THIRTEENTH DAY.
Wednesday, 19th July 1882.
Present:
The Right Honourable the Earl of Derby, Chairman.
His Grace the Duke of Bedford, K.G.
The Right Hon. Viscount Sherbrooke.
The Right Hon. Sir Richard Assheton Cross,
G.C.B., M.P.
Sir Sydney H. Waterlow, M.P.
Mr. Alderman Cotton, M.P.
Mr. Walter H. James, M.P.
Mr. Pell, M.P.
Mr. Thomas Burt, M.P.
Mr. H. D. Warr, Secretary.
The following gentlemen attended as a deputation
from Magee College, Londonderry: the Rev. J. M.
Rodgers, M.A., John Cooke, Esq., and Professor
Dougherty, M.A The deputation was introduced by
the following gentlemen: Sir Thomas McClure, M.P.,
Mr. Lea, M.P., Dr. Kinnear, M.P., Mr. T. A. Dickson,
M.P., Mr. James Dickson, M.P., Mr. John Givan,
M.P., Mr. William Findlater, M.P., Mr. J.N. Richardson, M.P., Mr. William Shaw, M.P.
2120. (Chairman, to Sir Thomas McClure.)—We
should be happy to hear what you have to say on
behalf of the college whose interests are represented
by this deputation.
(Sir Thomas McClure.) We attend with a
deputation from Londonderry, who desire to submit
the claims of Magee College to your consideration
in any arrangement for the allocation of the funds
arising from the estates of the city livery companies. The constitution and position of the college
will be submitted to you by members of the deputation. It is only necessary for me to add that this
college is the only place affording higher education in
the north-west of Ireland. It is most convenient for
persons coming from the counties of Londonderry,
Donegal, Tyrone, and the northern part of Antrim,
the populations of which counties are of the same
class as those who send their sons to the universities
in Scotland. I may remark also that it appears to me
that at the present time it is of importance to encourage farmers to send their sons to college to obtain
a liberal education rather than to attempt to subdivide
their farms. These sons might thus become useful
members of the community in other professions, at
home and abroad. Many of the sons of farmers in
Scotland who have obtained education at the universities in that country have not only gained high
positions for themselves but have rendered good
services to the empire in different parts of the world.
The professors in Magee College at the present time
are all men of undoubted high character and high
standing in their different departments; but several
other professorships are urgently required in order
fully to equip the college. On a former occasion I
called your Lordship's attention to the purposes and
objects for which the grants of these estates were
made, and surely it would be a fair and proper adaptation of a portion of the funds, and in accordance
with the intention of the founders so to apply them as
to enable the trustees to provide greater facilities for
literary and scientific instruction, and thus to make
the college a credit to the citizens of London, and
honourable to the county of Londonderry, which
bears the name of London. There are three gentlemen here present, who are trustees of the college.
One of them is Mr. Dickson, member for the county
of Tyrone, another is Mr. Givan, member for Monaghan, and the third is the Rev. James Maxwell Rodgers, of Londonderry. Our friends here have kindly
accompanied me in order to show their sympathy in
the movement, and amongst others our friend from
county Cork has been kind enough to come forward.
(Chairman.) We shall be happy to hear anything
they have to tell us.
(Rev. J. M. Rodgers.) My Lord, it so happens that
of the trustees who are present, I am the oldest, that
is to say I have been the longest time in that office.
In addition to myself Mr. Givan is a trustee, but he
was appointed only a month ago. Mr. Dickson,
member for the county Tyrone, and Mr. John Cooke
were appointed about two years ago. I have been
appointed for about seven years. The duty therefore
has devolved upon me of speaking in the name of the
trustees. I only regret that a person more able has
not had that service to render. Our original trustees
have unfortunately all died out, and as they were the
men who had to bear all the great labour in connexion
with originating the college as well as receiving the
trust funds, none of us yet know as well as they did
all the interests of the concern. I may say that this
whole organisation may be traced back to the year
1844. If the Queen's colleges and the Queen's University had been established at that time, the Magee
College I think never would have existed at all. In
the year 1844 the General Assembly committed themselves to a great undertaking in the interest of higher
education. A lady making her will (she was the
widow of one of our own ministers) left 20,000l. for
the purpose; one of our own ministers soon afterwards gave 10,000l. to increase the capital, and after
this capital had lain past for a few years, the annual
proceeds being added to the principal, the trustees
began to see their way towards opening the institution.
The Honourable the Irish Society have acted towards
the college with very great consideration and liberality
and were the very first of all the companies to do
anything for it. It is a pleasure here, and now, to be
in a position to bear testimony to those high and
valuable services, without which indeed it is very
likely that we might not have been here at all. The
trustees, under the authority of the Lord Chancellor,
had the right to choose the place in which this institution should be placed, and they selected Londonderry
when it came to be open to them to build the structure
simply because there was in the north-west of Ireland
no place for higher education. A very respectable
constituency gathers around Londonderry, first of
all we have the whole county of Donegal with a
population of 260,000, then we have the whole county
of Tyrone with a population of 197,000, nearly the
half of the county of Antrim with its population of
421,000, all the county of Derry with its population
of 164,000, and the City, with, as nearly as possible,
30,000. This institution, placed in the city of
Londonderry for the sake of this constituency, has
four professorships in literature and science. As I
have said already the Honourable the Irish Society
have treated the institution with great generosity all
along. I may here say that one of their benefactions
was the endowment of the professorship of natural
philosophy and mathematics, and the professor in that
chair is called by the name of the Honourable the
Irish Society, that is one of their benefactions.
Among these four professors one is a fellow of the
Royal University of Ireland, two have been appointed
by the Senate of the Royal University, examiners in
mathematics and in ancient classics, and of the
professors three have been selected by the Board of
Commissioners for Intermediate Education to conduct
the examinations for that board. I mention these
facts to show that the men who teach under this
trust are men whose attainments are recognised
generally, and who are recognised all over the country,
in the learned professions, as men who can take
their stand beside their associates in similar spheres.
These gentlemen conduct their classes entirely in subjection to the scheme approved by the Lord Chancellor and recorded formally in court. We have a
copy of that scheme which is available for examination,
and one of the special characteristics of it is, that all
those classes are to be conducted on such a plan that they
are open to students of every religious denomination,
nothing occurring in any of the classes at variance with
absolute unsectarianism. In regard to our endowments,
I have already mentioned the source of some of them.
Our income last year was about 2,500l., this includes the
income that we receive annually from the Honourable
the Irish Society. We have a grant at present of
150l. a year, which that society gives for our incidental
expenses. To their own professor they have more
recently given 50l. a year for extra work, and for
three years, just beginning, they have given him 50l.
a year for house-rent (in reference to that matter I
may be permitted to speak immediately) but in
addition to this 2,500l. a year of income, we have
within the last year increased our capital by about
7,000l. We have received 2,000l. from the son of an
old County Derry man (who has prospered in Australia),
with a view to the establishment of scholarships in the
college, and we are collecting, for the building of
dwelling-houses for our professors, a fund of which
we have already raised the half. The fund will reach
10,000l. by the time it is finished. But in connexion
with the advantage taken of the institution I need
say nothing more than that we have been under
the greatest possible disadvantages until quite recently. First of all, no examining body recognized
our college course, nor indeed anybody, except the
General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in
Ireland. No university recognized our class tickets
as entitling students to compete for degrees, and our
students, whenever they distinguished themselves very
much with us, at once left us and went away to a
college that could give them a degree, and where they
could have such a connection with a university, as
secured to them the rank which learned men like to
have as they travel over the world. That some of our
students, however, were thus able to acquit themselves
is plain, because one of them, only the other day, took
the Hebrew Sizarship in Trinity College Dublin, undergoing an examination in which he had to meet with
the very weightiest competition; another is professor of
astronomy in one of the universities, after having left
us and gone to Queen's College and carried off very
high honours at Cambridge. Three of our students
have left us quite lately to go to Queen's College,
Belfast to get a degree, and one has gone to Cambridge
where he has carried off very high honours. At the
very first matriculation examination for the Royal
University, which was held last December, one of our
students took the highest place and "first class
honours," and another took a place second only to
that, and every man we sent in to compete for the
matriculation examination passed, with the exception
of two. I may further state that the opening of the
Royal University has told very considerably in our
favour. In the years 1878 and 1879, our students
were 33 matriculated and 85 non-matriculated; in the
next year 35 matriculated and 37 non-matriculated; in
the next year 43 matriculated and 92 non-matriculated;
last year there were 47 matriculated and 75 nonmatriculated; that being the largest entrance we have
ever had, and I may say that this year, we have,
already, guarantees from different parts of the country
in regard to young men coming to us, so that we shall
have a much larger entrance this year than any we
have ever had hitherto. The Intermediate Education
Act has served us very materially also. According
to Thom's Almanack there are some 16 intermediate
schools which have existed for several years past in
the County Derry, but anyone of us coming from
that neighbourhood knows, that 8 or 10 new schools
have been established within recent months, some of
them doing very valuable work in regard to the intermediate education of young people and the consequence
is, that from the farming class a great many people
are sending their sons to school, because there is a
hope of being able to acquire learning just at the door,
and with the college at Derry, or with the possibility
of studying without going to any college at all, the
Royal University offers them an opportunity of taking
degrees which will give them a position among the
educated and qualify them for the Civil Service. If
I am not trespassing too much upon your time I
should like to say, that in connexion with the requirements of the Royal University our staff is quite
incapable of doing the amount of work that is necessary.
The Royal University with a view to its degrees and
honours, requires a good deal in the way of modern languages, we have no stated teacher of modern languages;
our faculty appoint a tutor from year to year, but we
have not a stated tutor; secondly, we have no teacher of
natural science. I do not speak now of natural philosophy or chemistry, but of mineralogy in its various
departments,—botany, and matters of that kind,—and
these departments are made very much of in the
course of the Royal University. We can put in a
copy of the statutes, and Acts of Parliament, which
will evidence what the university requires. I might
venture to say that in connexion with our present
position and with the various disadvantages under
which we labour, the work we have done has been
very much recognised. I shall call your Lordship's
attention to only one matter, namely, that the Gilchrist trustees (Dr. William B. Carpenter, as everyone
who knows anything in science knows, is the secretary)
have twice contributed to the purchase of instruments
and apparatus for this college, with a view to recognise
the high idea they have of the valuable service which
has been rendered by the Honourable the Irish
Society's professor of mathematics and natural philosophy to the cause of education in science, and a
letter from Dr. Carpenter is here, in which he testifies
to it, and if your Lordship will allow me, I shall lay
this letter before you. I may mention that Dr.
Fullerton, the gentleman in Sydney who has so succeeded, and to whom I have already referred, has
out of consideration to our work given 2,000l. It has
not been put into his will, but it has been handed
over in solid money now, and within a month it is
likely to be available in the hands of the trustees.
1,000l. of it is by Dr. Fullerton's requirement to be
devoted to a scholarship for a young man who is
studying for the medical profession. He insists that
that young man who gets his scholarship shall take a
degree in arts before entering the medical classes,
because he says that the value of a complete education
in arts to a medical man can scarcely be over-estimated, and it has been already suggested that with
the opportunities we have through a very large hospital, a very large workhouse and an immense lunatic
asylum, there would be very great advantages for
medical students acquiring that medical knowledge,
and it is already on the cards that we shall have a
medical school in connexion with the college. It is
very satisfactory to us to come here, not making any
charge against anybody and not in antagonism to any
person, but we have recently seen that high legal
authority has indicated that the income of the London
guilds is public money.
2121. Who has stated that ?—"High legal authority," I say. We do not commit ourselves to it, for
we do not know a single thing about it, but we have
heard that this Commission is sitting with a view of
seeing what is to be done in the case, and we think
it is right that our work should be known to you, when
other colleges in England are speaking about these
funds, and should the Government take the matter in
hand, we think that we who live on the very place
where the rents are paid, ought not be altogether left
out or overlooked, and we determined that it should not
be our fault if we were. I thank you very much for
having heard me. Mr. Cooke has some observations
to make bearing upon one or two points, if your Lordship will kindly hear him.
(Mr. Cooke.) My Lord and gentlemen, I rise
to supplement the argument of Mr. Rodgers, by
saying, that Derry is the centre of the north-west of
Ireland, having a population around it entirely or
almost entirely composed of farmers and farmers of
the middle class; there are no extremely wealthy men
amongst them, or perhaps there may be some few, but
the great majority in the counties are men to whom
money is an object; they are men who can afford to
pay their way, to pay their rents when they are due,
to make the best of the opportunities they have, but
are very chary about parting with a single sixpence
unless they know where it is going to. As Sir
Thomas McClure said, in the north of Ireland there is
no room for the development of the farming industry.
If a man has two sons, only one can hope to succeed
him; the second must look elsewhere for pushing his
way in life. For that object it is a necessity, and it
is extremely important, that education should be
cheap and easily attainable to this class of people.
This has been well recognised by the people in the
north-west. The Irish Society in their liberality and
in their connexion with the north-west of Ireland,
have given large sums repeatedly in recognition of
this necessity. The merchants (there are not very
many but there are a few) who have made money
have given largely out of their means for the same
object. Mr. Rodgers has stated that this college is
endowed with 20,000l.; it has also got several other
endowments; the merchants of Derry and other friends
are now raising some 7,000l. or 10,000l. to supplement
the same. I might also say that realising the same
necessity before the Intermediate Education Act came
into existence they subscribed largely, in which again
the Irish Society aided them, towards the institution
which is called the Academical Institution, which provides high intermediate education, and which has been
most successful with the boys who have been sent
forward to the intermediate examinations, I may also
say that the Fishmongers' Company (which I believe
is one of the guilds that is being inquired into) have
also in a measure, though in a small measure, recognised the same obligation by giving 200l. towards the
building fund of the Magee College. The Ironmongers'
Company in a measure, though in a small degree, recognise the same obligation, by giving a scholarship of
25l. a year for students who are sons of tenants upon
their estates.
Now I might say, that the guilds deriving a large
amount of revenue from the county of Londonderry,
the city of Londonderry being the nearest place where
the sons of tenants on their estates can hope to receive
high education at reasonable expense, we think it is not
unreasonable to ask, if their moneys or their income is
being dealt with, that you should recommend that a certain portion of their income should be awarded towards
making education (both intermediate and higher) in the
city of Londonderry cheap and available to the citizens
and to the farmers in the neighbourhood. I may just
mention (and these facts I take from Thom's Almanac,
which is recognised in Ireland as an authority upon most
subjects) that the valuation of the companies' estates in
the County Derry is 65,000l. annually, this deals with
companies owning land at present in County Derry. I
may also mention, though it would not be overlooked
by you probably if I did not mention it, that six of
the companies took away their property by the sale
of their land in County Derry. There are 12 companies altogether, and we think that we have a reasonable claim upon the money, or funds, of those 12
companies; not merely on the six that at present
hold but upon the 12, and that it is not unreasonable
on our part to ask that the landlords of a large portion of the county of Londonderry should recognise
their obligations by endeavouring to make education
cheap for the people, not only on their own estates
but in the surrounding counties. I do not wish to
occupy your time, but I have got the particulars of
the population and also of the electorate of these three
or four counties, showing how large a number of agricultural people there are on those estates. I may say
that the total electorate of these three counties is
made up of farmers. If it were necessary I could
give you the figures, but I think my object is fully
attained by telling you that the population is largely,
or nearly altogether, composed of farmers; and that
it is a great object to them to get education easily
within their reach. I might mention also that in
the past the people in the north-west of Ireland had
no alternative but to allow their sons to go elsewhere,
that is, the great bulk of them; a certain portion who
were perhaps in a better position would be able to
send their sons to Queen's College, or to Edinburgh,
and it is well known to every Englishman, that
those Irishmen have held their own; and there are
very few large towns in England or Scotland, or
country districts, in which Irishmen do not occupy
good positions in the medical and other professions;
The want of education has been the means of
driving out of the north of Ireland the best portion
of our community, for they had no alternative (not
having education within their reach which would
enable them to enter into competition with Englishmen and Scotchmen) but to go to England or to
America, and the most successful who have gone to
America have been from the north of Ireland; and
if education were cheap at home I think they would
be retained at home, and the country would not be
the loser.
(Mr. Givan, M.P.) As a trustee of this college I
desire to add one word to the statements that have
already been made by Mr. Rodgers and Mr. Cooke.
They are both of them so thoroughly conversant with
this subject that I do not think I have anything to add
further than this; that I have been watching the
career of this college for a considerable time, indeed
since its foundation, and I have had ample opportunities of knowing the influence that it has exercised
over education, not only in the neighbourhood of Derry
but in the adjoining counties. I may say to your
Lordship this, that there is a tradition, I will put it
on no higher ground, amongst the people of Derry
and the adjoining counties that these estates were
originally granted, I suppose primarily for the benefit
of the undertakers, but at all events in a secondary
degree and in a very large degree indeed for the purpose of benefiting the County Derry and the north of
Ireland generally, and I should say that if the whole
of these estates should be realized and the funds taken
away from the north of Ireland it will certainly produce
an amount of irritation that would be disagreeable and
inconvenient. I may also say that we have a notion
amongst ourselves in Ulster, that whatever remedial
legislation may be given to Ireland, unless our people
are elevated by education, the remedial legislation will
really fail to accomplish what we know the English
people desire, namely to bring Ireland upon a level
with England.
2122. You say that there would be a strong feeling
if these funds were taken away from Ireland ?—Yes.
2123. Have they never been expended in Ireland ?
—Yes, to some extent they have. One of the things
that has been causing irritation for a very long series
of years is the fact that this money has been taken
away from time to time from Ireland and expended
in London and I think I speak what is within the
knowledge of every person conversant with the feeling
in Derry that there has been for a great many years
beyond my memory altogether, a very large amount
of ill feeling in consequence of these funds being taken
away and spent in London as they have been.
2124. Do you mean on the general ground that all
money derived from Ireland ought to be spent in
Ireland, or upon the more particular ground that it is
trust money?—On both grounds I should say. Your
Lordship is very well aware that there has been a
good deal of talk about absenteeism, but the concentration of that feeling has to a large extent been upon
the London companies; it has been intensified by
their unique position with regard to landlordism, and
as I have said before there has been that feeling
existing, but if there were a prospect of this money
being absolutely and irrecoverably taken away from
Ireland and devoted to purposes in England, whether
educational or otherwise, there would be a feeling left,
at all events in Derry more strongly than in the other
counties, which would not be eradicated for a considerable time. I do not say one word by way of
recrimination against the London companies, because
I think as a rule they have acted as fairly as other
good landlords throughout Ireland upon large estates,
but we all know this that upon the estates of some of
the companies the rents have not been much below
the actual full letting value of the lands including the
tenants' improvements, and inasmuch as these rents
have been taken away for a long series of years from
the tenants, I do think it would be but justice that
when the capitalised sum which must accrue from the
annual income derived from the tenants' improvements
as well as the original value of land comes to be
realized, that a large portion, a very large portion,
I should say, not a large proportion, but a large sum,
and a substantial sum, ought to be given for the
essential purpose of education in Derry (a purpose
essential not only to Derry, but to the adjoining
counties mentioned by Mr. Rodgers, the population of
which has been given to your Lordship) and for the
support of this most excellent and useful institution.
(Mr. Shaw, M.P.) I may perhaps be considered an
interloper, but I happened to be in Parliament during
the late Administration, and took a very great part in
helping forward the Royal University Bill, and one
of the principal arguments I was able to bring to bear
upon the then Government, and one that weighed with
my own mind, was this institution. It was situated
in a district that I knew myself thoroughly as one
of the most intelligent districts perhaps (for a middle
class farming population) in the three kingdoms, and
there could be no possible centre more thoroughly
fitted for educational purposes, or one to which, in
fact, if the facilities were afforded, the people would
more readily come in to be benefited by such education. Now evidently this institution has done an
immense deal with its very limited means. I am not
going to raise any question here about the rights of
property and how this property of the London companies is to be distributed, probably that would lead
to a discussion, but I understand that you, as a Commission, have this question under your consideration.
I am quite sure that the gentlemen who sit round this
table, and who are on this Commission, will take a
wise and a generous view of the question. I cannot
myself think of any object which would more commend itself to every one, outside putting money into
a man's own pocket, which I suppose these companies
will hardly do with, at all events, the whole of it.
I suppose that there is a proportion of this money at
any rate which you will decide does not naturally go
into their pockets, and if there is any such proportion
I do not think there could possibly be any distribution
of this money that would be more permanently useful
than in endowing chairs and giving greater facilities
in this college. I myself know the professors, many
of them are men of high standing, and they are working against great odds, but now their path has been
opened, they are now affiliated, as it were, to this
university, and I believe that their career will reflect
great credit on themselves and diffuse great benefits
in the districts around.
2125. (Sir S. Waterlow.) Professor Rodgers told
us, I think, that the object of Magee College was to
give a collegiate education at a small sum; can you
tell us what sum the pupils now pay, and if there is
more than one class the different payments to each
class.
(Rev. J. M. Rodgers.) In the first place I am not
one of the professors but one of the trustees, and in
addition I may say that this place has been constantly
misrepresented before the public as simply an intermediate school with one class, or two or three classes
in one hand. It is of quite a different structure and
of quite a different order. It is such a college as you
find associated with an English university in which a
full curriculum in arts is the ordinary course pursued
by each student who enters, and in reference to that
matter, in the calendar which I now put in as part of
the evidence we give there is a statement made of the
fees, and any nobleman or gentleman that wishes for
particular information will find it here, everything in
fact about the college is here. Speaking generally the
fee for each class is 2l. or 2l. 2s.
2126. How much would a student going through
the college have to pay per annum ?—About 7l. 7s.
per annum. It depends altogether upon the number
of classes that he takes, but that would be about the
amount.
(Professor Dougherty.) Perhaps you will allow me,
as I am conversant with the internal arrangements of
the college, to answer the question. During the first
year the fees amounted to 9l. 8s. 6d. per head. Each
student who takes the full course pays 9l. 8s. 6d. for
the session of six months. That does not include the
fee for modern languages when a class of modern
languages exists; the fee for that class is 2l. 2s. in fact
2l. 2s. is the usual fee for each class.
2127. It is a fact that the majority of the students
in Magee College are preparing for the ministry of the
Presbyterian church?—That is an undoubted fact,
and for this reason, that up to the present time, that
is to say until the foundation of the Royal University, our undergraduate classes and the certificates
possessed by students who passed through them were
not recognised by any public body save the General
Assembly of the Irish Presbyterian church.
2128. May I ask whether the Presbyterian congregations generally in Ireland have contributed
towards the support of the college by founding professorships, or by endowments or by annual contributions, and if so, whether a fair proportion of
them have so contributed ?—You are perhaps not aware
that the Presbyterian Church in Ireland has a
theological college in Belfast specially designed for the
training of Presbyterian ministers, and the liberality of
the Presbyterian Church, and the congregations of
the Presbyterian Church, has naturally flowed in
the direction of that particular institution.
2129. May the Commission infer from that that the
Presbyterian congregations, owing to what you have
stated, have not generally contributed to any extent in
support of Magee College ?—I am not aware that
they have.
2130. (To Mr. Givan.) I think you referred to the
large holdings of the London companies in Derry, and
consequently to the claims which the college had upon
the rents of such holdings, did you not ?—Yes.
2131. Are you aware that the Commission have
already had representations made to them by tenants of
the London companies, and that two or three, speaking
for the rest, have declared that if they are to have
landlords in Ireland at all they prefer to have the
London companies, and that they should not sell their
"properties," are you of the same opinion?—I am
not of the same opinion, because I am very much in
favour of the London companies selling their estates
to the tenants, and the creation thereby of a peasant
proprietary; but I think you perhaps misapprehended
me. What I wish to point out is, that the liberality
of the companies now as landlords will cease if they
sell, and that there are no funds allocated for the
purpose of keeping up even the subscriptions that they
have been heretofore giving to local institutions.
2132. I will just put the question in another way.
In your opinion have the London companies, as
landlords, contributed more largely to such institutions
as Magee College and to schools and religious purposes
than ordinary landlords ?—I am not immediately
conversant with the matter, but as I understand they
have done so. It is my impression that they have. I
do not know the figure exactly, but I have always
understood that the Irish Society has been liberal and
that the companies have been exceedingly useful to
educational and local institutions.
2133. Then as landlords, relatively to other landlords, they have been more generous and contributed
much more largely, as I understand you?—That is
my belief, and that is why I exaggerate almost in my
mind the great loss that it would be in case they
should sell, and their influence and liberality be
entirely removed from the counties.
2134. Then may I take it that you wish to convey
to the Commission that if the lands are to continue
to be held by landlords, they had better be in the
nands of the London companies than in the hands
of other landlords ?—Certainly. I think they have
fulfilled their duties as a rule better than many others
of the landlords of Ireland.
2135. I suppose you wish to convey to us that in
your opinion it would be desirable to sell the lands
if they could be sold to tenants in occupation ?—Yes,
at a fair price.
(Mr. Cooke.) Might I be allowed to supplement
one or two remarks in reference to the questions of
Sir Sydney Waterlow. Sir Sydney Waterlow has
asked as to what the Presbyterian congregations do.
Now I for my part did not come here as one of the
deputation solely on account of Magee College, but
to advocate the claims of education generally; I do
not care of what denomination, whether Roman
Catholic, Episcopalian, or Presbyterian. If educational claims are going to be considered at all by this
Commission, then I think that the trustees of Magee
College have a reasonable ground on which to come
forward and to advocate the claims of that institution.
But Sir Sydney Waterlow has mentioned the word
Presbyterian, and said what have the Presbyterian
congregations done ? We here simply put forward
that Derry is the capital of the north-west of Ireland,
we do not say that Derry is the capital of the north
of Ireland. It would be rather presumptuous for us
to say that in presence of the great town of Belfast,
which has one college for no other purpose than
training young men for the Presbyterian ministry,
or rather in theology. That is the object of that
college, but around Londonderry, as we have said
already, there are three counties, the population of
which is agricultural; their means are limited and it
is as great a tax as they can possibly bear to support
the ministers of their own congregations. They have
been taxed perhaps, and they have given to keep the
ministers in their own localities as much as any
people in the world. They have given large sums
and are continually giving large sums in proportion
to their means, to support their own ministers. I
would like in relation to this point to give a few
figures. The Roman Catholic population of the
county Donegal is 157,000, the Episcopalian population of Donegal is 27,450, and the Presbyterian
population of Donegal is 20,780, the Presbyterian
population of Donegal being the least of the three.
But on the electorate for the county of Donegal (that is
men having a 12l. valuation and upwards) there are
5,000 in round numbers, of which the one half (2,500)
is to be found in that denomination which is in the minority. Now my argument in this is to prove that the denomination to which Sir Sydney Waterlow has referred
is purely and altogether agricultural, and occupying
such a position in the counties as render them likely
to avail themselves of such education as we think is
required, and a grant to us in aid of it would be highly
acceptable. In the county of Londonderry the population in round numbers is 173,000, of which the
Episcopalians number 32,000, the Presbyterians 58,000,
and the Roman Catholics 67,000. The total electorate for the county of Derry is something like 5,600
odd, in round numbers 6,000, out of which number
3,412 are Presbyterians, my argument being that
those are the people who are most likely to need assistance in the matter of intermediate and higher education. The same argument applies to the county of
Tyrone; and I think that considering the poverty, or
rather the want of riches, of this largely agricultural
population, it can scarcely be expected that such a
population should give large sums out of their pockets
towards education.
(Sir T. McClure.) I would like to add one word
with reference to what Sir Sydney Waterlow has
mentioned. I think I may say on behalf of the
tenants of Londonderry, that they would be very glad
to become the owners of their farms, and to purchase them, but they certainly would prefer that the
Companies should not sell to anyone else. They
would rather that the companies should remain as
their landlords than that they should sell to strangers.
Sir Sydney Waterlow has also asked some questions
as to the Presbyterians' subscriptions. Sir Sydney's
knowledge of the farmers of Londonderry, and altogether of the farming population and the Presbyterian population throughout the north of Ireland,
might lead him to consider that they have a great
deal to do. The Presbyterian Church supports several
missions at home and abroad and their own ministry
as well. The small farmers as a class are very highly
pressed on those matters.
The deputation withdrew.
MAGEE COLLEGE, LONDONDERRY.
Appendix A. Statement on Behalf of the College.
I. The Magee College, Londonderry, was opened in
1866. Derry has an increasing population and is the
capital of a wide district, the north-western counties of
Ireland, in which the Magee College is the only place
of higher education.
II. In the literary and scientific department of the
college there are professorships of Latin and Greek: of
Logic, Belles Lettres, and Rhetoric : of Metaphysics and
Ethics: and of Mathematics and Natural Philosophy.
The professor of Latin and Greek has been recently
elected a fellow of the Royal University. Two of the
professors have been examiners at the first matriculation examination of the Royal University, and three of
the professors have been appointed examiners by the
Intermediate Education Board.
The instruction given in the undergraduate classes
is suited to young men who, for any object, desire to
obtain a literary and scientific education; while all
scholarships and prizes, except where the donor has
imposed restrictions, are open to the competition of all
students, irrespective of denominational connexion.
III. The funds of the college have been derived from
private benefactions and public subscriptions.
The citizens of Derry have subscribed more than
7,000l. to the building fund.
The Honourable, the Irish Society of London, in
addition to subscribing 1,000l. to this fund, has endowed the chair of Mathematics and Natural Philosophy,
and contributes, at present, 150l. annually to the incidental expenses.
The Worshipful Company of Fishmongers gave 200l.
to the building fund, and the Worshipful Company of
Ironmongers has founded an exhibition of the annual
value of 25l.
IV. The Intermediate Education Act and the Act
establishing the Royal University have greatly improved the position of the college. The former has
increased the number of young men who prepare to
enter its classes. The latter has, for the first time,
enabled Magee College students, who have pursued the
prescribed course of study, to compete for honours and
obtain degrees at an Irish university.
V. Of the facilities thus provided, full advantage
cannot be taken till the teaching staff of the college is
increased. Under the scheme for the management of
the college, sanctioned by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, one professor teaches both Latin and Greek,
another, Mathematics and Natural Philosophy. No provision was made in the original scheme for the teaching
of chemistry, natural history, or modern languages. At
the date of the foundation of the college, the importance
of these subjects was not so fully recognised as at the
present time, and the funds at the disposal of the
trustees were not sufficient to provide an adequate endowment. Natural history has never been taught in
the college. The provision for instruction in modern
languages has been insufficient and precarious. The
professor of Mathematics and Natural Philosophy has
delivered occasional courses of lectures in chemistry,
which have been largely attended by non-matriculated
students. In recognition of the work thus done, the
Gilchrist trustees through their secretary, Dr. W. B.
Carpenter, have on two occasions made grants for the
purchase of scientific apparatus.
VI. The time has now come to make permanent provision for the teaching of these subjects which have a
prominent place in the curriculum of the Royal University. As the London guilds own valuable estates in
co. Derry, it is respectfully submitted to this Royal
Commission that the Magee College has a claim to be
considered in the allocation of that portion of the funds
of these companies available for educational purposes.
Appendix B.
Letter from Sir Edward Reid, Mayor of Derry.
Londonderry,
12th July 1882.
My Dear Professor Dougherty,
I Regret that it is out of my power to go to
London at present, owing to important duties connected with my office requiring my presence here.
It would give me pleasure to state before the Guilds
Commission that Magee College is to Londonderry and
the north-west of Ireland a very valuable institution,
and one in the prosperity of which I take a great
interest, subscribing and collecting funds for it and
encouraging attendance at its classes, especially in its
scientific department.
I would also testify, that, in my opinion, the encouragement Magee College has received from the London
companies is neither creditable to them nor proportionate
to its importance and usefulness. They were invested
with authority in county Derry for the good of the north
of Ireland, and especially of the plantation. How the
object aimed at could be better served than by the
advancement of education of the best and highest kind,
I am at a loss to discover. And as Presbyterians are
loyal, orderly and industrious, and alone in providing,
in the north-west, for the highest training and teaching,
there seems to be every reason why their efforts to
promote education should be fully acknowledged and
liberally aided.
We have a feeling that the guilds should have endowed "chairs" for teaching natural science and
modern languages at least—subjects that some persons
who are preparing for commerce wish to study; and
as the sons of many of the agricultural tenants of the
companies can, at Magee College, prepare for a professional life, without absenting themselves for a single
night from their parents' homes, till their university
course is finished, it seems natural that material assistance should be given, in other departments also, to an
institution that brings the higher education to the doors
of the people, and, in so far, contributes to diminish
the number who live by cultivating the land.
I am, &c.
Edward Reid, Kt.
Mayor of Derry.