacy, and rather let it be longer than fall short. I would
have you over-do them. Though the Confederates have
reason to value the King's promises, yet get confidence in others—Whether is not this promise stronger,
if the people of England will stand by him in it with
their purses? No way can secure us but that. If the
Confederates come not up to us, we will not confederate with them. If we leave the King of France as
he is, he will fall upon us; let us prevent him, if we
can. 'Tis absolutely necessary (my meaning is good,
though my expression is bad that, in this thing, we must
have plain dealing. "If the body of England cannot
bear it, they must be satisfied," is as old as Henry IV.
But, as soon as I know what is done, I would close with
that as far as reasonably we can. But how shall we make
a shot, and have no mark? There is great talk in
town of a project of peace, sent into France, and the
French only make the difference in resigning one town,
Tournay. I would give a quarter of what we shall now
give, rather than that Treaty should be agreed to. Upon
the whole matter, I would pass the paragraph, as agreeing to our former Addresses.
Mr Harbord.] I remember, when I was at Grand
Cairo, the Bashaw had no ships in port to go out to
carry goods to Constantinople, and he laid an embargo
on three French ships, and one English ship, Capt. Ell
commander, for that purpose. They conspired together, and ran away with their loading. Though they
came to Leghorn, to sell the goods they were laden with,
a free port, yet the English Consul commanded all Ell's
goods to be put into his hands, and they were all sent
to Constantinople; but the French ships sold all their
goods, notwithstanding their Consul's order to the contrary. Admiral Blake happened to be in Leghorn road
at that time, and they refused him watering for the
ships. He sent them word, "that he would ruin their
port with one ship only, for he would go on board every
Dutch and French ship in the port." And so, as many
as came in were obliged to perform quarentine. (Blake
coming from a place infected with the plague, which
was the reason they would not admit him to water.)
And he ruined their trade by it with all that came in,
except English, which he did not board; and so they
were free to trade. As I was coming to England, I
overtook forty or fifty French seamen, cast away in the
Bourbon, a French man of war. They told me that the
English had used them barbarously, and they were to go
to Marseilles and Bourdeaux for employment. So that
if the French send so far for their seamen, what can
they do upon us, to invest us by sea? If we may have
plain dealing, and trust and confidence restored, we may
prosper; which has occasioned me to give you these
instances.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I move to have the Treaty now
on foot delivered to us, that we may go chearfully on in
this great business.
Mr Powle.] This Address will carry the thing farther
on, than other Addresses have done. It will now be
assisted by our purposes to support it.
Sir Tho. Meres.] We may give money upon this Treaty,
when we see it; but, till then, I am one of those that will
not give a penny towards it.
Lord Obrien.] If Flanders be lost, let the blame lie
at their doors that are against assisting the King, if any
misfortune follow.—His words gave offence.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Upon this occasion I would
give the King assurance of our performances in assisting
him, in affirmative words. I would have no negative
Words put into the Address, to say, "that we will not
give, but if we see the Treaty, we will give." I would
first see where the fault lies. I cannot imagine, that the
Dutch or Spanish Ambassador would abuse the King by
these Treaties, and have no power from their masters
to conclude them. That their Ambassadors should not
have power to come into what they have done, and not
take a Confederate in, able to assist—I cannot believe such
a defect of power; and that the Spanish Ambassador
must send to Madrid for farther powers (as we have
been told.) I hope, by this way we are about to take,
in a few days, we shall see where the fault is. But this
Address does not exclude us from assisting the King.
There is no negative thing in it.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] To what Littleton speaks
of "foreseeing the powers of the Ambassadors to conclude the Treaty," I think that will not cost many days
to resolve you; but I answer him, that part of power of
finally concluding a Treaty is the last given to an Ambassador—To stand so long and so fully into such a
Treaty. The obligation of Spain, in this Treaty, is as
principal; Holland, and the other Allies, is accessary
only. 'Tis true, that, in one Article, Holland is obliged
never to make Peace without the consent of Spain, and
to restore the Pyrenean Treaty; unless, for the sake
of Peace, it shall be otherwise agreed by the parties.
'Tis plain, that notwithstanding this engagement, Holland
answers the Emperor and Spain, that they have suffered
so long by this War, and their poverty is so great, that
they are not able to go on any farther in carrying on the
war; that they are impotent, and the utmost you can
hope and think of them, will be attended with this pullback. Therefore we cannot think, nor hope, in so short
a time, to have a resolution of your Address; but you
should provide for necessities in the interim.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] 'Tis a great mistake. The
Spanish Ambassador may have power and instructions to
sign the Treaty; but not to ratify it, which must come
from Madrid and Vienna; and 'tis no unusual thing for
Ambassadors to be without powers of ratification I
wish the Pyrenean Treaty from the bottom of my heart:
But suppose it might be part of the Alliance, and
the War should be with France to reduce him to it,
and we be driven to emergences, and we have no Peace
to save the nation less than the Pyrenean Treaty—If we
should have a defection of our Allies, must not the
King save his Nation upon any emergency? If we give
this of the Pyrenean Treaty as a binding condition, to
have that and no other, I aver, we put the King and the
Nation in danger.
Mr Harbord.] You are told "That the States of
Holland are reduced to necessity, and are forced to tell
all Europe and Spain, they can no longer support the
War, but must procure the best peace they can." If
we have a league offensive and defensive with the States,
it is probable they cannot bring in Spain and the Emperor, because it looks like a league to get peace. The
objection from Secretary Coventry is, "If an accident
should happen (the fleet burnt or the Consederates
beaten) must we stick still to the Pyrenean Treaty?" I
answer, that this House has always been dutiful to the
King, and, upon any emergency, may be called, and
they have never failed to supply the King with their
purses and advice.
Sir Tho. Littleton.] What is desired has been an
usual thing done, and may be done again; which is to
see this Treaty. If the Ambassadors sign, and the States
agree to it, I would never stay for a ratification from
Madrid, but give money presently upon it.
The Proviso for prohibiting French Trade debated.
Sir Tho. Littleton.] Who are out of this War with
France? Hamburgh, the Hans Towns, Portugal, and the
Genoese, and the rest of the Italian Princes. What need we
be afraid of those Merchants? We may displease them,
but Monarchs we cannot displease: Only Portugal may
have more vent for their wines by it here and in other
places, and may be a gainer likewise by his salt. The two
naval powers of Holland and England were never united,
and if they say the word, though all the world be
against us, 'tis no matter. It may be, Holland may
have some river blocked up, in the Indies, by the
French, but they have a territory there of 600 miles in
length. But this naval power joined will block up
France by sea, and in the effect so trouble them, that
they must relinqush their conquests by land, to save
their country. This, I believe, will be the effect of
joining our fleets, and prohibiting Trade with the
French.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] Judge what kind of affront
this forbidding of Trade will be to your neighbours, to
make that an Article of Confederacy with them. All
the Italian Princes will be upon you, if you shut up
their ports to French Trade, so that neither the Duke
of Savoy nor the Pope (spoken merrily) may trade with
the King of France. To make a general Order against
any of our friends to trade with him—it cannot be.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Spoke something (which
could not well be beard) about the unneighbourliness of
this prohibition of Trade with the King of France.
Sir Tho. Meres.] How can we help the constitution of
our Nation in this point of French Trade? If it goes
on at the rate 'tis now at, 'twill ruin us. We cannot
support our Interest without this prohibition, and let the
Italian Princes and the Hans Towns look after their
own interest. If Flanders be lost, when the House has
been two or three years persuading the preservation of
it by Alliances, we have offered our Aids, Advices, and
Counsels, and they have not been liked, and we are told
there is not time to do what we advise. We have been
put off two or three years from suppressing the growth
of Popery, and now we are come to a precipice and
a push in this matter, it shall never be said to be our
fault, that we suppress not this exorbitant Trade of
France, that will ruin us.
Col. Birch.] I humbly conceive, that 'tis for the interest of the Confederates to do this thing we are about;
that, whilst we are fighting, the French may not take
all the profit of their wines and other commodities; and
it seems to some that that is not a considerable thing.
'Tis our money, and the Dutch money, that must support
the Confederacy, and may not these Princes and Towns
out of the Confederacy, fetch the French Commodities,
and so disperse them all Europe over, and for salt,
silk, &c. and the French King have your money still?
I would never have a Peace with them, but such a one
as we may sit down and say, there is safety in that
Peace. If you will suffer others to fetch the French
Commodities, and so feed them with money, that, I am
sure, will not answer the end.
This Clause of prohibition of Trade was added to the Address,
and the Address was agreed to, as follows:
"We your Majesty's most humble and loyal Subjects, the
Commons in this present Parliament assembled, do in all duty
and gratitude render our most humble thanks to your most sacred
Majesty for the great care your Majesty hath expressed for the
preservation and encouragement of the Protestant Religion, by
concluding a marriage between the Lady Mary, your Majesty's
Niece, and the Prince of Orange, being a Prince professing the
same Religion with us, and engaged in arms for the defence of
the common cause of Christendom: For the promoting of which
we do, in all humility, and with the highest zeal to your Majesty's honour, and the safety of your people, beseech your Majesty not to admit of any Treaty of Peace, whereby the French
King shall be left in the possession of any larger dominions and
territories, or of any greater power than what he retained by
the Pyrenean Treaty; less than which, we conceive, cannot secure your Majesty's Kingdoms, and the rest of Europe, from
the growth and power of the said King, but that he alone may
be able to disturb the Peace thereof, whensoever he is minded
to attempt it; the places reserved by that Treaty to the King
of Spain in the Netherlands being advantageous, as well by the
vicinity of some important towns and garrisons to the Kingdom of France, as by the extent of the Territory. And we do
most humbly desire that, in all Treaties, Articles, and Confederations, in order to the obtaining that end, your Majesty would be
pleased to provide that none of the parties that shall join with
your Majesty in making War for that purpose, may lay down
their arms, or depart from their Alliances, till the said King be
reduced at least to the said Treaty: And we do farther desire,
as one of the most effectual means to attain those ends, that
it may be agreed between your Majesty and the Confederates, that neither ourselves nor any of them shall hold any
Commerce or Trade with the French King, or his subjects, during such War; and that no Commodity of the growth, product,
or manufacture of France, or of any of the Territories [or Dominions] of the French King, be admitted to be brought into
your Majesty's, or any of their Countries and Dominions, either
by land or sea, or to be sold within the same; but that they be
seized and destroyed wheresoever they be found, and days to
be limited for the same, in as short time as the nature of such
affairs will permit: And that in all Treaties, Articles, and Consederations, made in order to or for the prosecution of such War,
it may be agreed and declared, that no vessel of any Nation
whatsoever shall be permitted to enter into or come out of the
ports of France, but that the ship and men shall be seized, and
the goods destroyed."
"We do therefore most humbly desire your Majesty to proceed in making such Alliances and Confederations [as shall
be necessary] for the attaining those ends; and though we believe your Majesty can never doubt of the affections of your
people, yet, upon this occasion, we do, with all alacrity, and with
one unanimous consent, renew our former promises and engagements; beseeching your Majesty to rest confidently assured
of our perseverance in the prosecution of the said War; and
that when your Majesty shall please to impart such Alliances
and Consederations to us in Parliament, we shall, upon all occasions, give your Majesty such ready assistances and supports as
may, by the blessing of God, bring the said War to a happy conclusion."
The Privy-Counsellors of the House were ordered to know
his Majesty's pleasure, when he would be attended with this
Address.