Saturday, May 4.
Debate on the Treaties resumed.
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I told you yesterday "that
the matter of the Alliances rested in what the Dutch
Ambassadors would resolve;" and last night they met with
the Lords, &c. and there discoursed. At the first Conference ended the proposition of Nimeguen, that the
time might be prolonged. The Lords made answer,
"That the King would not hearken to these propositions,
nor to a longer time." The Lords (because the thing
was of great weight) would put the thing in writing;
but to that the Dutch Ambassadors answered plainly,
"They had no orders to give any thing in writing, and
they would not." This is the Answer to what they asked.
Next it was proposed, "What is it that Holland can do
towards a War, any thing more or less? And by what
means they would be enabled to do any thing?" They
answered, "Nettement, clearly, we are not able to speak
to this point. With your Questions we shall acquaint
our Masters. The Lords then gave them in writing,
viz. "What they could do towards a War, and then for
the prohibition of trade, & that they would give an account
to their Masters of the Alliances proposed." The Ambassadors could not then well excuse themselves from writing
their Answer. But as for the Conference this morning, I
have not yet had an account of it.
Col. Birch.] The matter is now, what is to be done
upon the Debate adjourned yesterday; and from the
report of the honourable person of the Conference with
the Dutch Ambassadors, I know not what to say.
Though I am not the youngest in years here, I am in
experience, and therefore I shall begin to speak my mind.
The matter and the causes were taken ill to be complicated, but I cannot well see how to separate the matter
from the causes of it. I rather begin so, because of an
accident that happened yesterday—(Goring) I am willing
to pass it by, because the person has not sat so long here
as most of us; else I believe the words would not have
fallen from him. Examine, pray, whether this matter
we are upon, is not cut out by the same thread as former
things have been. Few Gentlemen, I believe, but think
we are out of the way; so that the most natural Question is, when were we in the way? I answer, it was then
when the Triple League was made, and a sum of Money
was given for it; and not long after 'twas broken,
and so broken as perhaps neither this age nor
the former can parallel. This was broken, but
whether well or ill done, I leave you to judge. I'll
bring this down to what I would say; what then followed upon this? We fell presently to a conjunction
with the French King. First, at sea, we taught them to
fight, and the use of our ports, and to build ships; and
sent them our men to assist them; and 'tis no new thing
to tell you what the cries of this House were then against
it. Whether this was done amiss, or no, I must leave
to you to judge—When this was done, away go the
French with running all over before them, and when the
French King thought himself sure of us, he went to the
bottom, and set up Popery in all his Protestant conquests: And one of our Articles with him was, "That
that of Popery must be fulfilled in all points." If I
am out in this, I would be told of it; and as the Text
speaks of Sennacherib, God put a hook in his nose, and led
him back by the way by which be came
(fn. 1) . These Confederates were more alarmed for their civil interest, than
for Religion. They entered into a Confederacy, but such a
one as needed not to invite England into it. I never yet
read but that all the points of our interest were contrary
to France. But yet we made ourselves parties; and
Forces were sent over to the assistance of France. And
this is no jesting matter. If this had been only to give
France some encouragement against such a great Confederacy, it might have been something. But for us to
send conquering Forces, amazes me; and now the King
cries to the House, and the House to him. We have
had Patience with a witness. The King sent his Proclamation to recall those men out of France, and what
did they do? Did they come? No such matter. They
came not, and, for a reward of their disobedience, those
very officers did raise more men in Scotland and Ireland.
This being thus over, first, we touched the thing gently;
and I will tell you we had a kind of reprimand for it, we
spoke so mincingly. But when we did speak home,
there was never such a thing said to the Commons of
England; and we were sent home with the Speech, you
remember, pinned to our backs. And had the people
had no better opinion of us than those that sent us home, we
had been so whipped as we were never in our lives before.
The Prince of Orange was then sent for over to be treated
with. I think, we are much beholden to the penners
of this Speech [the King's] that let us know so clearly
every step that has been made. When they penned the
project for France, 'twas intended we should see it;
which has made a perfect breach almost betwixt the
States and us. Now this is over, I will speak my mind,
as if I was to answer it at the Great Tribunal. I never
yet spoke as if I had a fear that that little I have should
be taken away from me, or that I desire to get more.
Did not we declare that the Nation could not be safe,
unless we either took the French Fleet, or they gave it us
to burn? Can this be upheld under 100,000 men?
And can we sit safe thus? Whatever Peace we have, it
will be infinitely worse than a War—Then I pressed it hard
to enter into the Confederacy, and they gave us leave to
come in, if we would. So that when the House
stumbled upon the Pyrenean Treaty, it seems, we were
in the dark, and came nearer the matter. A project
was sent from France, and now we are in the light—And
see! in the dark we were near the matter. We pressed
to see the League, and the King's Quota, and the King
is to set out 90 Ships, and the Dutch 30. A concert it
was indeed, but it was with one string only. The burden
lay upon us. Upon these accounts, we have raised arms
and money; and noble persons in the Houses took commissions; and we would trust all in their hands. But all
this while, who must we fight with? Fears and Jealousies
arose in the Dutch from these preparations, & dealings with
the Prince of Orange, and I wish from my soul, we have
not the worst of it. Now for what must we fight?
Against Brandenbourg, because he will not make Peace
with the Swede; and Spain, because he will not give up
all to the French or the Germans, &c? This very Peace,
that little we see of it, is worth millions in behalf of
the French King; and rather than I would give one
shilling for it, I would give 500l. against it. Now the
Question is concerning this Alliance, offensive and defensive, into which we would have the Dutch enter.
When a beggar has got a tone, he can scarce leave it—
The Dutch tell us, their poverty is the case—I would
never say what we would not do, but what we would do.
If, by reason of their poverty, they cannot come in with 60
Ships, I would take them with 20; and take them
upon the old League. I am amazed that we make all
this beating and bushing when we might have come into the Confederacy if we would. Whether this new
Treaty be a better, or a worse, than that of Nimeguen,
I know not; but we were told by him that made the
King's Speech, "that we were come into Alliances." I
protest I am glad the French King cannot, and will not
accept what we proposed to him by Lord Feversham;
for should he, the next day we are ruined. Suppose
the French King had accepted the propositions, what
had been the consequence?—A chain of Alliances
broken, and perhaps the wisest Prince in Christendom
would not be able to piece it again. But now we have
it, I would keep it upon any Terms. After all this
I have said, the Question is, whether this League
before you be pursuant to the Addresses of this House?
We were told so, and I, like other good-natured men,
believed it; and now we find not a word of it so.
Therefore, I am for voting presently, "That this League
offensive and defensive, &c. is not agreeable to the Addresses of this House, nor the safety of the Nation."
Sir Philip Monckon.] Seconds the Motion.
Sir John Hotham.] I like Birch's Motion so well, and
it has been backed with so good reason, that I move we
may vote "That these Leagues are not pursuant to our
Addresses, and are not for the good of the Nation."
And then I am sure we shall not be obliged to give money to maintain them.
(fn. 2) .] Yesterday we adjourned, in hopes of
some satisfactory account of the Conference with the Ambassadors last night, and I hoped that Lord Feversham
and Mr Churchill's Answers, &c. might have been imparted to us to-day, and the rather I hoped it, because it
was told us, "That whatever we desired should be communicated to us." But seeing this only is before us, I
look upon it as a device to bring us into a Vote for
that black design they have been hatching these ten
years, and they want nothing but a Vote of this
House to accomplish it. I hope we shall take warning
by former evils, and not be too hasty in what we do.
I cannot understand that arcanum of Prerogative, "That
we may not see more, &c." It was told you, "That
you must not see them." I do suspect that, because we
may not see them, there is some pernicious matter in
them—And it is sad, that great men are not called to
an account, and when the safety of some particular men
is preferred before the good of the Nation. I have the
heart of an Englishman, and courage to declare it. I
cannot say this is for the interest of the Nation. We
are told, "It is better to have this Peace than none."
I am for a War, if it be but for employing these new-raised
men any where. It is strange there should be such haste
to raise these men, and now we have nothing but towards Peace; the matter before us is not what advice
we are to give the King, but what we shall declare upon
these Treaties. We are either to like or disapprove
them. No man can have the confidence to say he likes
them. If we be silent, that seems to give consent; and
therefore, as I would declare these Leagues are not agreeable to the Nation, nor the interest of the Kingdom,
so I think I did not serve the King and Kingdom if I
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I beg leave to think, that
is not, and should not, be the Question before you. If
the business before you be recommended by the King,
'tis for matter of your Advice, and not matter of Probation, or Reprobation only. I will bring you back,
if you please, to that which should be your Question,
and I shall speak plain; that this is not your proper
Question before you, and a very great disservice to you.
I will not undertake to know more than others know;
but I will tell you Holland's impatience to be in any
Peace. But yet any one they can get is infortunate to
England, if we are left alone, and stand as we do now,
and nothing will put them sooner upon it than that
Vote you are moved to. The King has called them
"Treaties for the Preservation of the Spanish Netherlands, offensive and defensive," and whether you
will supply the King, or not supply him, is in your
judgment, but I hope the House will not undertake
to judge what is good and necessary in Treaties, for
the good of England. I confess, the Treaties are
not what I could wish, but when this is the only
Treaty you can get from Holland, and the best you
can ever bring them up to again, though they be not
what we wish, yet [they are] in pursuance of what
we wish—He that follows at a mile's distance, follows.
One Gentleman wishes for "the Triple Alliance," and
that is quite on another foot, and another kind. By
that Treaty, Holland would have been very ill put to
it, and other places; Aids must come to them a great
way, and at great expence; but now, whether out of
necessity, or humour, Holland will not come up to any
War, but what must conduce to a sudden Peace. Now,
what is best for you to do? I will considently say, not
that Vote you are going to pass. Their impatience for
Peace is so great, that by all we can hear from any
hands, they are near the extravagance of 1672. Something
from this House, to prevent that, would be very natural.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] I move that you would state
the Question, having been so many times firsted, seconded, and thirded.
Sir William Coventry.] The light Williamson has brought
us in is not all we have reason to hope for. But 'tis
not so dark, but it has given us some light; 'tis plain,
that if they were going out of the Confederacy, they
would not make any Proposition; some Towns are lost,
and our Army going—That they should be unprepared
for Propositions; no man shall make me believe it. It
is plain they are going out of the Confederacy—Though
I would not give them any provocation to go out, yet
I would take my Measures as if they were. 'Tis my
tenderness in this matter. If they are not going out, at
this time of the year, I see no hopes the Dutch will continue. If they go out, thus stands the case: There is
a Confederacy of all the German Princes (except the
Duke of Bavaria) Spain and Brandenbourg all in Alliance against France. If this Alliance be dissolved, are
you securer? Can any hand we have in this Peace be a
permanent security to us? After the French King has
made a War, because of the diminution de sa gloire,
with whomsoever withstands his taking his neighbours
Countries, the States shall have all their Country again,
but he could swallow his neighbour's Country. So I
look upon it that as soon as the Confederacy is dissolved, France has you at his Mercy. Let no man think
the Confederacy can be raised again when once dissolved.
It would be the most joyful thing to all the Princes of
the Continent, for the King of France to employ his
Arms upon an attempt against England. They then
may breathe awhile. The danger is so near us, and so
irresistible, because we have so few friends. I could
wish we had clearer lights in this matter, but yet we
had better go into a War, than be swallowed up by a
Peace. Therefore I would address the King "to go
into a War, till the safety of the Nation may be better
Mr Vaughan.] When that was said, "that we should
have all the Treaties before us to advise the King upon,"
and now that we are told, "we cannot judge them,"
I cannot reconcile that. We have had Laws repealed by
the King's Declaration; and we have made Addresses to
the King for stopping the Growth of France, which was
confessed inconsistent with our safety; and Forces were
sent into France from hence; and yet no body is to
blame. We joined with the French Ships to cut our
own throats. And as there were no Articles that the
French Ships should fight, so I fear there is none to
have your men again. If you agree to this, you legitimate all the crimes that have been done. From hence,
safety should come out of our doors, but by this Advice proposed ruin will come to the Nation. Dare you
not call this Treaty what is proposed? If you do not,
you legitimate the League. This is the Question, and
pray put it.
Lord Cavendish.] The honourable person, (Williamson)
yesterday made a long discourse in his own vindication, &c. I have a respect for him, but I believe him
never the more innocent for that. The project of
a Treaty, as it is, goes on dangerously for the liberty of
the Nation. As he has justified himself, so I would
have others. If he would tell us who penned the King's
Answers to our Addresses, and made these Treaties,
that would purge him. I would express our sense of
this League, and then I hope the Confederates will come
readily in to us.
Sir Edward Dering.] To say, "that these Leagues
are in pursuance to our Addresses," that expression
would be harsh, and "prejudicial to the good of the
Nation and the people" is so too. You may advise
the King to enter into an Alliance with the Emperor,
and the King of Spain, and so use endeavours to bring
the Dutch to a farther Alliance with us, for suppressing
the Growth of the French. But for the present, these
are the best Leagues that could be got.
Mr Boscawen.] You are moved "for making Alliances with, &c." and you are told "these are the best
that could be got, &c." It seems not so to me. Holland
has the greatest reason to hold to the Emperor and the
King of Spain, because they assisted her in her distress.
It is a strange thing they should be as free in the
Treaty with us, who were in effect enemies as to them.
They have no assurances from us, but these Treaties,
and no man has the confidence to say that these Treaties
were in pursuance of your Addresses. Therefore I propose the Question moved for.
Mr Powle.] I lay it down as fundamental, that
nothing is more desirable to the King of France than
this Treaty. He is willing to part with some Towns,
to have a legal Title to the rest, and is willing to go
back to rest him, to be able to take another step. 'Twas
opened yesterday (by Downing) how prejudicial it was
to us the parting with Dunkirk. This Treaty is as bad
for Holland. They are not at all secured by it from the
French King, who restored them little or nothing.
Sweden was to have more restored him than the
French King had to restore the Spaniard in Flanders;
that is, Pomerania. I would be answered temperately,
from whence this Article came of "our compelling
totis viribus?" In case of a failure on the part of Spain,"
we must fall on Spain totis viribus. That Article came
not out of Holland; out of England, surely. We are,
when this Peace is made, Guarantees for it; and always
force must be kept on foot. And this will be a colour
to keep up a standing Army in England. No man
can deny this Peace to be infinitely prejudicial to England. But 'tis said, "we must not condemn it, for fear
of Holland, who desires Peace." I fear Holland is going
out of the Alliance, but I justly imagine they are so,
England making their own bargain for some time towards Peace; and if there must be a Peace, they will
not let England have the advantage of making it. Say
we, "Let us have the making of it." "I will not meddle
with you," say they, "till you are off from the Peace
with France by your secret Negotiations now on foot.
When this is done, we will enter into Debates what is
fit to be done, that there be no clashing amongst the
Confederates." The Council makes the King's Speech,
and we ought to show the King how he is abused; and
till you show the World, that you will not build on so
rotten a foundation, they will not join with you, till
you condemn it with dislike.
Mr Waller.] A Question was stated to you for condemnation of this Treaty, and giving the King more
salubrious counsel. The Dutch were in this very Project of Treaty with France, &c. and wanted excuses for
it; and now we shall furnish them with excuses, a lesson they are willing to learn! You yourselves start from
it. We have thirty Ambassadors and Ministers from
crowned heads in London, who observe our actions. I
have sat in Parliament a great while; and shall I begin
now with finding fault? What will these Ambassadors
say? "The Parliament have sat a week upon these Treaties, and what have they produced? They have found
great fault, but have advised nothing." Let us have
union. Our Advice drained Holland, when under water,
and got them their Towns again. By your Advice of
breaking trade with France, their interest in Sicily was
lost. That was the result of your union. I would
have the King given affirmative Advice. Any thing
rather than this of finding fault.
Mr Garroway.] You have been told "you have many
foreign Ministers here." I am glad of it, that they
may see how sensible the Commons of England are of
this Treaty. I would throw away this project that has
been a tool in some mens hands. New bottles for new
wine, to be on the old hanks no more. You will be prevented in this, if you prevent not prevention itself. You,
by it, unite all here; you encourage all the World;
you will make the Confederacy as strong with you, as
Holland. Where is your fear, to hanker thus on this
Project? I would condemn this Project, and vote it out,
and then advise the King, &c. and for that reason I
would vote it out.
Sir George Downing.] As to that Article, in the Project,
concerning Sweden having all they lost in Pomerania restored, and that the French shall retain what they have
in Sicily, by way of pledge and caution for it, till the
Articles are concluded from Sweden, and whatever else
may be reasonably proposed for Flanders, there is a
place called Fribourg, and all the Dutchy of Lorrain—
What do I know, but by this Treaty we are engaged
to break with the Emperor? Can an Englishman have
a thought to any thing of this kind? This may run us
into a War with Holland, the Emperor, and all the
World. As to the Treaty, you have my opinion. But
for your present proceeding, what is to be done? Plainly,
if the Dutch come up to this Project, I would brand
it, before I go out of the House; but they are far from
that. But for you to do an act where no immediate
necessity obliges you, but where the honour of the King
is at stake, and know not yet the result of another Treaty
with the Ambassadors—It is always in your power to
damn this Treaty when you please. I would let this
be as a tie upon the Hollander. I would not go too
forward, nor backward, in resolving, &c. What hurt is
there in it, to move the King for farther light?
Sir Thomas Littleton.] An appignoration is not reasonable, unless it be a sufficient pledge for what is engaged for extra Belgium. The nature of the thing is
such, that if it be agreed that the King of France is in so
terrible a posture, the nature of the thing will require keeping up a standing Army, besides the usual caution; and
by this Treaty we shall be naturally obliged to it. We
need no farther testimony of the thing, for the Treaty
itself is felo de se; and I would put the Question proposed.
Mr Papillon.] I would not hold the Dutch in this
Treaty one hour longer. You are told that the French
have refused it, so the King is disengaged as to them,
and likewise to the Dutch. It is for the King's honour
now to take new measures; and he is ready for your
Advice. Therefore since the House does not like this
Treaty, now is your time to do it. And I would, without an hour's delay.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] If you stay till Monday, it will
be too late to give your opinion upon this Treaty. A
secret Council has been held, which the King knows
not of, at Lord St Albans's Chamber; Monsieur Rouvigny,
Mr Barillon, and a great Minister of the King's, held
it, and Rouvigny is gone into France with the result of
that Council. And I believe the King knows nothing
of it, because you are not acquainted with it. Rouvigny
may be quickly with the French King: And it may be
too late to do any thing on Monday. I would therefore
have the Question put, "That the League offensive and
defensive with the Dutch, and the Articles relating
thereunto, are not pursuant to our Addresses, nor consistent with the good and safety of the Kingdom.
On a division of the House, the previous Question was carried in the affirmative, 166 to 150, and it was then Resolved,
That the League offensive and defensive with the States General
of the United Provinces, with the Articles relating thereunto,
are not pursuant to the Addresses of this House, nor consistent
with the good and safety of the Kingdom.
Sir Henry Capel.] I think the Debate to-day has
been a concurrent Debate. I will take the liberty therefore to offer a Question, viz. "That the humble Advice of this House be offered to the King, that he will
be graciously pleased to enter into the general Confederacy against the French King, and that the King be
humbly desired not to make any separate League with
Sir Thomas Lee.] I would have it expressed as to a
League you would have made, as many of them as you
can get to surround Holland; that it may be done seemingly to know what we do is sufficient for saving of
Flanders; and we must talk not only of saving, but
Sir Thomas Littleton.] This was a fatal mistake of
sending Lord Feversham—Upon recollection, the States
were presented with the Project from France; and this
is in dimunition of that faith of the Hollanders. But
'tis well they repent of it, though too late. The error
was not in making the first, but in the second. It is
a common observation, that if a man have any spark
of grace left, he will grow religious in his distress. Let
us not tempt other men to break their faith; let us go
upon the common fate of the Confederacy; let us be a
party, and do justly and honestly, and resume that
honest opinion we were of formerly.
Mr Garroway.] I am for the thing, but I find difficulty in the thing. Therefore be careful to word it.
Possibly we are a little too hasty to word it, before we
know how to word it, if we word it to-night. But because we may not hazard by delay, I would have an
Order made, for Monday Morning, "to debate the thing
of entering into a League for the good and safety of the
Kingdom, and support of the Confederates."
Sir William Coventry.] I would have no delay in this
matter. If the Confederates see that we are in earnest,
to join with them, &c. and believe what we believe;
if so principal a Member of the Confederacy, as Holland
is, be going out, and that not supplied by something as
considerable, every man, as fast as he can, will cry
quarter from France, and get as good conditions as he
can. The French, perhaps, will not be backward
to tell the Confederates, "That this League is disliked,
but you have put nothing in the place of it, and you expose yourselves to this League; the Parliament of England has voted down what you have done, and advised
the King nothing." And I know not what effect this
may have in England also. But be pleased to come to
this, "That 'tis your advice that the King enter into
the Confederacy to suppress the French greatness;" and
order a Committee to form an Address to the King
to that effect.
[The House adjourned for a quarter of an Hour, and] according to the Debate, a Committee withdrew, and worded this
Address, reported by Sir Thomas Meres: "That it is the Opinion of this House, that his Majesty be humbly advised, and
desired forthwith to enter into the present Alliances and Confederations with the Emperor, [and the] King of Spain, and
[the] States General of the United Provinces, for the vigorous
carrying on of the [present] War against the French [King]
and for the good and safety of his Majesty's Kingdoms; [and]
particularly, that [effectual] endeavours be used for continuing
the States General in the present Confederation; and that it
be agreed by all the parties confederate to prohibit all trade between their Subjects and Countries, and [France, and all other]
the Dominions of the French King [And] that no Commodities of France, or [any of the] Dominions of the French
King, be imported into their Countries, from any place whatsoever: And also, that all endeavours be used to invite all other
Princes and States into the said Confederation: And that no
Truce, or Peace, be made with the French King, by his Majesty, or any of the Confederates, without general consent first
Sir Thomas Clarges.] In this Address, I would not
exclude Denmark and Brandenbourg. Restrain it to
those in the present Confederacy, without any complication.
Mr Sacheverell.] The Emperor, Spain, and Holland,
are the three material parties, that you aim at, doubtless;
the rest will come in, if you leave them a latitude. No
man but is sensible that Counsels have been guided by
persons that wish you not well; therefore I would add
to this Address, "That if any of the Ministers, or any
other of your Majesty's subjects, shall advise you to the
contrary, they may be judged as enemies to your Majesty and People."
Sir Eliab Harvey.] I like the words so well, that I
would have them added to the Question; and I second
Sir Nicholas Carew.] I move, "That if his Majesty
has any Advice to the contrary, that you would desire
the King to be pleased to let you know who they are,
that do so advise him."
Mr Garroway.] The King has sent to you for your
Advice, and those you represent must bear the burden
of it; some body has been the cause that your Advice
has not been taken, and will not you give the Advice,
you are moved to? You would not stay this Address
till Monday, lest evil Counsel should interpose, and therefore I would add these words moved.
Sir John Hotham.] I am positively of opinion, though
I cannot point at particular persons, (but if I see footsteps, I believe men have been there) that Money must
be given; and how shall we hope things will be well
managed, if by persons that have already so miscarried?
I know not who they are; but you need not scruple
this addition to the Address, moved for, since all we
have is at stake. I third the Motion for that addition to the Address; and I will not be tender in this
Sir Thomas Littleton.] I would not have those words
in, "all other Princes." How do you know that all
the Confederate Princes Agents here have instructions?
Many of the Princes concerned have no Ambassadors here at all. And this is the primary and principal part of your Address. And you put the King
upon a quarter of a year's work to fulfill your desires.
The three Confederates, Spain, Holland, and the Emperor, have all their Ambassadors here, and in two or
three days the King may know their resolution—Else,
you hang the thing on a hedge, and leave it loose, and
your ends are in no way accomplished.
Sir Thomas Meres.] The reason in short is, that you
may have some effect of your Army this summer—The
words of "The King of Denmark, and the Duke of
Brandenbourg," may be added. Their Ambassadors
are here. As for the Allies, they are present in the
Mr Powle.] I can never expect that all we aim at
can be done at a time. The three Princes will be a
good step for the first. You may else be engaged in a
quarrel with Brandenbourg and Denmark. Therefore I
cannot agree to those words of "Confederation."
Mr Secretary Williamson.] I desire to ask, whether
the Prohibition of Trade with France does answer your
expectation, as to the Consumption of the Commodities? Else you will not answer your ends.
Sir Thomas Lee.] Now you are upon the Prohibition
of Trade, I would read the Address, paragraph by
paragraph. Something I would have for the farther
assurance of the Dutch. You do this as a Land-mark,
I conceive; that they may not have the Trade of the
whole World from you. Therefore I would have it
general; not only to France but his Allies. The same
time Holland makes a Peace with France, he is an Ally,
and then you are in new trouble.
The Address passed as above.
Sir Thomas Clarges] I move, that, because great
Counsels are in agitation, we may make all the haste
that can be, and that some of the Members of the
Privy Council present your former Vote to the King
with this Address of Advice.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I think it better to present it by
the whole House, and 'tis more for your honour to take
that way, and it will have more weight in it.
Sir Thomas Littleton] If we go to the King in a
body, this will not be effected till Tuesday, or Wednesday, and many things may intervene.
Mr Powle.] I would not have the Committee draw
up the Address; it is needless; for if the Speaker present it to the King, he may speak it in the manner of
Mr Saville.] The King desires your speedy Advice,
and in things speedy they cannot have the Ceremony
as in other things. Therefore I would have the Privy
Council this night present your Address to the King.
Mr Hampden.] If this Address has not all the form
and solemnity that things of this nature usually have,
you may regularly communicate this Vote to the King,
by the Members of the Privy Council, who may acquaint the King, "That we hope that his Majesty will
excuse that want of form usual in things of this nature;
by reason of the emergency of the affair, and the exigency of time."
Which was ordered accordingly.
Monday, May 6.
Sir Robert Sawyer, Speaker, excused himself, by Letter, from
farther Attendance on that Service, by reason of indisposition,
and Mr Edward Seymour, the former Speaker, [having recovered his health] was chosen in his stead, [and approved
of by his Majesty.]
Mr Secretary Williamson.] In obedience to the command of the House, the Privy Counsellors attended
the King with the Vote and Address, and desired
his Majesty's excuse, "That it was not done with
that Form and Solemnity usual, and the House humbly begged his pardon, &c." The King commanded
me to present the House his Answer to the Address.
It being under the King's own hand, I beg leave to
present it at the Table:
"His Majesty having been acquainted with the Votes of this
House of the fourth instant, was very much surprized, both
with the Matter and Form of them. But if his Majesty had
had exception to neither, yet his Majesty, having asked the
Advice of both Houses, does not think fit to give any Answer
to any thing of that nature, till he hath a concurrent Advice of
both Houses. Given at the Court at Whitehall the 6th day
of May, 1678."
Sir Thomas Meres.] In a matter of this great weight,
I know not what to propound. It was laid down as
a principal Matter of great haste; and therefore the Address was not sent his Majesty with the usual solemnity.
I know not how to hasten the Lords Advice, and the
King knows how to call upon them. This is a new
Matter; and since the safety of Christendom depends on
the safety of the Nation, I would consider how to hasten
the Lords Opinion, &c.
Mr Mallett.] There is no need of any Apology for
the Form of the Address, by reason of the haste, &c. I
think we gave faithful and cordial Advice from hence,
and in the regular way.
Sir Edmund Jennings.] On Saturday last, it was my
Opinion, that it was proper for us to go by the way
of the Lords Concurrence, and it is the usual manner
of such Addresses, because the King's Speech was directed to both Houses, and the most regular way is
joint Advice. And now you have sent your Vote to
the King, I know not whether it be proper to draw it
again, by way of Address, and desire the Lords Concurrence.
Sir Thomas Lee.] You must not wonder if I say, I
look upon this poor Kingdom as in a condition you cannot help, and I know not who will. It looks like the
rest of the Advices, when you were sent home, and
told, "That care should be taken of the Kingdom."
It looks as if those persons who made the Peace, would
take this occasion to rivet it. I look upon ourselves
as in a most miserable condition, and as if the same
hands that brought us into this misery would continue us
Sir Nicholas Carew.] I move to have my Lord Chancellor's last Speech reported and answered.
Sir John Hotham.] The Reporter from the Committee
of Privileges has several Reports to make, and that of
Religion is of main concern. I would have that reported.
Col. Birch.] I would be satisfied whether we have done
all that is to be done in this business before us. The
King is desirous that the Advice of both Houses may be
had, before he makes Answer, &c. I am a man for
plain dealing, and I would get what light I can into
this, &c. 'Tis talked that the States have made a separate Peace with France, but, in truth, their part of
it only; but it is hinted to you, that, if their principles
agree not, they will not conclude it. Their principal
thing that puts them into this Peace is the jealousy told
you on Saturday. As for their Government, they are
fond of that, and have apprehensions of the Prince of
Orange. Nothing can be so fatal to us as delay in this
great affair. As soon as we come to a bare resolution
we may expect effect. But if the King will have farther Advice from the Lords, I would have ours put
into a better form. I know the worst of it, and there's
nothing so pernicious to this Nation as the French Project, and no War so bad as this Peace. Therefore it is
fit for us to know the bottom of it. And I would
advise the King to send over into Holland to let them
know that what jealousies remain, &c. That all the
Confederates will be Guarantees for it. Now the Question is, whether the States will continue the War—If so,
under what Quota? If 90 Ships, which we cannot believe, and the men, either of these will do your business, and I would have the Lords Concurrence.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] The necessity of the affair
is unusual. To advise the King, in an Address, to try
if he can keep Holland in the Confederacy, is well moved,
and if they cannot come up to their Quota, to make it
up ourselves; and to desire the Concurrence of the
Mr Sacheverell.] I cannot agree with those Gentlemen in this Motion, at this instant of time, but when
'tis seasonable, I shall concur with them. We cannot
lay a stricter tie upon the Dutch than the Vote on Saturday about Trade with France Now, I would know
whether this Motion is not to undo what was done on
Saturday? And the King tells you, "He was surprized, &c." I would know what has surprized the
King, before we go any farther? Now, if the King expects the Lords and Commons Concurrence in Advice,
I would know how far we concur. Perhaps we
differ, so the staying one day for this may prevent entanglement betwixt the Lords and us, which may last
twenty days, which staying a little while may prevent.
Sir Thomas Lee.] I would have the Order for the Report read for this day, from the Committee of Privileges.
[It was read accordingly.]