Thursday, April 11.
The House met, after the Recess, when Sir Robert Sawyer [on
the recommendation of Mr Secretary Coventry] was chosen
Speaker, in the room of Mr Seymour, who had retired into the
Country (as was said) ill of the Rheumatism (fn. 1) . [Adjourned to
Monday, April 15.
[The House, on a Message from the King, attended him in the
House of Lords, where the Speaker elect was approved and
allowed of by his Majesty. Being returned, the Speaker, having
taken the Chair, acquainted the House, That it was his Majesty's
pleasure that both Houses should adjourn themselves till Monday
April 29th; and that the reason of such Adjournment was to this
effect: "That the Dutch Ambassador had not at present full
instructions; and that the affairs concerning the Alliances were
not yet so ripe, or fit to be imparted to both Houses of Parliament, as it was expected they might have been upon the last
Several Motions were made, after this signification of the
King's pleasure of Adjournment, as it were to gain that point,
controverted in the former Speaker's time, upon this new
Speaker: As that of bringing in Sir William Killigrew's Bill:
Another by Sir Edward Jennings relating to Durham Election,
and that the Committee of Elections might be adjourned, by
Order, to prevent Witnesses coming up, &c.
But because the point might be thoroughly gained, the House
fell into the following Debate.
Col. Birch.] I have been at many choices of Speakers,
and am heartily sorry for the loss of Mr Seymour. Though
I have an honour for you, Mr Speaker, (Sawyer, I hope
Seymour may be well enough to come again to the Chair.
I must take notice that the Speaker ought to report the
four things the King usually grants the Speaker, which
he requests in behalf of the House, &c. I hoped not
for a fortnight's Adjournment; I feared it; but seeing
that 'tis the King's pleasure, I humbly submit to it.
Sir Thomas Meres.] This Adjournment for a fortnight
is hard. When we desired it for three weeks, it was not
granted. The last Recess, there were eighteen private
Bills passed, and no public Bills; and this fortnight
might have been for public Bills, and the Popery matter
is upon the anvil, and adjourned to this afternoon by
Order, and by Order we may sit, but we cannot go
through with it to-day. Therefore I would send to the
King, before the Lords rise, that he may be moved to
let us sit. These are things which concern the Nation
vitally, to be done, and I would have something done
of the concern of the Nation.
Mr Sacheverell.] As I stand informed, our Message
to the King was, "to adjourn to as long a time as his
occasions would permit." And now his great occasion
is not ready for you, I suppose this Adjournment to be
an Answer to your Message. The King's occasion is
not fit. But I doubt not, but if you signify to the King,
that you have public business in your eye, which
may come on till his great affairs are ready, he will
give you leave to sit. And I move to desire the Lords
to concur with you in still sitting, That of Popery is
so necessary to be considered, that it looks as necessary
as the Army itself. I fear there is Money in this Adjournment, and I move that the Lords Concurrence may
Mr Secretary Coventry.] We are to adjourn presently,
upon signification of the King's pleasure, and I do not
remember that, when the King has signified it, this was
ever done before, unless in the Long Parliament—
That cannot be a pressing Argument, though the Dutch
have pressed that of Prohibition of French Commodities so much. What you have done by a Law, the Ambassador acknowleges he has no instruction to conclude
upon, and you shut the gates to your selves, in trade,
and open them to all the world.
Sir Thomas Lee.] (Upon some calling to adjourn) Gentlemen know me too well to sit down, because they
call "Adjourn." In King Charles's time, what is moved
was not so unusual a thing moved as Coventry says. It
was done twice. Country Gentlemens affairs will call
upon them. We shall better understand who counselled
the King to this, about Midsummer, than now; and
if there is nothing to be done, but giving Money,
then 'tis very well argued for Adjournment now. But I
am sure 'tis for the King's service, that things depending should be pursued. And because the Lords
are not up, I would put the Question.
Mr Williams.] 'Tis said by Coventry, "There is no
precedent of this but in the Long Parliament," In the
Journal you will find that, 2 or 3 Cha. I an Address was
made to the King to prolong the time of sitting of the
House; and the King granted it in some part. Something, surely, we may proceed upon for the Public,
as Popery, &c. without meddling at all with the affairs of the War. If what was represented at our last
sitting, relating to Popery be true, for this very purpose
I would address the King, that we may sit to examine
this matter, it being so much for the safety of Religion.
Mr Secretary Williamson] I can easily pardon the
resentment of Country Gentlemen for their disappointment by this Adjournment. But the King has
not known this change of his mind four days. Saturday
was the last day he despaired of keeping his mind in
this matter. The King had it in his mind to alleviate
and soften this disappointment, by speaking to you
himself. We ought certainly to clear this matter of
Popery, and time may be for that. Some complaints
have been of this, and this afternoon something may
be done. My reading is little, and my experience less,
in the nature of this Motion of an Address to the King
for sitting a longer time. In the 18th of King James, there
was something of this kind, but the Lords did refuse
to join with this House. I am extremely sorry that this
happens in such a conjuncture, when there is need of all
possible harmony. This is a disappointment that puts
as much trouble upon the King, as upon any Gentleman here. But I hope, by the time you meet again,
the King will be able to finish the matter, so as to
lay it open to you. For the King cannot make them
certain. For the present, they are as bad as bad can
be. But I hope Gentlemen will excuse the disappointment, and adjourn, &c.
Mr Vaughan.] This is matter of that fatality that I
fear it will take up all your time, and none will be left
for the concerns of the King and Kingdom. It is an
ill thing for us to go back into the Country, and they
to tell us, " we must go again to make War, and give
Money." There is a Precedent of addressing for farther time, in the 9th and 13th of King James, and I doubt
not but you will have the same return from this King
that you had from King James.
Mr Secretary Coventry.] (They called out, "He had
spoke, spoke") No man can say I have spoke, when I
stand up to explain myself. I have read that Precedent of King James: The Commons did represent to
the King, "That the time was not sufficient between
the Holidays, &c. to do the business before them, &c."
But when the King has declared his pleasure for a speedy Adjournment, the House never proceeded any farther, &c.
Mr Powle.] I will only tell you what amazes me
extremely. On the 28th of January, the King told you,
"He had made Leagues with Holland, &c." And
Williamson tells you, "Things are as bad as bad can
be." I would know how that comes about?
Mr Secretary Williamson.] 'Tis better to have things
upon certainty than uncertainty. There was a Treaty,
and is a Treaty. Now we have made it with Holland,
and come to the rest of the Allies, Holland flies off from
us; and that made me say, "Things were as bad as
bad can be."
Sir John Coventry.] These kind of Adjournments are
very strange things, and this proceeds from your Counsels to raise men against Magna Charta, and set up
Popery. No man can bear this. If the King thinks
we are not fit to serve him, I desire he may be moved
for a new Parliament, and new Counsellors.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The matter being so, that the Lords
are up, 'tis in vain to address the King. I shall observe, that now there is an alteration from former
times; for then all the study was to make Parliaments
meet and rise with complacency; but now 'tis quite
otherwise. That is all the observation I will now make,
and let us adjourn.
Sir John Hotham.] Since 'tis concluded that the
Lords are up, we lose time to debate farther; only before we adjourn, I would remind you that, about a fortnight ago, there was a Committee appointed to send the
Lords Reasons for present declaring War against the
French, &c. I desire this, that we may not enter into
a War merely because there are Jealousies, &c. but
that the Reasons may be obvious. I move that, seeing
the House is of a mind for their Religion, a Committee
may sit in this interval to prepare those Reasons, about
Popery, &c. that the Nation may see that we come
for something besides gratifying particular people.
Sir Tho. Littleton] I think, Hotham has made you a
good Motion. It was said "that it was a Long Parliament
Precedent to have a Committee sit in the interval of
sitting, &c." We still have a recourse to that topic;
but the Lords have sat upon several businesses, besides
the Tryal of Lord Pembroke; and 'tis dangerous for one
House to sit, and not the other. A Committee to sit,
is not so dangerous, and we may have a Committee
to sit, if the Lords sit.
Sir Gilbert Gerrard.] There are such a multitude of
Papists, and Strangers, of all Nations, that I would have
a Committee to sit, and draw up Reasons of our apprehensions of Popery, in this interval: And the House
to be called over on Tuesday come fortnight.
Col. Birch.] I am sorry to hear, from Williamson, that
this disappointment, &c. lies so heavy upon the King.
I wonder at it, and am very sorry, that that League for
lessening the power of the French King, which would
have given such a handle to it, should be as we are told.
Those that have the handling of it will bring us out
of it, I hope. The only thing to lessen the power of
France is forbidding trade thither. I hoped to have
heard of smoother water in Scotland; but to think of
a War with France, without the help of so great a
limb of us as Scotland, is very dangerous. I hope and
believe that nothing but this of the Dutch, &c. is the
cause of our Adjournment. I have been lately in the
Country; they find but one public Bill passed, and
that for Money (fn. 2) : And they are in fear of Popery,
and worse. I would have that Committee (moved for)
for that very reason, for a Conference with the Lords
about Popery, &c. and I like the calling over of the
House, as has been moved. But first put the Question
for the Committee.
Sir John Ernly.] I did resent this of the Dutch before, but I could not have thought that so great a retrograde would have been; but de facto 'tis come to this:
The Dutch Ambassador has no Instructions, &c. and
if we let slip this French trade to them that lie at catch
for it, you will have little effect of lessening the power
of France. I never hoped to have heard of a Convent of seminary Priests in England, &c. I did, and
do stand amazed at it, and that they should have
300 l. a year—'Tis very fit to be enquired into, and I
would have the Committee sit this afternoon, to enquire into it. If it be true, 'tis the foulest thing in
the World; but if it be not, this House is abused, &c.
Serjeant Seys.] I move that the Committee may sit
de diem in diem, till the thing be fully enquired into.
Sir John Trevor.] I think you were informed that
the Reasons were not prepared. The matter is of that
consequence, and so much of it, that one afternoon cannot perfect it; 'tis so out of order, that the thing would
be disorderly to report it. I suppose two days may
end it, but under that time it cannot.
The Speaker.] You may revive that Order for the
Committee to sit.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] If there be any doubt of a
Committee sitting in a recess of Adjournment, there
are divers Precedents of it; and there is no doubt
but they may sit.
Ordered, That the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons
for the Conference to be had with the Lords, concerning the
danger the Nation is in by the growth of Popery, do sit
during the interval of the sitting of the House, to perfect the
matters referred to them, &c.
Sir Thomas Higgins's words gave offence.
Sir John Coventry.] I am sorry to sit in the House
to hear persons justify Popery; and he deserves not
to sit here that does so; and this will be till you
find out somebody.
Sir Thomas Higgins.] I did not say "that the account of the Convent of seminary Priests was false:" But
I know those that do affirm that it is false, and I am
informed by people of very good credit that 'tis not so.
Sir Francis Drake.] I aver that Higgins said, "I am
the rather for the Committee's sitting, because I do
believe that it will be proved all false;" and I desire he
may be called to the Bar for it.
Col. Birch.] I hope the House will not cool, when
there is a greater occasion than this. I was one of those
that put Higgins into this Committee. What Higgins
doubted was for better information. I hope that all
this that we have heard is not true; but I would have it
examined to the bottom. I hear that there is dirt thrown
upon the Gentlemen that appeared at the Bar to prove
it; but, I believe, they will prove it, and I am confident of it. There is my confidence against another
man's confidence. I would have the Committee sit
four or five days only.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Those Gentlemen, I believe, that
were so warm as to call Higgins to the Bar, did understand the thing amiss; but I doubt his first words were
very harsh, though he has explained them. No man
doubts but that those Gentlemen of Herefordshire were
turned out of Commission of the Peace, after they had
done their duty about the Priests, &c. and another was
made Sheriff, &c. But turning out one Justice in the face
of his Country is a discouragement to two hundred.
Whipping one dog makes them all run away; and this
does in a great measure prove the thing. This appointing a Committee, &c. hath been often done, in an interval, of sitting, but I would not assign them only two
days, to lay a restraint upon them. It looks like distrust
of their modesty.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I know Mr Arnold, the Gentleman that was turned out of Commission, and I wonder
Higgins should say he will be disproved. His father
would never comply with paying taxes in any of the
usurped Governments. Worthy Gentlemen, the Knights
of the Shire, had the examination of the thing, and I
have it in my pocket to evince all this; and I wonder Higgins should speak of men that can contradict it.
The Committee was ordered, &c. (as above,) and the House
to be called over Tuesday fortnight, and Letters to be sent to
the Sheriffs, &c. as formerly. The House then Adjourned to
Monday, April 29.
Sir John Trevor reports, That the Committee have taken the
information of Mr Arnold, and Mr Scudamore, and several other
Justices of the Peace, and have disposed the matter under
three heads: 1. Popish Priests, by whom kept, and where Masses
are said. 2. Justices of the Peace, and others, that favour Popish
Recusants. 3. The proceedings in the Exchequer against Recusants.
For the first, in the County of Monmouth, Mr Arnold's examination says, "That one Lewis, a Priest, has been in that
County seven or eight years; he hath seen the Chapel wherein
Lewis said Mass." One said, "that Lewis had been a Priest
these sixteen years, and that he was the Superior of all the Jesuits in North and South Wales." "Captain Syliard is a
Romish Priest, and hath endeavoured to pervert several to that
2. The Committee was informed that Mr Fenwick was put
into the Commission of the Peace, in Northumberland, whose Wise
was a Papist, and his Children bred Papists. The Knights of
the Shire desired that Mr Carnaby, a Protestant, might be put
in, in his stead, and were refused by the Lord Chancellor.
3. The Commissioners for estreating two thirds of the Papists
Estates in Monmouthshire, the 22d of July, 1675, of all the
Lands there returned into the Exchequer 4 l. 13 s. 4 d. the forfeitures of Protestant Dissenters, and not Romish Recusants. In
London and Middlesex 300 l. Of Romish, 3 s. 4 d (fn. 3) .
The House then attended his Majesty in the House of Peers,
where the Lord Chancellor, by the King's Command, made a
Speech, in which he reminded them of "the King's offensive
and defensive League with Holland; signified that his Majesty
had endeavoured to improve that League by entering into farther
and more general Alliances, for the Prosecution of the War;
but that he had nevertheless thought fit, before he made his
last step, to take the farther Advice of both his Houses of Parliament; and that he resolved to govern himself by it."
His Lordship then undertook to give a brief deduction of affairs, from March 16, 1676, to show, "1. That the Addresses
of the Commons did not recommend immediate War, but Alliances; in particular with Holland, by way of a preparation for a
War. 2. That the said particular Treaty could be no otherwise
set on foot than with the Prince of Orange, who was in so great
a hurry of business, and such a heat of action, that no time
could be found to enter with him upon that Treaty. 3. That
his Majesty, to lose no time, had laid out all the 200,000 l.
which he was enabled to borrow, in military Preparations, and
that if he had been furnished with the 600,000 l. he demanded, he should likewise have laid it out, by this time, in
land or sea stores, and provisions, to universal satisfaction.
4. That when the Prince himself arrived here, it appearing that
the States still continued violent for a Peace, which they had
applied to him to procure for them, in January, May, and
September last; and that, consequently, his Majesty's endeavours
for that end would be grateful to them, he took that opportunity to engage the said States that, in case of refusal, they should
co-operate with him to carry his point by force of Arms, his
Majesty well perceiving that being then weary of the War, they
would enter into no Alliance with him without a prospect of Peace.
5. That in the midst of their most pressing dangers, his Majesty
had given his Niece to the Prince of Orange, as a pledge of his Attachment to their interest; which alone was enough to extinguish the fears of all at home, and raise the hopes of all that were
abroad. 6. That to the end it might be known, whether the
Most Christian King would consent to such conditions of Peace
as would be grateful to the States, the Earl of Feversham was
sent to Paris, but returned with an Answer very dissatisfactory.
7. That hereupon his Majesty hastened the Meeting of the Parliament, and concluded the League offensive and defensive with
Holland; which he was graciously inclined to communicate to
Parliament, if they should desire to see it. 8. That he had,
moreover, concluded a perpetual defensive Alliance with the
States. 9. That in pursuit of the first of these Leagues, he had
called upon the States to adjust the several Quotas by sea and
land, which the several parties were to furnish: That he had
communicated his own: That he had sent some Forces into
Flanders already, and would have sent more, if some difficulties
had not been made on that side [relating to Ostend,] which, for
friendship's sake, he does not think fit to communicate. 10 That
the next thing absolutely necessary to be done was, to form one
common Alliance, for all parties to enter into, for the making
the necessary dispositions for carrying on the War, for establishing a general prohibition of Commerce, and providing against all possibility of a separate Peace. 11. That to this end
his Majesty appointed Commissioners, on his part, to treat
with the Ministers of the respective Powers; but when it came
to the issue, it appeared that the Dutch had no Power to treat,
["Conclude" his Lordship should have said] 12. That when, upon
his Majesty's own earnest instances, Powers did come, they were
unaccompanied with Instructions. 13. That his Majesty now
finds what he always feared, that the Dutch are making haste
to get out of the War; and are so far from being disposed to
enter into any new Alliance for the more vigorous prosecution
of it, that, whether they will persevere in that which they have already made, depends on very many and very great uncertainties.
14. That, at this very time, they give ear to such a Treaty as (the
Most Christian King hath thought fit to offer at Nimeguen,) as
before mentioned,) though it be without his Majesty's consent or
privity, and contrary to that League by which they stand obliged
to him to prosecute the War till a much better Peace can be
obtained. 15. That his Majesty hath sent to desire an Explanation of this manner of proceeding, and to dissuade them from it,
by letting them see that this will be as ill a Peace for themselves,
and the rest of Christendom, as their enemies could wish.
16. That as yet he has received no answer but complaints of
their great poverty, and utter inability to carry on the War;
and that he is told by their Ambassador, that they intend to
send over an Envoy Extraordinary, to beg his Majesty to accept
of the Propositions, and to excuse themselves on the general impatience for a Peace. 17. That this is the state of the case
between us and Holland; so that there is little reason to hope
that the States will so far enter into the common Alliance, as
to make it quadrupartite: And 18. Upon the whole matter, his
Lordship ended as he began with "his Majesty's demand of
their Advice, as to what would be fitting for him to do, in this
difficult conjuncture (fn. 4) ."
After several Motions, &c were made to consider of this Speech,
Col. Birch said,] Since the King will lay all the matter before you, I should be glad to see that which is
called the "defensive League" only. The King is pleased
to say "you shall see it all" now, which might have
been done before. But the hand of God is in it; we
must see it now. I would have the whole matter laid
open now; and not have it put off to another day.
Serjeant Maynard.] You cannot consider of the Speech,
till you have the whole matter to consider of, and that
cannot be to-day.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] If you desire the Treaty
with the States-General, you may have it before you
rise, if you please.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I desire speedily to go about it,
eo instante, now. My observation upon it is, that all
our Addresses to the King have been made for a War;
and, in the Chancellor's Speech, we hear of nothing but
Peace. We gave Reasons for it in our Address, and I
wonder no proceedings were in it, before the States had
communication with the Prince of Orange, who is their
servant, and that made the Dutch jealous of him before.
I would willingly see these Alliances, that we may go
Sir Thomas Lee.] You would do well, I think, to
consider what is the advantage of this; your discourse
is for War, and your Address to the King accordingly;
and so what relates to Peace is out of your sense and
intention; therefore I desire not to see the Treaties.
Mr Garroway.] I differ from Lee. I would see the
Treaties, that the World may see how we are abused.
We were told of War in the beginning of this Session,
and one said "he would rather be guilty of forty Murders, than it should not be War, and you must not
then procrastinate a day." And will you not see the
truth of it? You have given away the Nation's Money
to no purpose, and have raised men for an actual War,
and that is turned into a Peace; which was never your
intention. 'Tis fit the World should see the reason
Sir John Hanmer.] The sense of the Chancellor's
Speech is, that the King has proceeded to War as much
as he could, and the Dutch say they have been so wasted
with the War, that, without a preliminary from the
French King, they would go into a Peace with him.
France would not give any, and then they would treat
with the King. The King has all along intended War
with the French, and has endeavoured to do it, and the
Alliances are not come up to it. The Treaties may be
seen and had; and I believe the King will do whatever shall be for the good of the Nation.
Sir John Hotham.] I would see all the Treaties, for
I believe there is more than one; and I second the Motion.
Sir John Ernly.] I doubt we all shoot at random,
without the sight of these Treaties. The King, I assure
you, will have no reserve. The King did think the
Dutch would do as they have done; and I would have
all things plainly before you, prepared for this matter.
Perhaps 'tis no jesting matter; perhaps the Nation
was never in a thing of so much weight before.
Sir Thomas Meres.] Those of my opinion never
thought this "a jesting matter;" we told you all along we
went blindfold, and should stumble in the dark. And
you were told so some time since, when "things were
as bad as bad can be." And there is a stumble in the
dark for you. When they would not let us see this
Treaty, it seems, our advice was not worth taking. The
thing was only for Money, and now we are an old
Almanack; out of date. We see it; now we see it plainly,
that these Alliances are a sort of riddle and ænigma; the
mother begets the daughter, and Peace begets War.
Let us see, pray, these Alliances, to compare them
with what copies we have had before. I desire that
those Gentlemen that moved it may go to the King
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Those that are to do your
commands, would willingly understand them. What
are the Leagues you mean, that you would desire to see?
Mr Powle.] In the Chancellor's Speech there was
mention made of two Leagues, "offensive and defensive," and "of perpetual defence." I desire we may
have them, that we may be better guided by what we
have in writing than what is said.
Col. Birch.] I would have but one work of it. I
would not therefore desire only that League offensive,
and the other defensive, but desire the King to communicate such Leagues or Treaties sent to the Prince of
Orange, or that the King has from him, as relate to that
Sir Thomas Clarges.] There is a project of a Treaty
that Lord Feversham carried into France: I would see
that, and have all things relative to this matter communicated to us.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I would desire the King that he
would communicate such Leagues as may clear you in
this matter. Perhaps, if the King thinks fit to go on
with the War, he will show you what Leagues are with
France, likewise, and those I would very willingly see.
Mr Garroway.] I would not have these words in the
Message to the King for the Leagues, viz. "That the
House may ground their Advice upon:" They are too
obliging, and Perhaps we shall have other matter to
ground Advice upon.
Ordered, That the Members of this House that are of the
Privy Council do desire his Majesty, that he will be pleased to communicate to this House all such Leagues and Treaties as are
mentioned in the Chancellor's Speech, or relating thereunto.
[The House then resumed the consideration of the state of the
Kingdom, with regard to Popery, and received and approved
certain Reasons (fn. 5) , to be offered at a Conference with the Lords,
to induce them to co-operate in seeking a remedy against this
growing evil, which ended with these remarkable words.
"And that this may be done with all expedition; because the
Commons cannot think it suitable to their trust, to consent to
lay any farther charge upon the people, how urgent so-ever the
occasion be that require it, till their minds be satisfied, that all
care and diligence is used to secure the Kingdom, and prevent
the dangers that may arise from the prevalency and countenance
that is given to that party, by some more effectual course than
hath been already provided (fn. 6) .]
Sir Charles Wheeler.] I would see by what Order the
Committee could draw up any thing to present to the
Lords, in relation to giving of Money.
Mr Goring.] Because some Gentlemen have not done
their duty, must the Nation be lost for want of giving
the King Money? The Committee has not done their duty
in putting in the [above] Clause of not granting Money,
&c. and they those defend it shall be called to the Bar.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] Perhaps be the extremity
may be so great for raising Money, that you may leave
out all this Paper. I would have this thought of.
Col. Birch.] I am not for carrying a thing by a Quesion, but by Reason. I little thought that your Committee would have been guilty of Treason, (as the Bill
you intend imports.) Is there any Gentleman will stand
up to say a word against the safety of Religion? No
man can say that this Address hinders giving Money, if
there be occasion, and enables it to give Money. If any
man would not secure the Protestant Religion, let him rise
up and say so.
Sir Robert Carr.] If the Committee have gone farther than your Order, we may say so. Till I have
seen the Treaties, I cannot give my Negative to Money.
[would have the latter part of the Address, relating to
Money, put to the Question, by itself, and to the rest
I am ready to give consent.
Sir Thomas Meres.] If you lose your Religion, you
lose all your Liberties. You cannot save the Protestant
Religion, but by this Paper—Farewell Parliaments, and
all Laws, and Government, and the Protestant Religion,
for they are all one! There is no haste to any thing
else. In 1670, you did more than you now have done,
and it came to nothing. You have nothing in the Address, but from the last Clauses. If they be left out,
'tis but brutum fulmen. If you intend nothing, and
will fling up all Religion, fling up that Clause.
Mr Vaughan.] Whether Protestant Dissenter, or
not, &c. is not the Question, but the Papist is plainly
spared in the Conviction, and slips from the penalty of
the Law; and that is your Grievance.
Col. Birch.] The Quakers here, at your Bar, did
make a difference of themselves from Papists. They
declared, "they were of the same faith and belief
as we are, only that some matters that were invented
by men, they could not join in;" and that was a good
account of themselves. But when I heard Sir Solomon
Swale here, and Sir Thomas Strickland there, (whom
you have expelled the House for being Papists) cry up
the Church of England, and run down the Protestant
Dissenters, that alarmed me.
Sir John Ernly.] I doubt there will be great inconvenience in the last Clause of the Address. We have now
raised Forces, &c. and they are going over, &c. and if
we fear the growth of the power of the French King, and
our men are going over, &c. there can be no greater
discouragement to them, than that you will give no
Money till all this be done. And since you have made
this another part of the Address, not in your Order, I
would lay it aside till another time for consideration.
Sir Philip Monckton.] Settle Religion, secure that, and
no doubt but you will secure the Nation; else, all is lost.
You have seen the Royal Family have one sad fall,
and as you would preserve that, preserve Religion.
Sir Richard Temple.] If you do not provide for your
safety, Popery will the more easily come in. Show
your zeal, but according to knowledge. I would preserve your Safety and Religion. This is of dangerous
consequence, for a Committee, in intervals of Parliament, to prescribe ways to the House in giving Money.
Is this proper to tell the Lords? There was never such
a thing done, to put this office out of our own hands.
It will not be a reason maintainable there. I would
have nothing done thus, by side-winds, and I would
leave out this Clause.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Upon the Debate of the House,
when the Committee was appointed, a stop to the raising
of more Money, till our fears of Popery were remedied,
was part of that Debate. It was a young Gentleman
(Mr Goring) not used to speak, that would have had the
Committee called to the Bar, for putting that Clause in
without leave of the House; but I would have that forgotten. But I believe it will pass the Lords, and pray
try whether it will do so, or not. Let all things be
forgotten that are passed, and, for the future, I hope the
Ministers will redeem what is passed, and I would agree
with the Committee.
Sir John Ernly.] There have been more Convictions
in the Exchequer since my time, than in any man's in
that Office before me. And I shall do my utmost endeavours to suppress the growth of Popery. I said,
"This will be some discouragement to your forces by
Land and Sea." 'Twill be an encouragement to your
enemies, and a great inconvenience to you. But if there
be no other way to keep your Religion, but by this
Clause, I would not be against it. But as for these words,
"Justices of the Peace put in to countenance Popery,"
I am sorry they are brought in here. I wish you would
leave them out.
Sir William Coventry.] I profess, I intended no reflection, in what I said, upon Ernly. I am sorry he had
cause to apprehend it. That Gentleman sees and
knows more than a Country Gentleman, of the obstructions that this Address would make to our preparations against the French. When I had any thing to
do in the Exchequer, they were inconsiderable that were
convicted of that number, &c. But I do not remember
any obstruction in levying the penalties upon Recusants.
There was never any Order by a general direction
for levying of the two thirds of their Estates, and as to
letting loose all those who had passed away their Estates in
trust, and thereby giving an indemnity to all the Papists
in England, who have no lands at all, I never remember any such thing.
Col. Birch.] We have an Army now raised, and
some of them are gone beyond sea. Of those there were
neglects in giving the Oaths, &c. and of those here
left behind few have taken the Test. Mr Baynes, the
Muster-master, said here, three or four Companies had.
Now they have so much Money for raising their men,
and Subsistence-Money, and we look not upon them as
Soldiers, till they are closed in the Muster-Roll; and
that may be not till after Michaelmas. In Ireland there
are Popish Officers, and suppose all the Popish Officers
were to get into Flanders, in a heap, you would have
work then to some purpose. This induced the Committee
to put in the latter Clause. Pray put the Question, and
I hope we shall not have a Negative.
Mr Powle.] I hear much about Forces beyond sea, and
of rules given them. I hear one strange rule, "that our
Forces must stand uncovered, at the Host's passing by,
in their Processions." I would be secured from those
Forces bringing in Popery.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] This will be a great discouragement to those Forces, that go over to hazard their
lives to prevent the growth and power of the French
King, to have such a character put upon them, as if they
would bring in Popery. 'Tis told you over the way,
"That the Soldiers have Subsistence-Money, and that
the Muster Roll is not closed." But 'tis not the Officer has
that Money, but the Soldier, and the Officer takes the
Tests. This reason, at the latter end of the Address, invalidates all your other reasons, as if the former reasons
had no strength without the latter. I would leave it out.
Sir Thomas Meres] I agree with Musgrave, that all
you have said before has no reason in comparision of this,
&c. The point, in short, is this; if you will carry on
the safety of the Nation, you must carry on your Religion; if you carry not on your Religion, you are broken
and disjointed, and farewell all! I would not have it
thought, that, within this House, there should be any inclination to Popery. And in that I cannot be mistaken.
I have always thought that this House is the bulwark of
the Protestant Religion, and ever will be.
Sir Adam Brown.] I believe, if Popery ever comes in,
it will by the French. We send out of England Church
of England-men, and we leave Papists and Fanatics behind. What are they that stay at home? Papists and
Fanatics are not free to fight. Nor will they undergo
any Civil employment, or office, and have all the favour
of ease, of charge, and trouble. I will venture my life
and fortune, if you will go extraordinary ways, and I
would very unwillingly give my Negative to it.
Sir Edmund Jennings.] Putting such a stop upon
Money now in this manner cannot stop the growth of
the power of France, of which there ought to be all the
care and diligence that may be. If there has been neglect
from the inferior Officers, who managed the Exchequer,
reflection ought not to be upon the superior, who
managed the Exchequer. There was not that care taken
by the former Lord Treasurer, as now.
On a division, the last Clause was agreed to, 129 to 89.
[Ordered, That the Members of this House, that are of the
Privy Council, do humbly desire of his Majesty, that the original
Proposals of Peace, Dispatch, and Instructions, sent over into
France by Lord Feversham, and the Answer of the French
King, may be communicated to the House.]
Tuesday, April 30.
Sir John Coventry.] Complains that his footman's
head was broke by one of Sir Charles Wheeler's Captains.
He added, I speak for the Privilege of all the Commons
of England, and, for ought I know, these men are raised
for an imaginary War. These red coats may fight against Magna Charta.
Mr Mallet.] This Gentleman was once assaulted in
his person, (fn. 7) and now he is in his servant. I would have
it enquired into.
Sir Eam. Wyndham, Knight Marshal,] Takes exceptions at Coventry's words of "an imaginary War," and
would have them explained.
Sir Nu Carew.] We have Soldiers in England now,
and they were raised to be sent abroad, and they are kept
here: There's an explanation for you.
Mr Williams.] Drums ought not to be beat here, and
red coats to be about the Parliament, in terrorem populi.
Sir Robert Carr.] These Soldiers were raised by your
Advice, and I hope you will give them leave to march
upon their Duties, and come to Westminster-Hall, to take
the Tests appointed by Act of Parliament.
Sir Tho. Clarges.] It is the ancient Law of Parliament,
that armed Men should not be about, nor near the Parliament, in terrorem povult, to disturb your Members in
their Attendance; and I move to have the matter enquired into, and that you would justify your Privileges.
Mr Williams.] Martial Law has no place, but when
Westminster-Hall is shut up, and the King's Writs cannot have their free Course.
Sir Wm Coventry.] Since the Captain, on one side, is
of a good Family, and the information is of a Member's
servant, on the other, being beaten, I would have the
Sir John Coventry.] My servant is at the Door, to justify
the thing, and if you'll have such Captains in employment, you may.
Sir Philip Harcourt.] Your Member's affirmation is
sufficient; 'tis conviction enough. Coventry said, "he was
going to do his Duty in Parliament, and therefore the
Captain broke his man's head." I wonder the Speaker
is so slow in doing his Duty. I would have Coventry's
man called in.
The Speaker.] When complaint is made of a Member's
being assaulted, you immediately send for the person
that did it, in custody. This is upon a Member's servant,
in the Member's presence; and 'tis the same thing, and
there is equal Privilege. But this is from an information
to your Member. If you call the man in, you must
instruct me with Questions to ask him.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Always in this case, 'tis the custom
for the Speaker to ask Questions at his discretion, and if
he do it short, he is told of it, and the person is called
Coventry's footman was called in, and said, "The soldiers struck
the coach-horses, and he did alight from behind the coach, and
asked them, Who was the Captain of the company? Upon that,
the Captain struck him over the head, but he did not tell him
that his master was a Parliament-man."
The thing went off, without farther proceeding. (fn. 8)
Mr Harwood.] I wonder at the sending Lord Duras
[Earl of Feversham] into France; the only man that
should not have been sent with the Treaties to the French
King. I would see what he brought back with him in
Sir Robert Carr.] What Lord Duras carried over was
verbatim, what he had orders for; and he had nothing to
bring back, but Aye, or No; and it would have been
ridiculous to have brought that back in writing.
Some quarrel being apprehended between Mr Arundel, a
Member, as a kinsman of Capt. Arundel's, who struck Sir John
Mr Vaughan said.] No man can take the Justice of this
House upon himself, when the House must have the
satisfaction of an offence done against their Privilege.
Coventry, has declared, "That he intended no reflection
upon Mr Arundel's family, in what he said of the Captain;" which I think is personal satisfaction, though the
case is the House's, and not his.
Sir Thomas Lee.] The Speaker would do well to invite these two Gentlemen to dinner, and take engagements from them to proceed no farther; as has formerly
been done in such cases.
The Speaker.] The House ought to make Judgment
on the Words spoken here as to itself: Coventry, has said,
"that he intended no reflection, &c." and they must
both acquiesce in the Determination of the House. And
if they please to come and dine with me, they shall
both be very welcome.
Sir John Trevor.] I never saw the Speaker speak to
a Member with his hat on before, when the Member
stood by with his hat off; unless the Member was at the Bar—
The Speaker did ask several Members how he should deport himself, and was so informed.
[Debate on the Treaties resumed.]
Mr Garroway.] If Lord Duras has brought back
nothing from France in writing, then you gave your
Money for nothing.
Mr Sec. Williamson.] For you to go out of the War,
without leave of the Allies, is a point the States will not
come up to—Their Ambassadors had no Instructions;
nor to the going over of our Forces; and this was the
Reason of the Adjournment. The Gentleman that's
come over gives a sad account of things. The people
in Holland have an extreme aversion to the War, and
how unsufferable soever the Terms of Peace from France
are, yet considering the slowness of the Confederates,
and the ill payment of Spain, his Masters concluded that
these French conditions were aucunement tolerable. As to
force, they say, "They are obliged to assist the Emperor,
and Spain, with twelve or fourteen thousand men, if
they can;" and upon our kind engagement of 90 ships,
and 20,000 men to go into Flanders, the States will
continue those Forces they have in Flanders already—
For our Forces, the King did, by Mr Hyde, propose a
concert of 90 ships, and the land forces, &c. and they
to continue the same army out; at least, as many men as
they had the three last years: All this they would not
come up to; of all which you may have the particulars, if you please.
Mr Vaughan.] I wonder at one thing, that we should
propose 90 ships; whereas the proposition should have
come from them who wanted the assistance.
Mr Sec. Williamson.] It will appear, upon farther enquiry, that the King has been forced to lead in all this
Sir Thomas Meres.] It was told us, that it was a concert, and so 90 ships on our part; but for that 50 had
been sufficient; which was, it seems, only an inducement for us to give money.
Mr Powle.] The Treaties, it seems, were made, but
the principal things were left out. We suppose all the
Transactions are extant, and, therefore, I would see those
of Lord Duras brought to the Committee.
Sir Wm Coventry.] I would not put more hardships
on the honourable persons than needs must. The House
must authorize them, before they can bring any Treaties.
God knows, too much time has been lost, and I would
lose no more. As to the concert spoken of, I would
willingly see something of that. I suppose that was a
proposition of 90 ships, &c. If so, 'tis a very fair proposition, for us "to lead," as Williamson says, and 'tis a
matter of great frankness in us to offer the most first.
To get money, foreigners will go upon it—The concert
begins with obliging himself about the beginning of January. But the Dutch running into a Peace is but of
twelve or fourteen days, but of that concert something
the Dutch surely did say of land forces. The burden
must lie upon us, else, if it be a War; the States answer all with their extreme poverty, and they cannot
come up to it. The Confederacy must go into their
holes, ask pardon, and submit; and Holland must submit too; and, perhaps, the French Ambassador will be
greater at the Hague than the Prince of Orange. The
King of France, for the present, rests, and when he'll
awake, God knows: I know not. I hope they that
brought us in, will bring us out. I know not the way, I
assure you. We want a little of their advice and skill,
to help us out. We met in the middle of January, and
now 'tis the latter end of April, and though we are but
upon imperfect conclusions, yet I should be glad to see
what the States have done, in writing, (though unpolished)
with us all this while.
Col. Birch.] I take it for granted, that Williamson
has power to produce us papers: If he has not, he may
desire the King's leave, that he may communicate what
he has requisite for our enquiry.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I have no such power without the King's leave.
Mr Vaughan.] No wonder if the States flew off from
our proffer of 90 ships, for no Nation could bear that
number. I would see what Answer the States have made
to that Proposition.
Sir John Ernly.] Perhaps, 90 ships, in their low
condition, are more than they could come up to. I would
have you see that Answer of the Dutch.
Sir Wm Coventry.] If the French King should come
up to these Propositions, he could not answer them; they
would not please his people; and I hope that will be in
fashion here too, amongst other things. Else I could
wish this Proposition had never been sent.
Mr Garroway.] The King of France has answered,
"That the Proposition will not please his people;" and
shall we pass these things off, without seeing papers? I
cannot believe that the Ministers would not put these
things in their papers.
Mr Sec. Williamson.] Lord Feversham's Answer was to
be Aye, or No, from the French King, and he could not do
it for fear of displeasing his people. Will you think it for
your service to insist upon what's before you in the Treaty?
[Adjourned to May the 2d.]