House of Commons Journal Volume 1
21 March 1621

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1802

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'House of Commons Journal Volume 1: 21 March 1621', Journal of the House of Commons: volume 1: 1547-1629 (1802), pp. 566-568. URL: http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=525 Date accessed: 20 August 2014.


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Mercurii, 21o Martii

Ministers.

Ministers.

L. 1a. AN Act for the Explanation, and more due Execution, of the Decree. -

Upon the Question of Rejection the House divided :

Tellers for the Yea, Sir H. Poole, Sir Tho. Wentworth:

Tellers for the Noe, Sir Geor. More, Mr. Drake :

With the Yea, 67

With the Noe, 62

Difference 5.

Upon Question rejected.

Clergy Subsidies.

Lord Chief Baron and Justice Warberton bring from the Lords a Bill, intituled, An Act for Confirmation of the Subsidies granted by the Clergy. -

The Lords desire this House would expedite this Bill; because Letters Patents, for the King's Royal Assent, already ingrossed, cannot be sealed till this Bill have passed this House.

Cloth Trade.

L. 2a. - Cloth. -

Mr. Towerson . - All Search taken away by this Bill from the Merchant. 2ly, Taketh away Part of the Weight, viz. of Two Pound ; where the Goodness of the Cloth a principal Benefit to the Kingdom in Vent of Wools, &c.

- To add rather to the Weight, than take from it. -

The Tare already taken away from the Merchant. -

Committed to Sir Ro. Crane, Mr. Towerson, Lord Clifford, Mr. Clench, Knights and Burgesses of all Clothing Counties, Burgesses of Yorke, Mr. Salisbury: All, that will come, to have Voice : - To-morrow Afternoon, Exchequer Chamber.

Wadham College.

Mr. Hackwyll reporteth the Bill for Wadham College, with the Amendments, and a Schedule annexed. The Amendments, Proviso, and Addition, twice read.

- Engrossetur.

Clergy Subsidies.

The Act for the Confirmation of Three Subsidies, granted by the Clergy, once read. The Sum opened by Mr. Speaker. - Upon Question, passed.

Grievances - Illegal Patents.

Sir Edw. Coke, from the Committee for Grievances. - The Patent for dispensing with Pedlars, Rogues, ruled. by the Committee, to be a Patent of Grievance. The Referees, Lord Chancellor now, and Sir H. Yelverton. The Patent for Apprentices. - Goldsmyth the principal. The last, for Wills ingrossing, the worst of all. - Every Man dying, either maketh his Will, or dieth intestate. - The Subject hath Liberty, by the Law, to ingross his own Will: If intestate, the Subject hath Liberty to write his own Inventory, or get any other to do it. - Now every of these must come to Sir Ro. Floyde: -

He the sole Ingrossing of all Wills and Inventories ; so as the Subject cannot write his own Will, or Inventory. The Consequence hereof will extend to confining to some certain Scrivener, Butcher, Brewer. - 3 d. for every Line; which double as much as before. -

Trin. 41o Eliz. Rot. 92, a Charter to the Merchant-taylors of London, to make Ordinances; Who made an Order none of that Company should put their Cloth to any but a Member of their own Company. - Adjudged, if a Patent to this Purpose, it were void ; for a Patent cannot hinder the Liberty of the Subject in this Kind.

- Locrenses: - " No new Project, without an Halter about his Neck." - One Man had but One Eye, who threatened to put that Eye -

O tempora, o mores! - Sedet in senatu. - Sir Ro. Floyde the Projector. -

That the Referees in this Patent, to the Lord Chancellor, Chief Justice then, now Lord Treasurer, and Sir Ro. Nanton; who certified the King of the Lawfulness and Conveniency.

Upon Question, the Patent for Dispensing with the Statute of Rogues, and Licensing Pedlars, resolved a Grievance, both in origine, and executione; without One Negative.

So the Patent to dispense with the Statute 5 Eliz. concerning Apprentices; without One Negative.

For Sir Ro. Floyde his Patent: -

Sir James Perrott: - That this Patent not unlawful, in Respect of the Erection of a new Office. - That leaveth to the Lawyers. - For the Increasing the Charge of the Subjects: That the Proctors said it would be 10,000 l. out of their Way; and offered him the Fees of his Patent gratis, and they would execute it. -

Lord Chancellor Bacon.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That Gardyner's Man affirmeth that, Three Days before the Hearing of the Cause, the Lady Wharton put 100 l. in a Purse, went to Yorke-house, and, as she said after, gave it my Lord. That, in ... after, she put 200 l. more into a Purse, and took the Money from Gardener at Yorke-house, went in to my Lord, and, as she said, delivered it to my Lord; and had after presently the Decree.

Another Case ; Hull, and Holman. - Holman, refusing to answer, committed ; there lay 20 Weeks: After required to answer, and to give Bond of 20,000 l. to stand to my Lord Chancellor's Order in it. That one Manby, about the Exchange, dealt in this Business with Mr. Mewtys. That Holman, finding his Order vary, resolved to complain to this House. That, upon Friday last my Lord sent for Hull and Holman; offered to make an indifferent End between them: And that Holman told

Keeling, he was an happy Man now, he could have anything from my Lord Chancellor.

The other Case, between Smythwicke, and.... - Smythwicke was told, he must use some good Way : Came to Mr. Yong; promised my Lord 200 l. so as the Certificate might be decreed: Dealt after with Burrowes: He undertook to move my Lord. He heard the Cause : Part of the Award decreed. The 200 l. paid. - That, unless my Lord might have 100 l. more, no further Proceeding. - That Smythwycke brought Burrowes 70 l. Part of the 100 l. - The Cause yet deferred; - Brought the other 30 l. to Hunt, who, Burrowes said, had most Part of the Money. The former Part of the Decree now again questioned, Smythwicke demanded his Money. - Hunt, - That he had disbursed it for my Lord, and given my Lord Accounts for it. Hunt advised Smythwycke to petition my Lord, to have Leave to sue Hunt for this Money. - That Hunt promising the Repayment of the Money. -

That he received, from Boroughe and Hunt, all his Money again, but

20 l. which kept from him a Year, and then repaid him by Hunt.

A Paper of Direction delivered in from Churchill: Which read.

Which sent to the Lords by Sir Ro. Phillippes; but they were risen before, and so the Messenger returned.

Mr. Mewtys: - Keeling a common Solicitor, Churchill a guilty Register. Fear of Punishment, and Hope to escape, may make them speak untruly. -

That a Servant to my Lord; an Eye and Ear-witness, for Four Years. That, in this Time, my Lord hath sown much good Seed of Justice; and that only the envious Man hath sown the Tares. - Moveth, whether this general Accusation fit to be sent up to the Lords, without particular Application.

Sir Ro. Phillippes: - That this fit for the Lords now.

Floyde's Patent.

Sir Ro. Floyde: - That he no Projector, nor ever was any : Will give his Voice against any ill Thing., Wisheth all his Life may be examined: Wisheth all the Kingdom heard him. Was neither Projector, nor Petitioner, in this Business ; Hath the Reference to the Lords, and learned Counsel; which never heard at the Committee, or here. - That the King hath granted this Patent, for Reformation of the Exactions of Proctors: Upon full Hearing of great Counsel, this granted. - That great learned Lawyers, and divers of the Judges, of Opinion for this Patent. That the Proctors maintained, by their Counsel, that the Subjects could not ingross their own Wills ; if they did, yet they were to pay them. That none complained, but the Proctors: No Subject complaineth. That this beneficial for avoiding Exactions. That he is to ingross more for 5 s. than is, in many other Offices, for 5 l. - Moveth, the Certificates may be heard read, and he be heard by his Counsel in this House, - Will make the Extortion of the Proctors appear.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - That the Patent unlawful; for the Liberty of the Subject taken away; and the Consequence dangerous; for then One may have all the Making of Bonds. To have the Question now upon the Lawfulness of the Patent in origine, not in executione.

Sir Edw. Sands: - To have the Certificates read; because some of those named by the Patentee as Referees, disclaim to have certified.

Sir Tho. Row: - That Sir Ro. Nanton denieth his joining.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That Secretary Nanton, of his Knowlege, joined. - The now Attorney no Referee; nor was to dispute the Warrant coming from Lord Chancellor, Chief Justice, and a Secretary of State. -

No Question, but the Law against this Patent. - Resolved, in Rolfe's Case; Davent's Case. - Against Magna Charta. - That, at the Committee, the Patentee's Counsel heard, and gave over the Defence of many Points -

Part of the King's Prerogative, to do no Wrong ; but, if he be deceived in his Grant, the Grant is void. - The Ingrossing of all Indentures, Bonds, &c. - One would have had the Making of all Indentures for Apprentices: Resolved by the Judges, not to be grantable.

Mr. Noye mentioneth, that Sir James Perrott said he would answer to no Tale. - Desireth to be freed from those Imputations. - That this Patent unlawful. The Extortion of the Proctors no Cause for this Provision : They are to be punished. - But to make a Law upon the Certificate of Two or Three Men is to need no Parliaments. -

5 R. II. many Ordinances made; whereof many good. These Ordinances, at the next Parliament, declared to be made against the Liberty of the Subject; which is, to make Laws by common Consent. All Laws, with us, by Prescription, or Act of Parliament. -

This to introduce a new Law. - By 21o H. VIII. 5 s. to be paid : This must stand. Now, by this Patent, 10s. more added. -

Against the common Liberty of every Man; who may write it himself, or get any other to do it. The Objection is, if loose, they would not be so truly done, as if a special Officer.

Resp. The Register, or the Affixer of the Seal, is to examine it, whosoever write it; and it resteth upon his Credit. -

This extendeth not to the King's Seal; as Subpoenas, &c. - Difference between Distribution there, where the Seal here: - Which every Company doth ; viz. to appoint who shall write to their Seal: - And every Man may refuse to seal a Writing, except such a Man write it. - The Bishop's Seal none of the King's. - The King, by this Reason, may appoint who shall write to all Companies, &c.

Ob. That this concerneth the Administration of Justice.

Resp. This no judicial Act, but a Testimony of a judicial Act. - So may grant, One Man only shall write all Evidences, &c.

That, by this Reason, One Man may have a Grant to write all Indentures which shall be inrolled,

Sir James Perrott explaineth himself, that he intended not any Man, by the Word, " Tale;" if he used any such Word. - That the Certificate may be sent for, whereunto Sir Ro. Nanton his Hand is subscribed.

Mr. Solicitor : - Satisfied that it cannot be defended, for this Patent, that the Subjects should not ingross their own Wills. -

That it appeareth in the last Certificate, Secretary Nanton differed from the Lord Chancellor, and Lord Treasurer; and it appeareth there, those Lords desired the Opinions of other Judges ; which not done, through the Haste of the Patentees. - To have an Act conceived, whereby the Law may be explained, that all Men may, at their Pleasure, write their own Wills.

Upon Question, Resolved, The Patent, to Sir Robert Floyd, of the sole Ingrossing of Wills and Inventories, a Patent of Grievance, in the Original, and Execution; without One Negative.

Sir J. Perrott, Mr. Alford, and Mr. Secretary: - Not to put out Sir Ro. Floyde, for propounding this Patent; the rather, because no Offence in the Execution, as in Monpesson's Case.

Mr. Noye, concordat; the rather, because he said he did it for a publiek Good. - Misconusant of the Law: - Advised, as he was, by Counsel. - An Error in the Law. - This a dangerous Example. - No Complaint of the Mis-execution.

Sir D. Digges, accordant: - Mens Names, as his own, may be used in Patents. - To suspend him only, as Mr. Bridges was.

Sir Edw. Coke . - Ever inclinable to Mercy. - Concurreth with Sir D. Digges. - That Mr. Bridges discountenanced this Patent, yet sequestered. - Ignorantia juras non excusat: Legis excusat, si nescit faemina, miles, clericus, et cultor; judex sibi pascit, et ultor. - Sir Ro. Floyde, though a Knight, yet no Soldier. - Spake long. - Inter utrumque vola: in medio tutissima virtus. - To suspend him.

Sir Geor. Moore: - Heretofore questioned, whether he should be of the House, or not: Not yet resolved.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle moveth, Mr. Bridges may be restored.

Mr. Solicitor: - If a Projector, to be removed. - He denieth himself to have been a Projector. - To have him suspended, till he clear himself to be a Projector.

Mr. Shervyle: - This a great Offence in Sir Ro. Floyde,

though not the prime Projector. - He hath taken Fees ; which being against the Law, a Grievance in the Execution.

Sir Geo. Chaworth :-Knoweth this is in Project in the Court 12 Years sithence. - So no Projector, but a Prosecutor.

Mr. Mallett: - If this a Project of Ten Years old, and none would meddle with it sithence, he the more worthy to be put out. - Remembereth his Boldness in defending this Cause, after the Grand Committee had judged it a Grievance.

Sir Wm. Herberte:- That he a Projector; and hath followed it with more Violence, than any other. - Heard the King, at Hampton Court, more inveigh against this Patent, than ever did against any other. - Glad, for the Honour of his Country, his Life not ripped up.

Mr. Recorder: - Great Use of this Debate. - Must either be removed, or not suspended : Cannot be suspended ; for nothing else to be done. - He defends, and executeth it. - If we will hear him no more, then not to suspend him; to remove him.

Mr. Mallory: - Satisfied, he a Projector.

Mr. Price: - Glad, as Sir Wm. Herberte, his Life not ripped up. - His Country sent him not; serveth for another.

Floyde expelled.

Upon Question, Sir Ro. Floyde to be removed out of the House for being a Projector, and Maintainer, of this Patent.

Exactions of Proctors.

Sir Edw. Coke, Mr. Noy, Mr. Mallett, Sir Geor. Moore, Sir Jo. Walter, Mr. Crew, Mr. Digges, Mr. Recorder, Mr. Taylor, Sir Jo. Trevor, Mr. Shervyle, Mr. Solicitor, Mr. Brooke, Sir Edwyn Sands, to meet, for framing a Bill against the Exactions of Proctors, the first Day of the next Meeting, in the Temple Hall,

Light-houses.

To hear the Counsel for Light-houses, this Afternoon.

Constables of Yorkshyre.

The Constables for Yorkeshyre to be heard also this Afternoon.

Floyde's Sentence.

Sir Ro. Floyde called to the Bar (not kneeling) Mr. Speaker pronounceth his Sentence; That he is to be no longer any Member of this House, but to be removed; and that his Patent a Grievance in the Original.

Post meridiem.

Illegal Patents.

SIR Edw. Coke . - That the Patent of old Debts, 16 Jac. - Henry Lucas, and Edmonde Duncombe : - A Commission of old Debts: - And Symon Chambers Two Patents: One, 15 Jac. to Edw. Ramsey, for Dispensation with Tillage. - Sir Henry Britayne.

A Grant of Recognizances in Court of Record, to Sir Peter Saltonstall.

A Composition for mortgaged Lands, granted to Sir Walter Tichborne.

All these to be warned, against Friday next, and to bring in their Patents.

- That all Proceedings upon Patents, which are against the King's Book, shall be suspended.

Ordered, Tipper's, Patent, or Commission, shall be brought in; and he be warned to appear upon Friday next.

Adjournment.

Sir Edw. Sands; - To know when the Lords will break up. That we mau appoint a Time accordingly.

Sir Ro. Phillippes, accordant:

So Sir D. Digges.

Sir Ed. Mountague, contra:

So Sir Tho. Wentworth.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - No hurt, to send now to them.

Mr. Brooke, contra.

Mr. Secretary : - We to break up when we will; and the Lords so likewise : - For to break up both together savoureth too much of Prorogation.

Upon Question, Resolved, the Messenger now shall make Motion to the Lords, about the Time of their adjourning of their House. The Message sent accordingly.

Concealments.

Sir Edw. Coke reporteth the Bill against Concealments,with the Alterations, and Amendments. -

That the Solicitor required a Saving for a Duty of 2d. upon a Chaldron of Sea-coal, from the Town of Newcastell.

Sir Tho. Ryddall, - for this Saving. - The King hath granted this 2d. a Chaldron, successively to divers, one after another.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That, by the Statute 9 H. V. 10. 2d. due to the King upon every Chaldron.

Mr. Brooke, - for the Ingrossing of the Bill, with the Proviso.

Sir Tho. Trevor, contra: - For that this 2d. granted away, and was never received before or sithence the Statute 9 H. V.

Mr. Wyld: - To have a Saving of all Suits depending.

Sir Edw. Coke : - That Mr. Solicitor required a Saving for no more Suits, but for this ; which grounded upon an Act of Parliament. - Marquis of Exceter attainted, - That Typper made a Case of it: - No Office to be found : - He pressed Typper, and he found it out,

Upon Question, not to be re-committed.

Upon Question, to be ingrossed.

Stewart's, &c. Nat.

Mr. Fanshawe reporteth the Bill for Naturalization of Sir Francis Stewart, &c.

Titchborne's Patent.

Sir Rich. Tichborne undertaketh Sir Wa. Tichborne shall bring in his Patent at the Beginning of the next Meeting : And Ordered, It shall not be brought in till then.

Light-houses Patent.

Mr. Speaker: - That the Legality of these Patents, and the Conveniency, to be considered of. - The King's Right; the Lord Admiral's Right; and the Trinity-house Right.

Mr. Holt: - That they of Counsel with all the Mariners and Merchants. - That divers Mariners, by reason of these Impositions, fled, and gone into those Parts where Trade of more Account.

That the Patent for Light-houses at Winterdonnesse, l. Superfluous, unnessary, and prejudicial: For that, above Twelve Months before, a Light-house, better than this, maintained ; begun Twelve Months before, and finished Six Months before; erected at the Charge of 600 l. at the Request of the Mariners; and a Light maintained in it. Six Months before. -

That this erected, as soon as any Need discovered of any Light-house there. This done, without any Taxation.

Agreed, that a Light house here at Winterden, with Lights in it, Six Months before; and a new erected within Six Foot of it sithence. -

That 3s. 4d. is now demanded; where but 6d. given voluntarily, and nothing exacted.

Mr. Davys: - That this Patent good for the Commonwealth. -

That the former Light-house made before that of the Patentees; but never (notwithstanding their Power, by 8 Eliz. to do it) undertook any thing in it, till they heard the King intended to make this Grant. -

That they take Six Times as much as the Trinity-house offered to take for -

Mr. Davys: - That the necessary Charge of these Lights, 350 l. per Annum.

That the 6d. upon a Ton, will not maintain the Lights.

The Patent of Dongeon-nesse read.

- That they keep sometimes no Light at all, and ordinarily such a Light as giveth no Light. - This prejudicial, more than if no such Light-house there; because, when expected, and none, more Danger, than if never any.

Mr. Gerrard: - If this Patent impose upon the Subject, will disclaim in it. - None erected there, from 8 Eliz. till 15 Eliz. - The Merchants, in respect of the daily Losses, were Suitors, for a Light-house to be erected at Dongeon-nesse. - That the Lords of the Council, upon the Petition of the Merchants, calling the Trinity-house, and they refusing to erect it, appointed a Light-house to be erected by Sir Francis Howard; the Recompence, such as the Merchants voluntarily offered.

Mr. Brooke, upon both these Patents: - That the Trinity-house neglecting, for 50 Years, the Erecting of these Houses, therefore the King, parens patriae, might provide for the Erection. - Moveth, if these Lights necessary, and well granted, and the Rate too high, then this House to moderate that. - Not to transfer the Lights from those Patentees to the Trinity-house.

Mr. Neale. - For the Patent of Dungeon-nesse. - That those of the West Ports find this a great Grievance; not useful to divers; but bring Pilots with them, and trust not to these Lights. - That, by this Means, the Strangers leave the Ports, only for Avoiding of these Charges. That they of the Western Ports, come not near this Place of Dongeon-nesse. Mr. Lovell, contra.

Sir Rich. Worseley: - That a plain Misinformation; for but 1 d. yielded to; 2 d. in the Patent.

Mr. Lyster : - Never any of the Out-ports consented.

- That these Patentees take 2 d. at first, whether the Ship return, or not.

Mr. Hackwill: - If these Patents should scape being questioned here, they would multiply ; For Certificates (such as those whereupon that for Winterdon-nesse granted) may easily be gotten.- - The Cobbe of Lyme hath an Act of Parliament: So the Pier of Dover. - The Consent of Merchants ought not to bind the Commons of England. - Not to put out these Lights. To suspend our Opinions yet; and to have a Law drawn to tie the Trinity-house to take but 6 d. as they offer.

Sir Edw. Sackvyle: - If Use of Lights, the King's Prerogative. - This to be done, upon the Merchants voluntary Offer, - That the Trinity-house not fit to be trusted. That the Trinity-house informed the King, the Carriages to the Spaniards not prejudicial. These dangerous Referees.

Sir Edw. Coke: - That both these Patents void, without Question :

1. Because this requireth Skill (as 8 Eliz. saith) therefore not to be granted to any unskilful. - Quod non valet in principali, non valet in consequenti: Therefore, making a Deputy, in this Case, that hath Skill, helped not. - Granting this, where it concerneth Life, not Lawful to ignorant Men. - The Loadstone not known in former Times. -

A Grant for Years (this being a Thing of Trust) void. An Executor cannot take it. The Lessee here might be outlawed, then his Interest gone. Queen Eliz. would not grant it, but to Men of Skill; and by Act of Parliament, not by Patent. -

That at Winterdon void ; because, at the Time of the Patent, another House there built. - The Petition not considerable. - No Imposition fitting, especially for the Benefit of a Subject. - Not to determine this now. - The Gentleman to have his Money again. - Not to trust the Trinity-house, without Overseers. - These Lights to be maintained by Act of Parliament, and Overseers, in those Counties, of such principal Men. - A Penalty upon the Trinity-men, upon their Default, to be to the Use of the poor Mariners of that Coast.

Sir Ro. Phillippes reporteth from the Lords: That they acknowledge the great Care of the House in these important Businesses. - Thanks for the Correspondence of this House with them : - Assure the like from them for ever to this House, in these, and all other Things : - Will advise, and return Answer herein, as soon as possible. Bills and Sir James Perrott moveth, a Committee may take a Grievances. View of the Bills and Grievances, and put them in Order before our Recess.

Sir Ro. Phillippes, and Mr. Hackwill, accordant.

A Course for this, To-morrow-Morning, resolved.